Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[TheListener]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1292093713' post='2536599']
Where do you take your info? The OP clearly states he left Stunt Blue Alliance #4: how did you get that VE got him kicked out from that?
[/quote]

Because it's a fact that VE asked for him to be expelled from TKTB, sure he wasn't kicked from the alliance, but he most certainly resigned under great pressure from VE.

[shahenshah]

Its pretty easy to track where all a certain user has been on the forums with the right tools and logs and I feel any alliance of significant size keeps these things few clicks away. After leaving, if he snooped around here and there and didn't tell VE, then there is a problem and it'll be discovered from the logs. VE can simply check if he-said-she-said stories hold any truth.

I think the situation is TKTB has not yet been fully informed/provided the evidence. So they have a valid reason to be annoyed, in there eyes, its innocent until guilty, which is an understandable stance to take.

If VE feels they do not need to provide evidence, then they can expect people to make judgement with the information they have.

If VE was jumping on things, the nation would have been at war, they're not jumping on him right now, so you guys can hold on to jumping to any conclusions yet.

Edited December 11, 2010 by shahenshah

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1292093713' post='2536599']
Where do you take your info? The OP clearly states he left Stunt Blue Alliance #4: how did you get that VE got him kicked out from that?
[/quote]

[quote name ='The OP']Because of unsubstantiated rumours of what was supposedly said on skype, Impero has demanded I be expelled from my AA so they may take military action to the extent they see fit. I have stepped down from my gov position and left the AA, come and get some if you think you are hard enough. [/quote]

He's no longer under his AA, he resigned; while nobody else told him to go, VE applied the pressure that saw him go. He got kicked from his alliance, then.

[Bob Janova]

I don't really see what making public details of an issue which is, with Was's decision, effectively closed, would do. The basic (if vague) facts of the matter are already out there and not contested by most people (VE made a masking error, Was took advantage of that to obtain opsec information and distributed it via Skype voice chat, VE was talking to TKTB about the issue and Was has pre-empted any decision by leaving and posting this thread).

Please don't tech raid him at this time.

[ditchboy00]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1292069910' post='2536284']
It was contested greatly. The difference between !@#$ alliances and good alliances is that most don't air there laundry for plebs (lowly citizens) like yourself.

And the antics comment was at TKTB under James rule.
[/quote]
i remember it. you left tsi to go rogue on him yet never did. was looking forward to that.

edit: completely different though as Ikke was being pm'd by you still as the MoW not him checking the forums to steal things. You could easily have checked his AA since he did tell he was leaving.

Edited December 11, 2010 by ditchboy00

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1292094069' post='2536605']
Please don't tech raid him at this time.
[/quote]

* GOONS puts away their guns *

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1292094069' post='2536605']
I don't really see what making public details of an issue which is, with Was's decision, effectively closed, would do. The basic (if vague) facts of the matter are already out there and not contested by most people (VE made a masking error, [b]Was took advantage of that to obtain opsec information and distributed it via Skype voice chat[/b], VE was talking to TKTB about the issue and Was has pre-empted any decision by leaving and posting this thread).

Please don't tech raid him at this time.
[/quote]
The bolded part is being contested.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1292093861' post='2536602']
Its pretty easy to track where all a certain user has been on the forums with the right tools and logs and I feel any alliance of significant size keeps these things few clicks away. After leaving, if he snooped around here and there and didn't tell VE, then there is a problem and it'll be discovered from the logs. VE can simply check if he-said-she-said stories hold any truth.

I think the situation is TKTB has not yet been fully informed/provided the evidence. So they have a valid reason to be annoyed, in there eyes, its innocent until guilty, which is an understandable stance to take.

Jumping to conclusions is premature at the moment.
[/quote]
End of the day he has resigned, and now sits on NONE, Since VE don't seem to be thinking that this was a plot by TKTB to spy on them, just the individual, then this has ceased to be TKTB's issue.
Why should VE now deal with them, providing they don't accept said member back in?

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='The Pansy' timestamp='1292094405' post='2536614']
End of the day he has resigned, and now sits on NONE, Since VE don't seem to be thinking that this was a plot by TKTB to spy on them, just the individual, then this has ceased to be TKTB's issue.
Why should VE now deal with them, providing they don't accept said member back in?
[/quote]

Well, if he didn't actually do anything, then it's pretty !@#$%* that their member resigned and that I imagine there was a bit of a panic about what to do about the situation. It's fair enough if he did something that bully tactics were used, but if he didn't, it's pretty terrible behaviour.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292093787' post='2536600']
It's a very interesting point though - the fact that they've had him kicked and not rolled him yet raises further problems, which are undoubtedly very interesting to everybody else playing the game. Did VE assume that they'd find proof, have him kicked, and now face an embarassing wait while they find said proof? I'd hope that's not the case, as that's surely the kind of behaviour a bully might use, a characteristic VE has never shown before.
[/quote]
Amazing. You've set up false premises and drawn conclusions from them as though they were gospel truth - yet you've somehow managed to draw conclusions that would still be wrong even if your premises [i]were[/i] true. Toss in a few lashings of proto-Alterego rhetoric and you have yourself one shoddy post indeed.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='The Pansy' timestamp='1292094405' post='2536614']
End of the day he has resigned, and now sits on NONE, Since VE don't seem to be thinking that this was a plot by TKTB to spy on them, just the individual, then this has ceased to be TKTB's issue.
Why should VE now deal with them, providing they don't accept said member back in?
[/quote]

TKTB is here and insisting on the evidence be provided, over which TKTB was being pressured and over which a govt member resigned..if they didnt care, they wouldnt be here.

Anyway, I see your point.

Edited December 11, 2010 by shahenshah

[Kevin McDonald]

This thread needs a Stumpy recap.

Sounds to me like Was should have known better. Masking mistaked get made, yes, and the precident has long been established that if you have access to info you should not have, the onus is on you to make sure you either lose that access, or at the very least don't share it with anyone. It's just common sense, really.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292094630' post='2536618']
Well, if he didn't actually do anything, then it's pretty !@#$%* that their member resigned and that I imagine there was a bit of a panic about what to do about the situation. It's fair enough if he did something that bully tactics were used, but if he didn't, it's pretty terrible behaviour.
[/quote]
Point being he chose to resign now, rather than go though the diplomatic process, from a very neutral view, I can see errors on both sides from the information provided, but I personally feel, he knew he had that mask, and he didn't mention it, because he was wondering what things he could see.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1292094861' post='2536621']
Amazing. You've set up false premises and drawn conclusions from them as though they were gospel truth - yet you've somehow managed to draw conclusions that would still be wrong even if your premises [i]were[/i] true. Toss in a few lashings of proto-Alterego rhetoric and you have yourself one shoddy post indeed.
[/quote]

To be fair I think the conclusion is pretty solid if that is true: demanding somebody be kicked before you've got the proof is bullying. My premises are undoubtedly going to be proven wrong, but the point was that since VE have done little or nothing to actually explain themselves despite some pretty strong actions on their behalf, there are a number of assumptions than can be made. If VE were to prove something to anybody, be it everyone or just TKTB, we're a hell of a way further to figuring out whether they're acting decently or not.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1292094987' post='2536623']
TKTB is here and insisting on the evidence be provided, over which TKTB was being pressured and over which a govt member resigned..if they didnt care, they wouldnt be here.

As I mentioned earlier, should'nt be hard to pinpoint what all was compromised.
[/quote]
This thread is the Party this involves, who is "NONE" telling VE come and get some, again, NONE.
Would you expect VE to provide you information of his spying, if he was applying to IRON, knowing this thread was here?
Posted before your edit Sha, disregard

Edited December 11, 2010 by The Pansy

[TheyCallMeJeezy]

This reminds me...I need to log into VE forums to see if I'm still masked in some way or another. I'll post what I find here.

[jer]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292094630' post='2536618']
Well, if he didn't actually do anything, then it's pretty !@#$%* that their member resigned and that I imagine there was a bit of a panic about what to do about the situation. It's fair enough if he did something that bully tactics were used, but if he didn't, it's pretty terrible behaviour.
[/quote]
You don't think that VE hoped to set up a one-sided war over this? It seems rather obvious that they hoped to pressure TKTB into committing to defend their member, without providing the evidence (that we still haven't seen?) that could possibly make TKTB think twice about keeping WasDragon around, at least not until it would be too late for them to do anything about it.

I don't blame VE for warmongering here, but I wish they'd just be honest about it instead of being crippled by the fear of the spectre of Karma paying them a visit at some point down the road. If they wanted to attack TKTB and their allies and thought that they had enough power to make it work, they should've gone with the courage of their convictions, PR be-damned.

However, if they wanted to attack TKTB and their allies but were terrified of a public backlash or were afraid of losing the support of previously neutral alliances (as appears to be the case: looks like VE aren't interested in causing too much of a fuss now that the "but you are harbouring spies!" PR insta-win is off the table) then they should simply accept that they are too weak and pathetic to declare wars on their own, and should scuttle back to their corner until someone with bigger stones comes to the fore and kicks something off that they can bandwagon onto.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292079087' post='2536372']
6 months is a long time to leave someone masked. i have never known any alliance that incompetent.
[/quote]
Doch, I'm sure you've met VE before

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292086094' post='2536442']
Not that I blame you of course, nobody would want to be in front of Pandora's guns.
[/quote]
Be truthful here. It wouldn't just be Pandora alone. It's the other guns you all would bring along. Your bloc alone scares no one, the treaties connecting outside the bloc are the guns that could overwhelm foes. Pandora alone could not.

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1292086591' post='2536452']
So what have we accomplished - the people that don't like us **still don't like us** and the people who have good information seem to be chuckling... yeah, seems like about the average day here on planet bob.

>>> I have no idea what this is about, but from some of the posts I gather we (VE) didn't unmask someone correctly, and they spied information off our forums and passed it on to someone? Sounds like a clear cut issue to me. If I leave my keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked I might be an idiot, but stealing my car is still illegal.
[/quote]
It's commonly said by people on your side of alliances announcing without protection that they deserve the raiding they get. VE likewise deserves what they got. Which from my [s]spies[/s] [s]sources[/s] errrr people I know say the info ain't that sensitive

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292088232' post='2536479']
4) VE should provide evidence to TKTB but by no means are obligated to show any of us on the OWF crap as it really isnt relavent for us to have all the details.
[/quote]
Providing the details just cuts out more meetings on deciding if other alliances should get involved and when, it's a courtesy really

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292089627' post='2536510']
Right up to this very minute we are still waiting on proof that there was something done to have reason to give him up. With no evidence of any wrong doing by Was, and his denial of doing anything wrong, of course I would protect him.
[/quote]
There probably is no hard proof besides some guy spilling what Wasdrogan said via another medium. You're waiting for hard proof that may never be available. You should announce the protection of Wasdrogan even if he doesn't want it. He is out hanging on none and could be hit at anytime by the known vultures of Bob.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292093480' post='2536595']
edit: He didn't just log in and then out again, is the thing. He accessed intel and shared it.
[/quote]
Prove it to TKTB. Not so and so told us that Wasdrogan said this on skype. Show actual proof. You or your ally VE don't have it do you?

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292093787' post='2536600']
It's a very interesting point though - the fact that they've had him kicked and not rolled him yet raises further problems, which are undoubtedly very interesting to everybody else playing the game. Did VE assume that they'd find proof, have him kicked, and now face an embarassing wait while they find said proof? I'd hope that's not the case, as that's surely the kind of behaviour a bully might use, a characteristic VE has never shown before.
[/quote]
Agreed. Before going to TKTB about this, VE should have made sure they had hard evidence to prove what Wasdrogan "did". It does indeed seem that they are going by the "we heard Wasdrogan did this". A real credible alliance would give hard evidence.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Fernando12

[ditchboy00]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1292094069' post='2536605']
I don't really see what making public details of an issue which is, with Was's decision, effectively closed, would do. [b]The basic (if vague) facts of the matter are already out there and not contested by most people (VE made a masking error, Was took advantage of that to obtain opsec information and distributed it via Skype voice chat[/b], VE was talking to TKTB about the issue and Was has pre-empted any decision by leaving and posting this thread).

Please don't tech raid him at this time.
[/quote]
how are the facts out there if you do not even share them with the alliance you accused of spying?

[KingEd]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292091891' post='2536572']
OOC: Actually we've been stable mostly since PB was formed.

IC: Lesson learned I hope on someone's part. Exploiting someone else's security goof is libel to not only get you rolled it could get your entire alliance rolled. [b]Lack of DoW on this is actually disturbing.[/b]
[/quote]

It truly is. If the evidence does exist of this Skype conversations/logs of information changing hands from Was to TKTB Govt then TKTB is in quite a pickle because I wouldn't let that slide, and I doubt anyone else would either.


[quote name='The Pansy' timestamp='1292093033' post='2536591']
A Tech Raid target?
[/quote]

I think Bob Janova warned against this.

[Locke]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1292089423' post='2536502']
[color="#0000FF"]VE is under no obligation to provide evidence to anyone. Least of all you.[/color]
[/quote]
No, they aren't, but if they don't they shouldn't be complaining about how everyone is mis-informed and drawing the wrong conclusions; can't have it both ways, either release the evidence and have well-informed people, or refuse to and lack that.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292093480' post='2536595']
Who said logging into somewhere to find out you still have a mask and logging back out again is spying? Wasn't me (the post you quoted after all is quite clear there), and I highly doubt it was VE either.

edit: He didn't just log in and then out again, is the thing. He accessed intel and shared it.
[/quote]
Well, the point being made is that, unless someone cares to share exactly what happened, there's no proof. Again, VE doesn't [i]have[/i] to share, but until they do people will hold their own opinions on the matter. Sit and laugh at how wrong people are if you like, but it's not like you've given people much choice other than to take your word for it, which apparently they don't.

[DevastationStation]

I think the better question is this; if the evidence is so damning, how come one of the following has not happened yet?

1. TKTB getting rolled?

2. WasDrogan getting rolled?

Pretty much the entirity that is Bob wants another global conflict, and this border-lines the usual (status quo) for said big-time engagements spawn from. I'm also pretty certain that PB wants to test drive their new war machine, so what is going on here?

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe that this hard evidence that they possess, isn't that hard to begin with.

Just my two cents - from peanut gallery member 001435.

[Solaris]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292096065' post='2536640']
I think Bob Janova warned against this.
[/quote]
Indeed yes.

[Joseph Black]

Since I didn't read past the 2nd page forgive me if information has been provided.

In terms of VE, I know a few of them and they seem pretty down to earth, not saying that they couldn't be bullying, but my inclination is against this because as an alliance leader myself, if one of my member were being "bullied" and there was no hard proof, it wouldn't matter if the member left to save the alliance or not we would have their back, thats the whole purpose of being an alliance defending each other from unjustified attacks.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292096065' post='2536640']
I think Bob Janova warned against this.
[/quote]
I believe that was After my post, but this matters not, as it was said as a joke, though he under most tech raiding alliances rules, a Valid Target.
Bob has asked for people not to raid him, I can respect that, and as someone who has to authorise any aggressive attacks from my alliance, I can ensure Olympus won't be raiding him, but I fail to see how anybody who hasn't read this thread would be able to know this though.