A Sad GOONS Announcement

[KCToker]

[quote name='TonytheTiger' timestamp='1293735153' post='2558432']
Nobody said you need to trust TOP Xiph, we don't have your alliances best interests at heart. Really though, why would TOP be expected to care for GOD's interests. GOD is such a small, insignificant alliance compared to even the rest of SF, I find it ironic you think you can dictate foreign policy to anybody. What should GOON be expected to do just to keep a treaty with you? Whatever they do I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the treaty.

You really think you can keep the Karma coalition together by keeping TOP out while at the same time bringing Polar in? Good luck.
Why would TOP care for your opinion on our foreign policy? Thanks for the advice on how we can branch out into our own side "safely and without any lingering threat", but frankly we don't trust you either. I care so little for keeping your 'side' together it's not funny. Look how unified you all are right now. The only reason Karma won is because half the Initiative switched sides, no other reason. Karma would have been crushed if not for the 6 Initiative alliances that backed it. Yet look how little respect TOP get's now for helping win the Karma war.
[/quote]
What are you smoking, and can I have some?

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1293739651' post='2558508']
Even if that were true, that in and of itself was plenty. Anywhere near the NS levels TOP fought at, nukes trump everything else. By not firing nukes you not only ensured your ostensible targets took less damage than they should have, you also allowed them to focus their limited supply of nukes entirely on the alliances that actually fought.
[/quote]

Alliances that actually fought? I'm pretty sure TOP does as much damage without nukes as most alliances do with nukes.

[quote]
Stukov, for shame, you have been around entirely too long to claim to claim you dont know what a "stagger" is.
[/quote]

Yes, and I also know we planned staggers for all our targets since I helped make the target lists... Right now as I type this I am looking at our milcom reports from the Echelon front. We had one non successful stagger on a 23k ns nation. The person who was supposed to stagger for some reason never attacked so we had someone else fill the slot. I don't know where the hell this revisionist history about TOP not staggering came from, but I have never even heard about it until the past couple months.

[TonytheTiger]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1293741789' post='2558527']
Just FYI, The initiative broke up in September, 2007. Karma was fought in April 2009
[/quote]

Q. I stand corrected. It was that long ago I don't even recall the right bloc.

Edited December 30, 2010 by TonytheTiger

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293699589' post='2558153']
I'll add something that Feanor brought up earlier in the thread, as well as something to the peace terms thing.



Entirely true, and if TOP had been more willing to work with us it probably would've went fine. I'm not sure [still] why they were ever proposed like they were on TOP's behalf as well, or why you guys were brought into that room, because that wasn't the idea nor was it intentional. I was completely fine with TOP not taking any reps in the situation [although I would've considered it a courtesy to divide you a share] but as I mentioned before, I got lectures instead of anyone actually working with me towards ending that front of the war and after a certain point I just got fed up and stopped trying with you guys.


As to something Feanor mentioned earlier about talking to me about what TOP could do and such, that's true. We did talk - I talked to a lot of TOP after BiPolar, but I think you guys misunderstood my point in those discussions. I was explaining what I felt was a realistic option for you guys to branch out into your own side, safely and without any lingering threat - I wasn't offering forgiveness or anything of that sort. The simple bottom line is after all the lies that have been told and all the undermining that was done in extremely dangerous, tenuous situations I can't trust you folks to have my back again. That's really all it is. I can get over the bitterness I feel about Karma & Bipolar, and I can get over the anger that comes from those, but trust? That died a while ago.
[/quote]
No one is saying that you personally have to trust TOP. Your lack of ability to trust them doesn't justify your extreme opposition to MK or others signing with them.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Azaghul

[ROMMELHSQ]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1293739651' post='2558508']
Snip
[/quote]
Grämlins deserved every bit of !@#$ was thrown to them for their attack on IRON and breaking the Citadel treaty.


Also, just wondering, are you still living in your fantasy world where TOP created The Citadel to spy on Elite alliances on behalf of their NPO masters and keep them in check?

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1293739651' post='2558508']
-snip-
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up Sigrun.

For the not interested in reading Sigrun's Wall-of-Text: TOP didn't threaten anyone or deal with anyone on the IRON front. TOP [i]did[/i] verbally abuse GRE extensively in private for months on end for only upholding their obligations when it was convenient for them. This hurt Sigrun's feelings, and so this justifies the bad press we get from false allegations of us influencing the IRON peace process during Karma.

Couldn't have said it better myself. O wait--

Edited December 30, 2010 by WalkerNinja

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='ROMMELHSQ' timestamp='1293744327' post='2558569']
Grämlins deserved every bit of !@#$ was thrown to them for their attack on IRON and breaking the Citadel treaty.
[/quote]

Really, if one wants others to move beyond past "mistakes", one has to, at least on the surface, adopt some modicum of humility. I personally enjoy consistancy, thats why reading Crymson's post was baffling. At least TOP survived, gramlins is a hollow shell of its former self that must be particularly gratifying eh rommel?

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1293749373' post='2558635']
Really, if one wants others to move beyond past "mistakes", one has to, at least on the surface, adopt some modicum of humility. I personally enjoy consistancy, thats why reading Crymson's post was baffling. At least TOP survived, gramlins is a hollow shell of its former self that must be particularly gratifying eh rommel?
[/quote]

I think he was saying at the time we were pissed at Gremlins and we had a reason for it. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are alliances who have a reason to be pissed at TOP for actual mistakes we've made. For example Umbrella was perfectly justified to be pissed at us for our actions this last war. The problem is when an alliance like GOD hates us for actions that we didn't even commit or that were greatly exaggerated from nearly two years ago.

[janax]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1293749373' post='2558635']
Really, if one wants others to move beyond past "mistakes", one has to, at least on the surface, adopt some modicum of humility. I personally enjoy consistancy, thats why reading Crymson's post was baffling. At least TOP survived, gramlins is a hollow shell of its former self that must be particularly gratifying eh rommel?
[/quote]

I know I never wished anything bad on the Gremlins of Bob Janova, HellAngel, LiquidMercury, Ejay and others....the Gremlins we signed up to be in Citadel with. The Ramirus version...yah, I'm petty enough to enjoy what they've become.

If that makes me a bad person, guilty as charged.

Yes, TOP has made mistakes under certain leadership. They've made the kind of mistakes that have upset friends, allies and almost everyone else. Shocking. So have about 75% of the alliances on Bob. Get over it, move beyond it, or try to punish them for it. For the love of Admin, at the very least, shut the heck up about it.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1293749373' post='2558635']
Really, if one wants others to move beyond past "mistakes", one has to, at least on the surface, adopt some modicum of humility. I personally enjoy consistancy, thats why reading Crymson's post was baffling. At least TOP survived, gramlins is a hollow shell of its former self that must be particularly gratifying eh rommel?
[/quote]

Our conduct toward the gRAMlins is not something that most of us would characterize as a mistake to be moved past. Nor is it something that we are typically held to account for abroad except by gRAMlins and former gRAMlins.

[ROMMELHSQ]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1293749373' post='2558635']
Really, if one wants others to move beyond past "mistakes", one has to, at least on the surface, adopt some modicum of humility. I personally enjoy consistancy, thats why reading Crymson's post was baffling. At least TOP survived, gramlins is a hollow shell of its former self that must be particularly gratifying eh rommel?
[/quote]
Vladimir said what I wanted to say well

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I think he was saying at the time we were pissed at Gremlins and we had a reason for it. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are alliances who have a reason to be pissed at TOP for actual mistakes we've made. For example Umbrella was perfectly justified to be pissed at us for our actions this last war. The problem is when an alliance like GOD hates us for actions that we didn't even commit or that were greatly exaggerated from nearly two years ago. [/quote]
I wouldn't disagree with that at all. TOP were pissed at us for putting them in a ridiculously difficult position (rather as NEW did with PC just recently), and that was fully justified (more so than many other occasions where one alliance gets angry at another). Then after the war, we had some good meetings, talked it over and started working together again in a constructive manner to fix Citadel. That's how it should work. (Unfortunately it failed, but that's a story for another day.)

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1293742478' post='2558536']
The IRON-deal was presented to us, after it was made, pretty much, and from our point of view, the one presented was actually quite nice, all things considered. Mind you, the whole way Karma went down was more or less one big pile of suckage, so we'd have to show unremarkable restraint not to be angry at everyone over it. Nobody in CN has showed that much restraint that I can remember, and neither did we.

To us it appeared that this deal was cleared with RoK, FARK and whoever else was involved, then we got the impression that those people went back on those words. We were rather pissed about that, which I'd consider reasonable based on what things looked like from our point of view. Obviously, that is no longer the case based on what really happened, but we did not know what really happened, and that sort of screwed things up for everyone.
[/quote]
It sounds to me like Gre was trying to be a broker between the two (TOP and everyone on IRON) and ended up misrepresenting positions of each side. I imagine TOP "threatening to enter" was speculation on the part of a Gremlin about what TOP would do taken as a fact and threat by TOP by those fighting IRON.

[shahenshah]

Interesting discussions IMO, I can barely recall here, but if I am correct...what happened was one Gre member appeared and said x, then someone else appeared, move from position x and says y. Its a v. vague memory, didn't really have direct access to stuff, so I might be wrong.

The following snippet from rep talks gives you the idea on how much of the 'deal' there was at one point.
[spoiler][02:55] <FinsterBaby[IRON]> REGARDLESS, YOUR ****ING DEMAND IS ****IGN BULL****[/spoiler]

In the end we did manage to have I would say a decent relation with Gre post war, that went down as Ram went up within Gre. Gre was in a sticky situation, they were trying to do what they could and it was simply impossible to satisfy all parties IMO.

Now, I dont know how the hell TOP managed to take the PR hit for all of this, I suspect the TOP speed response to the propaganda, which appears to be 2 years late

It seems the involved sides were unable to articulate there positions in clear manner. Solely blaming TOP for all of it is creating facts out of thin air.

Now regarding TOP threatening to join with IRON..If we look beyond the gossip..really it makes no sense at all. TOP entering with IRON would not have changed any outcome. It would only make matters worst for IRON, 1. we did get IRON-supplement from TOP post war, would not be possible if TOP itself would likely end up paying reps, in which case we'd have to assist them with the tech , 2. TOP's any political capital that could assist us, it would evaporate the moment they'd join in on our side.

Edited December 31, 2010 by shahenshah

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1293749759' post='2558641']
I think he was saying at the time we were pissed at Gremlins and we had a reason for it. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are alliances who have a reason to be pissed at TOP for actual mistakes we've made. For example Umbrella was perfectly justified to be pissed at us for our actions this last war. The problem is when an alliance like GOD hates us for actions that we didn't even commit or that were greatly exaggerated from nearly two years ago.
[/quote]

Those of us in the thread at this point are former citadel and thats not what this thread is about. That being said, what he said has a bit more cache with those of us who were observers at the time.

I never got the impression GOD hates TOP from this thread, i got the impression Xiph overreacted to an MK alliance to TOP because he dosent trust TOP. Like it or not Xiph runs the show at GOD and while its reasonable to assign his sentiment to the alliance as a whole (like people who judge TOP by Crymson) it dosent make it an accurate claim.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1293749828' post='2558643']
I know I never wished anything bad on the Gremlins of Bob Janova, HellAngel, LiquidMercury, Ejay and others....the Gremlins we signed up to be in Citadel with. The Ramirus version...yah, I'm petty enough to enjoy what they've become.

If that makes me a bad person, guilty as charged.
[/quote]

It dosent make you a bad person, because you made a notable distinction in your reply, as did Walker with his notable emphasis on 3 letters. One of my proudest moments on the planet was being as loud as I possibly could about the destructive nature of Ramirus to the Gramlins brand and image, I was right and so are you.

[quote]Yes, TOP has made mistakes under certain leadership. They've made the kind of mistakes that have upset friends, allies and almost everyone else. Shocking. So have about 75% of the alliances on Bob. Get over it, move beyond it, or try to punish them for it. For the love of Admin, at the very least, shut the heck up about it.
[/quote]

Im not going to shut up about anything Janax, you know the drill, if you dont like something you arent required to read it, or comment on it but you certainly have the right to do either. Without petty grudges, past reference and inference we dont have a whole hell of a lot by which to move forward on do we? Im sure things are wonderful in Argent, its an awesome alliance but last time I took a look around not a whole lot of new and exciting things are afoot.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1293742518' post='2558540']
This post was a bad idea.
[/quote]

Just as with any other member of TOP, Tony's words are not necessarily representative of the thoughts of the general membership. And just as we are (reasonably) told to not judge other alliances as a whole on the basis of the words of one or two members, others should view Tony's words with the same stipulation.

That said, I agree that unnecessary hostility has no place here and will accomplish nothing positive.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1293699589' post='2558153']
Entirely true, and if TOP had been more willing to work with us it probably would've went fine. I'm not sure [still] why they were ever proposed like they were on TOP's behalf as well, or why you guys were brought into that room, because that wasn't the idea nor was it intentional. I was completely fine with TOP not taking any reps in the situation [although I would've considered it a courtesy to divide you a share] but as I mentioned before, I got lectures instead of anyone actually working with me towards ending that front of the war and after a certain point I just got fed up and stopped trying with you guys.

As to something Feanor mentioned earlier about talking to me about what TOP could do and such, that's true. We did talk - I talked to a lot of TOP after BiPolar, but I think you guys misunderstood my point in those discussions. I was explaining what I felt was a realistic option for you guys to branch out into your own side, safely and without any lingering threat - I wasn't offering forgiveness or anything of that sort. The simple bottom line is after all the lies that have been told and all the undermining that was done in extremely dangerous, tenuous situations I can't trust you folks to have my back again. That's really all it is. I can get over the bitterness I feel about Karma & Bipolar, and I can get over the anger that comes from those, but trust? That died a while ago.
[/quote]

I understand the lack of trust. The whole affair was a mess, and I had a large part in that. I probably didn't allow enough space for the possibility that the whole terms thing was a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate action, and in any event I acted with silly rashness in pushing for an immediate exit to the war and then airing our grievance on the OWF. Perhaps something could have been worked out, had I not acted impulsively in anger.

That said, I'd like to add a bit of context to TOP's situation at the time, something that . As everyone knows, we spent a long while closely tied to such leading and politically-active alliances such as IRON and NPO, and to the Citadel. We had never been an alliance highly proactive in political maneuvering; we had always followed the natural flow of our treaty relationships. We had always been content to take the lead from others in foreign policy, and we were largely satisfied with the maintenance of the status quo in our foreign affairs. One minor exception to this was the WotC, in which neither the NPO nor IRON were major movers. However, literally nearly all the rest of our allies had the same beef with Polaris that we did, and so we were still moving with the group rather than acting as a leader or deciding things purely on our own priorities. Indeed, one of the reasons we ended up in such a poor FA position (with allies on both sides) when Karma broke out was that we just didn't know how to react when the Continuum began to fracture and our allies began drifting to opposite sides (though we weren't aware that they were opposite enough that they'd eventually go to war); as I've said, we've always tended towards the status quo.

When the Karma War broke out--and it bears mentioning that we had no idea it was coming--we were suddenly split between allies, and we were forced to learn quickly to make decisions without the sort of driving impetus we'd always before received from our relationships with our treaty partners. We were suddenly forced to act alone, and we (and I) were not used to it and did not bear up well under that pressure.

Perhaps this will donate some more understanding as to why our behavior during Karma was often very erratic.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Crymson

[Aurion]

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1293742478' post='2558536']
The IRON-deal was presented to us, after it was made, pretty much, and from our point of view, the one presented was actually quite nice, all things considered. Mind you, the whole way Karma went down was more or less one big pile of suckage, so we'd have to show unremarkable restraint not to be angry at everyone over it. Nobody in CN has showed that much restraint that I can remember, and neither did we.

To us it appeared that this deal was cleared with RoK, FARK and whoever else was involved, then we got the impression that those people went back on those words. We were rather pissed about that, which I'd consider reasonable based on what things looked like from our point of view. Obviously, that is no longer the case based on what really happened, but we did not know what really happened, and that sort of screwed things up for everyone.
[/quote]

Chill trying to lean on Lee to force Rok/Fark to abide by the terms of the deal did not help matters at all, heh.

Things like that can be a bit of a button for us. 'twas quite maddening.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Aurion

[Crymson]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1293763024' post='2558817']
Chill trying to lean on Lee to force Rok/Fark to abide by the terms of the deal did not help matters at all, heh.

Things like that can be a bit of a button for us. 'twas quite maddening.
[/quote]

Throughout the Karma War, Chill often threw our name around without our knowledge or consent and generally did many things "on TOP's behalf" without our knowledge or consent. I think he may have felt very guilty for the Gramlins` attack on IRON, but his actions certainly did no favors for TOP.

It's water under the bridge, though.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Crymson

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1293754525' post='2558719']
Now, I dont know how the hell TOP managed to take the PR hit for all of this,
[/quote]
Someone simply decided to throw our weight around without our consent and it pissed off quite a bit of people. The IRON issue has been brought up again and again since the Karma War ended and yet I have never seen any logs or evidence of a Paradoxian government member threatening another alliance if IRON didn't receive white peace or the peace the Gramlins initially had in mind. I have also never seen any logs or evidence of TOP conspiring with the Gramlins in order to create the initial Gramlins offer.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='ROMMELHSQ' timestamp='1293744327' post='2558569']
Grämlins deserved every bit of !@#$ was thrown to them for their attack on IRON and breaking the Citadel treaty.[/quote]

The accusation that our actions constituted a technical violation of Lux Aeterna was at best extremely dubious, as I recall several of you even acknowledged before the talking points memo was distributed and you started chanting the accusation in unison to drown out all dissent.

Lux Äterna forbid the signatories from "initiating aggression" against signatories or OTPs. The voice of the FCC can be clearly heard there, that is very specific wording. To attack someone who themselves initiated aggression against a third party is not initiatory aggression, it is retaliatory aggression. The governing article is therefore not 5.1, but 5.2 - which is to say that it fell clearly within the sovereign rights explicitly recognised and reserved to and by each signatory alliance.

Even if it had technically been a violation of the letter of the treaty that would only make it one of the best examples ever to show that under certain circumstances violating the letter of the law may be necessary to honour the spirit, since the emergency reshuffle that took us away from people we actually wanted to fight, and put us on IRON instead, was entirely for TOPs sake. All our plans, targetting lists, work was thrown out the window and restarted at the last minute, causing great disruption both to our own operations and those of other alliances at a critical and dangerous juncture, solely so we would be in a position to assist IRON off the battlefield with minimum injury, something we had absolutely no motive or reason to do outside of protecting TOPs interest.

So what you are really saying is we deserved every bit of !@#$ you threw at us, for having the sheer gall to put ourselves and our other allies in the lurch solely to protect YOUR interests. What horrible allies we were to you that day we Grämlins. The shame of it.

[quote]Also,
just wondering, are you still living in your fantasy world where TOP
created The Citadel to spy on Elite alliances on behalf of their NPO
masters and keep them in check?[/quote]

Oh I wouldnt doubt TOP might have said that to Pacifica at some point to reässure them, but I would draw the line at believing that you actually meant it rather than playing each as a hedge against the other the whole time.

[Ejayrazz]

"What gives you the right to decide the FA path of others?"


I !@#$@#$ TOLDD YOU ALL THIS WHEN THE NINJAS DECLARED ON YOU. About time you all are listening to me. Next time, don't wait x amount of months. Just listen to Ej. Seriously, the world would be so much better off. Think of the naked women, alcohol, and ... common sense.

[WalkerNinja]

Ninjas only leave the shadows to kill and say "I told you so."

[tobbogon]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1293770552' post='2558939']
Ninjas only leave the shadows to kill and say "I told you so."
[/quote]

We told you that too.

[Krack]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1293769172' post='2558910']
Someone simply decided to throw our weight around without our consent and it pissed off quite a bit of people. The IRON issue has been brought up again and again since the Karma War ended and yet [b]I have never seen any logs or evidence of a Paradoxian government member threatening another alliance[/b] if IRON didn't receive white peace or the peace the Gramlins initially had in mind. I have also never seen any logs or evidence of TOP conspiring with the Gramlins in order to create the initial Gramlins offer.
[/quote]

Have you asked the people who would have been involved at the time to see the logs of the behind the scenes TOP/Gramlins discussions? It might satisfy your concerns one way or the other. It's not like everyone involved just disappeared - more of them are in your own alliance now than were in TOP at the time this all went down. I have a hunch that even Chill could be found if you tried.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Krack