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[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1294167702' post='2563253']
As I see it, this is a combination of poor foresight, misplaced trust (honestly, the writing on the wall should have indicated that Peggy was shady at best a long while ago), and the incredible childishness and immaturity of Peggy. Good luck on getting everything back up to par UPN and hopefully this will be a lesson about why some people simply can't be trusted (cynical, I know, but it's reality).
[/quote]

This sums it up quite nicely. Still, I can't help but feeling a little bad for UPN, and I hope they do get it sorted out. Peggy, shame on you. :mad:

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So... Peggy said you had until the 16th and then pulled it early, deleted the admin's backup account, left that picture, and tried to ransom off the database?

Yeah, that's pretty scummy. Good luck getting this sorted out.

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[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1294167784' post='2563255']
Even if what UPN did was stupid, how does that take the blame off of Peggy at all? You can get your car stolen by leaving the keys in it in a bad part of town, and sure you'd be an idiot for doing that, but the car thief is still scum.

This is extremely juvenile, and I wish UPN luck in sorting it out, even if it could have been prevented.

-Bama
[/quote]

In your analogy though, peggy actually owns the car, she just took what was rightfully hers. It would be like lending your car to your sister, then getting pissed at her for some stupid reason, finding out that the car you loaned her is currently in the parking lot of where she works, and just going over and taking it, leaving your sister high and dry. It's a !@#$%* move, but it's her damn car, if she wants to do that, she can.

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the only beef i've ever had with UPN was due to Peggy Sue...with that said, this makes me wish even more she was in my range...

there are some lines that are not supposed to be crossed and this is one of them...there's probly nothing worse in this game than to have important info/history deleted thanks to an idiot who wants payback...going rogue is one thing but this is way too far

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If the individual currently paying to host NoR's forum quit, took much of the government with him and proceeded to act in a manner that was generally hostile, you can bet we'd go looking for a new forum -- even if only one of those crappy free ones as a stopgap measure -- right away. We certainly wouldn't put it off for two or three weeks.

I'm not trying to blame the victim here. What happened was incredibly childish. However, it was also 100% legal.

All parties in this mess have come out of it looking a bit stupid.

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[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1294167784' post='2563255']
Even if what UPN did was stupid, how does that take the blame off of Peggy at all? You can get your car stolen by leaving the keys in it in a bad part of town, and sure you'd be an idiot for doing that, but the car thief is still scum.
[/quote]

A car thief, by definition, is not the one with legal title to the car. So even with my very limited understanding of the situation, I am afraid that is clearly a bad analogy. More like a repo-man was sent into action prematurely because the two parties couldnt even be civil to each other long enough to sort it out. The kind of case where, if it were to make it to court, the Judge would be likely to yell at them both pretty even-handedly.

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Also: can we [i]pleeaasseee[/i] stop with the absolutely awful and logically unsound analogies regarding cars? You may think they apply, but they really don't. Here is the only analogy that works: the original post and the following post made by bros, likewise UPN being a little to optimistic about trusting the "kindness" of Peggy. It's a pretty lengthy and choppy analogy, but it's the only analogous situation to this... not some !@#$@#$ car.

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I equate this with brand loyalty and "buy [insert your nationality here]" campaigns that have until fairly recently had an impact on car buyers' decisions. Thankfully more and more people are choosing their automobiles based on their quality and cost effectiveness. :)

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Oh Peggy, how far you have fallen. Well, that's not entirely accurate, you didn't have a long way to fall to hit rock bottom, but congratulations, by trying to selfishly take a community (Read: Forum) down with you, you hit it.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1294166548' post='2563234']
Huh? You will have to be more specific, as I doubt UPN had any obligations to NEW.

Clearly you think they should be disbanded, and clearly you have reasons you consider sufficient for that view. I can think of several that I think should be disbanded too, and my reasons are a lot better than yours. :smug: All entirely beside the point, however, as what I objected to was quite different - the suggestion that the *players* themselves should stop playing entirely.

Wishing for a ruler and nation to disappear forever may well make perfect sense IC, but this is the OOC forum and that stuff needs to stay out of here.
[/quote]

IC I have no issue with Peggy, because I've never had any interaction with her or with alliances she's been in. OOC, if she's the sort of person would do this kind of thing, I would be just fine if she were to never play again. In fact that'd probably be preferable. If the game needs people who behave no better than garbage, and go after people's forums over in game disagreements, then the game is of no use to me.

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[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1294167627' post='2563250']
I'm afraid forums count as IC.
[/quote]
Are you serious? Do you really think that taking down an alliance's forums in response to IC politics is appropriate?

This isn't a treatyweb thing; what Salithus did to GOONS is in the same category. Do you think what he did was OK?

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[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1294181123' post='2563506']
No they don't. Offsite property is separate from this game entirely.
[/quote]
Peggy took an IC communication tool out of order due to IC reasons. I think that is as IC as it gets. However, the property right is another point to take into account. Regardless though, she was in her right. Was it a nice thing to do? No. I think nobody is arguing that.

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I still don't understand why people are bashing UPN for this. Sure, they screwed up by not moving forums fast enough, but it's not like deserved this. It's really a low move from Peggy, and, to be honest, it lowered my already low opinion of her. Being an IC !@#$%* is ok (it makes the game more entertaining ) but doing something OOC like this is just low.

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[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1294181123' post='2563506']
No they don't. Offsite property is separate from this game entirely.
[/quote]

Offsite property that she owned.

Hate on her all you want for this, it's a !@#$%* move on her part, but she owned it, she paid for it, she can do what she wants with it.

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[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1294181111' post='2563505']
According to admin the divine.
[/quote]
I'm afraid you are incorrect here, sir. According to Admin, offsite forums are entirely out of the bounds of this game so far as the rules are concerned. That includes the game's set roleplaying boundaries. If any offsite forums deem themselves in-character, then that is up to the administration of those forums. However, they have no sanctioned ties to CyberNations, its staff, or its rules, serving only as a gathering places for players outside of the CyberNations official forums.

So, no, they're not IC, as defined by Admin.

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[quote name='Lord Emares' timestamp='1294150789' post='2563069']
UPN should have had the presence of mind to move the forums within days of being told "you have a month". The majority of the fault for the forums being defaced lies with Peggy, however some lies with UPN for deciding not to find a host sooner.
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They were going to be done moving before Peggy's deadline, Peggy decided to ignore said deadline because of some alleged spying.

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1294163033' post='2563186']If she owns the domain, as unfortunate as it is for UPN, she can do whatever she wants with it. Electron Sponge once did something very similar to the .. I believe NpO forums, and it was his right to do so, as he owned them.

It sucks, but she can do whatever she wants with the domain if she's the owner.

[edit] also, as has already been said, if someone gives you an ultimatum, don't sit there with your thumbs up your ass waiting until the last minute to do something. If they gave you a month, do it right away, because really, as much as I hate peggy sue, if she really is the owner of the domain and all that as as been said throughout this thread, she didn't have to give you any warning at all. It does suck, but !@#$, consider this a lesson learned.
[/quote][quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1294182041' post='2563527']Offsite property that she owned.
[/quote]
She owned the domain yes, and bros correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure she did not own/pay for the forums themselves. Changing the domain to point elsewhere was within her rights, if classless, but deleting the forums and bros' backup account and then holding them for ransom...that has very little justification.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1294167627' post='2563250']
I'm afraid forums count as IC.
[/quote]
As a venue for discussion, yes, but actions like this aren't and can't be enforced by the mods, so they fall as OOC. They can be mentioned and linked to as valid IC venues, but their running is an OOC matter.

Edited by Locke
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[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1294182003' post='2563525']
I still don't understand why people are bashing UPN for this. Sure, they screwed up by not moving forums fast enough, but it's not like deserved this. It's really a low move from Peggy, and, to be honest, it lowered my already low opinion of her. Being an IC !@#$%* is ok (it makes the game more entertaining ) but doing something OOC like this is just low.
[/quote]

It's low, especially without any form of warning, but it's legal. But just because you are allowed to do something, you don't necessarily need to do it.

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Devils Advocate...

Peggy and her bunch are fighting a war. Is it ok for her to disrupt alliance communications so she and her bunch could coordinate their attacks while their opponents scramble? Not to get this off topic, but I'm assuming it would definitely not be ok for her if it wasn't "her property" to actually hack the forum and have done what she done...something like that could be criminal?

Good luck to UPN getting everything back. My suggestion would be to use free forums so that when a founder or alliance leader leaves or steps down or is not re-elected they turn over all Admin powers to the incoming government and nothing is lost. Be sure to check all Admin accounts so that no extra users are masked that could be old govs accounts.

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[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1294183706' post='2563562']
She owned the domain yes, and bros correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure she did not own/pay for the forums themselves. Changing the domain to point elsewhere was within her rights, if classless, but deleting the forums and bros' backup account and then holding them for ransom...that has very little justification.
[/quote]

Peggy paid for the hosting.

She did not touch any of the files

Just deleted my backup account.

Then decided to toss insane accusations at me.

Peggy redirected the domain and nothing else. Because she wanted to use the files and database as a bargaining chip.

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[quote name='bros2' timestamp='1294188991' post='2563665']
Peggy paid for the hosting.

She did not touch any of the files

Just deleted my backup account.

Then decided to toss insane accusations at me.

Peggy redirected the domain and nothing else. Because she wanted to use the files and database as a bargaining chip.
[/quote]

I read this like a Haiku and it was epic.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1294167214' post='2563242']
It really shows a lot about people's inability to set down IC grudges (and a fairly tenuously justified one at that, in most cases) that they're blaming UPN for this. Yes, they could have done more to prevent it, as any victim of a crime in RL or a forum attack online could have done. But they're still the victim and the blame is entirely on Peggy, who has done something very childish and has taken an IC dispute OOC.

There's really no excuse to abuse accesses that you have had and no longer need.
[/quote]
It might sound crazy but, both of them were in the wrong. It's amazing, really.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1294169321' post='2563286']
Also: can we [i]pleeaasseee[/i] stop with the absolutely awful and logically unsound analogies regarding cars? You may think they apply, but they really don't. Here is the only analogy that works: the original post and the following post made by bros, likewise UPN being a little to optimistic about trusting the "kindness" of Peggy. It's a pretty lengthy and choppy analogy, but it's the only analogous situation to this... not some !@#$@#$ car.
[/quote]

You see here. This thread is kinda like driving on the highway. Once a few cars start to drive in a group, more cars start to drive in a group. :v

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