A Sad GOONS Announcement

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='MikeTheFirst' timestamp='1293106378' post='2551519']
If GOONS had signed a treaty with TOP themselves after GOD had made their reservations clear to them, I would've understood the cancellation. But dropping friends because another ally of them signs with TOP, is a bit disturbing to me.

[s]It's clear from Xiphosis' post that GOD wants to get into bed with NpO and that there's some frustration PB isn't willing to do the same[/s]. Oh well, I guess if anything, this makes CN more exciting.
[/quote]

Ill agree with the top part and I xed out the one im not sure about. Thing is, and I dont get this, you know what your getting when you sign a treaty with GOD. Xiph isnt necessarily the most diplomatic person but he is consistent. I have for a long time considered him a friend with the understanding that he plays this game to win. When you sign with GOD you get an ally that will fight with you generally no matter what but Xiph will let his opinion be heard. I have not seen the interactions between GOD and GOONS so i have no idea what he said but im sure it was blunt and possibly offensive. It is what it is, if nothing else Xiphosis is consistent in his desires and behavoir. If he felt this was a breaking point I applaud him in staying true to what he believes the best course for his AA is and if more of us were this way the treaty web wouldnt be so cluster $%&@ed atm. I have to believe though there is more to it than just MK signing with TOP and this is an attempt to discredit GOD and possibly SF. RnR is tied to Iron and anyone who thinks GOD will dismantle a bloc they have worked hard to keep together is nuts. God was allied to Kronos who tied them to the other side so to speak yet it was never dropped. (though it was threatened more than once) All i can say about this is good luck to both parties in this and I can applaud both for doing what they feel is right. But this public display leads me to believe there is more going on than just this. But hey im just in that forgotten irelavant AA these days and i must say my popcorn bill has increased immensely as has my waste size .

[Monster]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1293113082' post='2551591']
I'm still fond of Xiph.
[/quote]

Same here.

[Schattenmann]

Whew, sorry if I was a little crazy last night.

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1293102290' post='2551477']
By the way, I look forward (and hope) to see you with Polar. A. I'm tired of the perception that SF is still all powerful when most of your signatories are average at best in overall efficiency and capability (and is not made up for by GOD and Rok), and B. I feel it would much more interesting politically, and in war, to have SF oppose us (MK,PB, CnG, TOP, etc).
[/quote]
Pretty easy to say, but also pretty silly considering that war is on right now and you all sat it out.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293106336' post='2551518']
And so what if TOP-MK is just a strategic treaty meant to take down the Polars? I mean, it's not like the Polars have never done anything bad to either TOP or MK that might justify them being angry or anything is it?
[/quote]
I really don't get the TOP fetish with Polaris. Polaris was beginning and doing their best to get things straight during my stint in TOP, but for all TOP's gnashing of teeth for a year, they just turned their noses up. They didn't want to fix things. Couple months later despite Polaris' pretty radical moves including kicking Sponge to the curb--and I mean tossing him on his ass, no Emeritus mask or dick--TOP attacked them for attacking them's sake. You would think that smacking NpO all over the place would get it out of TOP's system. The evidence suggests that TOP got played in biPolar, but NpO lost big, too. So, here we are over 3 years since Emperor Sponge first called Crymson a "snake in the grass" and TOP is still obsessing over the Polar "threat."

Beyond the Polaris obsession, I simply don't see what the draw was for TOP. They're a top flight alliance and they should be running their own show. Instead, we've got one more hired goons treaty. I don't understand alliances that don't create their own power spheres when they could.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1293107917' post='2551539']
Don't personally care about the cancellations and what not, when you lay down an ultimatum, it's normal to go through with it.

I'll just point out, Xiph, that it's highly ironic that you attack TOP on its "unstable government" when you've pretty much consistently hated them because... their leadership was always in the hands of Saber and Crymson in one way or another. Actually, Crymson had been, at some point, in power for more than twelve months out of eighteen. Isn't that the very definition of a stable power?

For a democracy, I'd say TOP is pretty much as consistent/reliable as it comes.

More recently, you've said that you could totally trust Polaris because they've had a reliable leadership (three emperors) for the last twelve months (since BiPolar, that's ten months but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt).

TOP has been led mostly by a united group since the middle of the BiPolar war, which is roughly the same timeframe. Sky, Berith, Feanor and now Jenko as Grandmasters, all folks who work together and share very similar opinions. The same goes for the rest of their government.

Just figured I'd point it out.

Democracy =/ instability, much like dictatorships =/ stability.
[/quote]
This ony has the appearance of truth. While TOP may have had a single guy in the Grandmaster position for a long time, they are a highly politicized alliance internally. There are different groups with pretty widely varying ideals, and come election time it's as close to parties and campaigning as you'll find anywhere. At any given election in TOP, things could change wildly. The TOP head of state has much less power than a Polar Emperor as well, so it doesn't much matter if one guy is the Grandmaster for a year if he can't just do whatever he wants to do. On the other hand: While Polaris may have had more rotation lately, Polar Emperors are all pretty like-minded and they all come from the same tradition. Same stuff different Emperor. A person can also take what the Emperor says to the bank, he does what he wants and while there may be ruling cadre drama, there's not going to be any popular upset every two months or something.
Dealing with autocracies is simply a safer bet. In an autocratic system the councils and beaurocrats are hired by the leader to implement his agenda (like Tyga's sinister agenda); in democracies the members are calling the shots and the various beaurocracies, departments, etc will have people in direct conflict with each other. Autocracies are inherently more stable.

Xiph may have to wonder whether or not he's getting a straight deal from a Polar Emperor, but he doesn't have to worry about whether or not it's going to be the same government next week.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Schattenmann

[The MVP]

[quote]MK and PB on the whole was informed that signing TOP into the side was unacceptable to me, they were informed why as well. It is my opinion, based on what I witnessed during and after Karma and the months afterwards, that TOP has no loyalty to anyone or anything. Their friends have, routinely, been abused and used in the past.[/quote]

And what did Polaris pull last war? Maybe GOD-Polaris relations are high but it's no longer a secret Polaris is trying to cuddle up to as many alliances as possible flooding their embassies to try and bring alliances to their side. Have you ever wondered what type of loyalty Polaris had to say NSO last war? They're only using you, Xiph. You have forgotten that Polaris is not to be trusted, they're using you. TOP is out to get revenge, Polaris is out to get meatshields.

I mean I knew about this all, and I'm inactive!

[SirWilliam]

Well said, Sardonic. It's unfortunate, not to mention rather ridiculous, that one man desired control and hated an alliance more than he appreciated an ally. The silver lining here is that there is no doubt in GOONS' minds who are true allies and friends - at the moment, Xiph and GOD can be neither.

[neneko]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293100670' post='2551464']
words.
[/quote]
Quit crying.
Christ you're such a woman sometimes.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='TrotskysRevenge' timestamp='1293089243' post='2551360']


Xiphosis being unreasonable and handing down an ultimatum? How surprising!

GOONS did what they needed to do.

Pretty much all posting on the OWF is for some PR purpose so to say that GOONS (or anyone, for that matter) is only furthering their agenda as if it were a bad thing is to miss the point of 95% of all posts.
[/quote]
It is an udder delight to see you post, my friend.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293100670' post='2551464']
Where to start, where to start. First of all, Doomhouse connects MK to the power structure. PB is the current power structure. This is a responsibility that you folks adopted when you formed the bloc and that's fine, but you need to understand what that entails. You have not only the obligation, but the expectation of all involved to lead - that includes deciding who does, and does not, enjoy the protections this side entails. But I know you, and have known you for a long time, Sardonic. I know Roquentin as well. I knew this wasn't important to you guys, and you weren't going to legitimately do anything about it, and that's fine. But it forces me to.

MK and PB on the whole was informed that signing TOP into the side was unacceptable to me, they were informed why as well. It is my opinion, based on what I witnessed during and after Karma and the months afterwards, that TOP has no loyalty to anyone or anything. Their friends have, routinely, been abused and used in the past. They have screwed over the coalitions they participated in, and due to the democratic nature of their government saying anything long term about them is next to impossible. The last time that I was on good terms with them was Dan's term - he soon lost his job back to Crymson. I never bothered again. I value reliability and efficiency, but not if the loyalty isn't there to back it up.

More than that, I have serious issue with the motive behind this. It's an open secret several pockets of PB and MK consider NpO the threat. This is ridiculous, and I can say that much more certainly than any one of you can say TOP's turned a new leaf. It's based on 12 months of interaction. If NpO's been some big bad menace out to wrestle top spot, they've certainly hid it well. They've been staunch and reliable allies to GOD, unofficially, since the conclusion of Bipolar. Dajabo and Penguin helped get GOD-Polar relations on track since the first time since prior to the UJW, and helped settle a beef that had run for far too long. Does it irritate me they took the bait and signed with a fail alliance like Legion? You bet. Have they heard volumes to that effect? Mhm. Do I think this suddenly erases everything TOP did wrong? No. Do I think we should be hiring mercenaries to do the dirty work on Polar for us? Definitely. not. And the MK-TOP tie screams that. If you want them so bad, don't be a !@#$% - do it yourself. Don't treaty a meatshield and let them take the damage for you. It reflects poorly on your character.

I had a hard time making this call, believe it or not. GOONS-GOD has been a stable relationship, and besides Sparta has been one of my few allies that I know sizable portions of the gov and consider legitimate friends. But to let TOP into the side without anything being done just seemed ridiculous to me, and GOD agreed. Whether or not you accept that you have the responsibility for managing this side is irrelevant; at the end of the day you do. I sincerely hope you, and the rest, embrace your responsibilities and man up. Nothing good comes of naivety.

And to the rest; haters gonna hate. See you next war.
[/quote]
My problem is not the fact that you canceled, or that you said "them or us." That happens all the time. But the charge that you asked them to actively try and deter the treaty between an ally and someone else reeks of the very same Hegemony we have been accused of building up in recent history. That is the problem, not the cancellation itself.

[quote name='Petrovich4' timestamp='1293101655' post='2551473']
Whats the big problem here?

Vanguard (under Denial) did the exact same thing after MK and NPO signed a low level treaty. Vanguard informed CnG that if anyone signed MDP+ higher with NPO, Vanguard would leave the bloc. It was a diplomatic warning and a political promise. MK should be aware of this before bashing GOD.

I'm not sure about the specifics in regards to this but I do believe that GOD's main purpose is not in the wrong. [i]How[/i] they went about (as others have stated prior to this) to ensure the continuity of their foreign policy is up for question. To ensure their FA policy is sound - to them - is not up for question.


The big 'problem' is the now open split the prominent bloc and the remnants of a sizable bloc. GOONS motives behind this is obvious and transparant, no matter how eloquent the OP is (kudos to that btw).

As for Xiphosis' post in regards to TOP...he is both correct and wrong, it is mainly an interaction of personalities and history.

I look forward to the next war.
[/quote]
The difference between this and what you are referring to comes down to one major point, discussed in what I mentioned above. The ultimatum is not the problem. Asking an alliance to actively stop a treaty from happening between an ally and a friend of theirs is completely different than simply delivering an "us or them" ultimatum. The former is insane and completely immoral.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1293117023' post='2551623']
On the other hand: While Polaris may have had more rotation lately, Polar Emperors are all pretty like-minded and they all come from the same tradition. Same stuff different Emperor. A person can also take what the Emperor says to the bank, he does what he wants and while there may be ruling cadre drama, there's not going to be any popular upset every two months or something.
[/quote]

This is the best thing that you've written on these boards since TWiP, Schatt. Truly.

On the one hand we should forgive Polar because they changed leaders. On the other hand we should recognize that all Polar emperors are essentially the same.

Also, we can take an Emperor's word to the bank? Do you even remember the name of the last war?

-------

I'd also like to say that this episode causes Xiph to transcend Moldavi as CN's resident cartoonish villain. Truly, think about the Darth Vader quality of it.

"GOONS, if you allow MK to sign this treaty, it is not MK that shall be punished...[i]it will be [u]you![/u][/i]"

Here's to making things interesting!

Edited December 23, 2010 by WalkerNinja

[mattski133]

While this is a bummer, I do enjoy getting a look at what 1% of the people here deal with while the rest of us buy wonders and tech. Instead of guessing how SF and PB/C&G will start to drift apart, it's all outlined right here.

Good show Sardonic. It's one thing to have a discussion about policy, it's another to be told what to do, or else.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1293119008' post='2551642']
This is the best thing that you've written on these boards since TWiP, Schatt. Truly.[/quote]
Ah, a fan!
[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1293119008' post='2551642']
On the one hand we should forgive Polar because they changed leaders. On the other hand we should recognize that all Polar emperors are essentially the same.
Also, we can take an Emperor's word to the bank? Do you even remember the name of the last war?
[/quote]

You're a smart guy, Walker, so it's a failing of my expression or a deliberate twist. You can take an emeperor's word to the bank in terms of if he says "we are doing X" then tat is what they are doing because he said so--whether or not he's lying to you is not a matter of government style. It's not "this is what we're doing, if I can get the [whatever] to vote yes on it for me."
Forgive is your word, I didn't use it. You should definitely get over it. A wise sensei, Miyagi, once came through Schloss Eggenberg and impressed me with these words, "Never put passion before principle. Even if win, you lose."

[hawk11]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1293118972' post='2551641']
It is an udder delight to see you post, my friend.
[/quote]
No more posting, Stormsend.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='hawk_11' timestamp='1293121193' post='2551667']
No more posting, Stormsend.
[/quote]
Denied, hawk_11.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293100670' post='2551464']
Where to start, where to start. First of all, Doomhouse connects MK to the power structure. PB is the current power structure. This is a responsibility that you folks adopted when you formed the bloc and that's fine, but you need to understand what that entails. You have not only the obligation, but the expectation of all involved to lead - that includes deciding who does, and does not, enjoy the protections this side entails. But I know you, and have known you for a long time, Sardonic. I know Roquentin as well. I knew this wasn't important to you guys, and you weren't going to legitimately do anything about it, and that's fine. But it forces me to.

MK and PB on the whole was informed that signing TOP into the side was unacceptable to me, they were informed why as well. It is my opinion, based on what I witnessed during and after Karma and the months afterwards, that TOP has no loyalty to anyone or anything. Their friends have, routinely, been abused and used in the past. They have screwed over the coalitions they participated in, and due to the democratic nature of their government saying anything long term about them is next to impossible. The last time that I was on good terms with them was Dan's term - he soon lost his job back to Crymson. I never bothered again. I value reliability and efficiency, but not if the loyalty isn't there to back it up.

[/quote]

My only issue with this is that PB really can't dictate what MK does because they are not fully placed in the Bloc, they are just tied to it. By doing this, PB would be exerting power onto MK which could be labeled as 'abuse of power' or 'corruption' and etc. Now don't go and say they don't already do this to some people, but this is their own allies and they will not do such things to them. So such demands were rather unreasonable for GOONS. I hate GOONS, PB and MK just as much as anyone, but they are right here. PB 'could' express there dislike for the MK - TOP treaty, but they don't really have the power to say "This treaty is unacceptable! Do not sign this!" Plus onto of this, they probably didn't care or they approved of the treaty anyways. So by forcing your allies to do something that they really don't have any power over is quite the preposterous notion. I would understand this more if MK was an official member of PB, however, they are not. Plus, as you said, GOONS didn't care about this treaty and was probably happy that they signed it, so you are trying to force your allies to something they don't want to.

Unless all you wanted was for GOONS to tell MK, "This treaty puts us in an odd position with some of our allies" then I would be a lot more understanding with that as well. But this is not what 'interpretation' I got from reading this thread.

[Jackie Moon]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1293104941' post='2551501']
Ok big man how about you tell your friends at Poison Clan and iFOK to honor their NEW treaty and hit FARK then... you'll soon see what a suicide pact like SuperFriends can do.




You have little foresight in CN politics if you really think the RnR/IRON combo is going to hit the same headlines the MK/TOP treaty will over the next 12 months.
[/quote]

Classic Wally, firing shots off in all the wrong directions.

Easy there big guy.

[camerontech]

This trend is all too common in CN, good on GOONS to bring it out in the open, maybe others will think twice before acting in such a way

[Teddyyo]

[img]http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/143/d75f0b682.jpg[/img]


This screen sums it up pretty well.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1293123482' post='2551696']
[img]http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/143/d75f0b682.jpg[/img]


This screen sums it up pretty well.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Penkala]

[quote name='fluffyewunga' timestamp='1293101135' post='2551467']
And people wonder y i didn't want anything to do with SF's, CA or GOD.
[/quote]

Don't worry. We didn't want anything to do with you, either.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1293116470' post='2551619']
-snip-
[/quote]
I have to agree with Bud. When an alliance signs with GOD, you know that you have a staunch and loyal ally to the end. Yes, Xiphosis isn't the most diplomatic person but like Bud said, he is consistent with his views and if you do or say something stupid, he'll be up front and blunt honest with you about it.

[bakamitai]

Kudos go to GOONS, for not interfering with the sovereignty of MK and TOP in deciding how they wish to structure their relationship.

Flames go to Xiph (not the rest of GOD), for demanding that GOONS interfere with that sovereignty.

Sympathies go to the GOD membership, for you have just lost an ally for no good reason.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1293123482' post='2551696']
[img]http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/143/d75f0b682.jpg[/img]


This screen sums it up pretty well.
[/quote]

If VE fancies itself to be a Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf. B, I have some bad news...you're more like a PzKpfw IV Ausf. H. Reliable tank, not a heavy hitter.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293100670' post='2551464']
Where to start, where to start. First of all, Doomhouse connects MK to the power structure. PB is the current power structure. This is a responsibility that you folks adopted when you formed the bloc and that's fine, but you need to understand what that entails. You have not only the obligation, but the expectation of all involved to lead - that includes deciding who does, and does not, enjoy the protections this side entails. But I know you, and have known you for a long time, Sardonic. I know Roquentin as well. I knew this wasn't important to you guys, and you weren't going to legitimately do anything about it, and that's fine. But it forces me to.

MK and PB on the whole was informed that signing TOP into the side was unacceptable to me, they were informed why as well. It is my opinion, based on what I witnessed during and after Karma and the months afterwards, that TOP has no loyalty to anyone or anything. Their friends have, routinely, been abused and used in the past. They have screwed over the coalitions they participated in, and due to the democratic nature of their government saying anything long term about them is next to impossible. The last time that I was on good terms with them was Dan's term - he soon lost his job back to Crymson. I never bothered again. I value reliability and efficiency, but not if the loyalty isn't there to back it up.[/quote]
TOP now has 'a' connection to PB. You don't like it? That's what non-chaining clauses are for! It's a nature of the web that most people will have, and have to accept, indirect ties that they don't care for.

[quote]More than that, I have serious issue with the motive behind this. It's an open secret several pockets of PB and MK consider NpO the threat. This is ridiculous, and I can say that much more certainly than any one of you can say TOP's turned a new leaf. It's based on 12 months of interaction. If NpO's been some big bad menace out to wrestle top spot, they've certainly hid it well. They've been staunch and reliable allies to GOD, unofficially, since the conclusion of Bipolar. Dajabo and Penguin helped get GOD-Polar relations on track since the first time since prior to the UJW, and helped settle a beef that had run for far too long. Does it irritate me they took the bait and signed with a fail alliance like Legion? You bet. Have they heard volumes to that effect? Mhm. Do I think this suddenly erases everything TOP did wrong? No. Do I think we should be hiring mercenaries to do the dirty work on Polar for us? Definitely. not. And the MK-TOP tie screams that. If you want them so bad, don't be a !@#$% - do it yourself. Don't treaty a meatshield and let them take the damage for you. It reflects poorly on your character.

I had a hard time making this call, believe it or not. GOONS-GOD has been a stable relationship, and besides Sparta has been one of my few allies that I know sizable portions of the gov and consider legitimate friends. But to let TOP into the side without anything being done just seemed ridiculous to me, and GOD agreed. Whether or not you accept that you have the responsibility for managing this side is irrelevant; at the end of the day you do. I sincerely hope you, and the rest, embrace your responsibilities and man up. Nothing good comes of naivety.

And to the rest; haters gonna hate. See you next war.
[/quote]
So you trust Polar but hate TOP?

You don't think MK didn't take months to develop a relationship with TOP? The reason so many people "knew this was coming!" was because we've been heavily interacting with TOP for months, long Q&As, discussed TOP with our allies, etc. It's ridiculous to call TOP a "meat shield" and the equivalent of "hiring mercenaries". This is not MK's reason for signing a treaty with TOP (or any of our other treaties) at all.

Maybe you're letting your affection for Polar cloud your analysis of them, but to complain about TOP being "unreliable" while getting in with NpO, after all the things Polar pulled last war betraying one group of allies and then another, is strange and reeks of double standards.

[Smooth]

This pains me to no end to see this. However, I completely and entirely understand where GOONS is coming from. Xiph, I love you man, but I think what you did here was ridiculous, especially considering the whole Polar nonsense.

I hope this will be rectified one day and we will continue to stand by both of you.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Smooth

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1293088715' post='2551343']
GOD made the right decision for GOD
[/quote]

Hahahha, what? I guess ditching your friend for an utterly idiotic reason (a move that in this case will accomplish nothing) is a good move nowadays. GOD is still tied to PB (by an MDAP no less) and thus still tied to MK (and TOP) via Umbrella and GOONS.

So bravo on letting your childish ideals get the better of you once again!

[ROMMELHSQ]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1293125446' post='2551714']
If VE fancies itself to be a Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf. B, I have some bad news...you're more like a PzKpfw IV Ausf. H. Reliable tank, not a heavy hitter.
[/quote]
It is a King Tiger actually, FOK is the Tiger, Umb the Panther and PC the Pz IV

edit: nm, i just the tiger and thought ...

Edited December 23, 2010 by ROMMELHSQ