Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292090199' post='2536527']
My roomate moves out and no longer lives at my place and forgets to give me his/her key back. 6 months later he/she comes in to my house and digs around and that is my fault. Should i have changed the lock considering there was a key out there probably but as my ex roomate was a friend should i have worried about it. Im just saying that is one of the most stupidest arguments ive seen there. Im sorry officer but the bank door was open so i just went in and helped myself. There is right and wrong and if Was crossed that line he needs to be accountable. Yes the security guy screwed the pooch here but [i][b]just because he made a mistake does not justify someone crossing the line and entering areas they shouldnt have been in.[/b][/i]

delta
[/quote]
This is a bit of utter hypocrisy we do here on planet bob.

Wasdrogan - did wrong yes. VE did wrong keeping him masked yes.

So it's Wasdrogan's fault? Or did VE's mistake make it their fault?

Let's see here. A new alliance declares it's existence without a protectorate agreement. [i][b]Just because he [they] made a mistake does not justify someone crossing the line and entering [raiding] areas they shouldnt have been in.[/b][/i]

My argument is very similar. The solution is simple. VE do your damn jobs and secure your forums.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Fernando12

[KingEd]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The last conversations we had were to try and keep things from going insane. We were trying to get specific with the 'punishment' they wanted for Was. And to be honest, PB doesn't scare me but I do have to think of all of my alliance, not just one member.[b] The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.[/b]
[/quote]

To pin the mass exodus of CN population on PB is absurd, and quite frankly you are giving then far more credit than they deserve. Not to mention - spying is spying regardless of the size of the alliance. Which leads me to my next point: had the roles been reversed you would be doing the same thing. [b]No one likes to be SPIED on.[/b]

[Monster]

Whenever I've been masked improperly I go to the alliance in question, even if I see them as hostile. I went to UPN on a similar issue.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292090885' post='2536543']
This is a bit of utter hypocrisy we do here on planet bob.

Wasdrogan - did wrong yes. VE did wrong keeping him masked yes.

So it's Wasdrogan's fault? Or did VE's mistake make it their fault?

Let's see here. A new alliance declares it's existence without a protectorate agreement. [i][b]Just because he [they] made a mistake does not justify someone crossing the line and entering [raiding] areas they shouldnt have been in.[/b][/i]

My argument is very similar. The solution is simple. VE do your damn jobs and secure your forums.
[/quote]
By all means please use this same argument elsewhere but but oficer he left it open so its his fault i stole the laptop.

This by far made me laugh the hardest yet today. He is responsible for his own actions just because the keys were left out doesnt give him the right to steal the car. Stealing is stealing for you to try and justify it is ridiculous. He should have contacted VE immediatly and not entered member only areas pretty simple. Im not a fan of VE but i dont think even Impero would stoop to this level of !@#$%baggery i may be wrong but untill i am Was deserves what hes getting.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292090913' post='2536545']
To pin the mass exodus of CN population on PB is absurd, and quite frankly you are giving then far more credit than they deserve. Not to mention - spying is spying regardless of the size of the alliance. Which leads me to my next point: had the roles been reversed you would be doing the same thing. [b]No one likes to be SPIED on.[/b]
[/quote]
She didn't blame it on PB, she meant the attitude, Ed. There's no denying that spying is spying. No one is denying that.

As for the role reversal, while Jewel abhors spying. She is reasonable and quite able to wait for a response when rumors of spying arise, unlike someone who will remain unmentioned.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292090913' post='2536545']
To pin the mass exodus of CN population on PB is absurd, and quite frankly you are giving then far more credit than they deserve. Not to mention - spying is spying regardless of the size of the alliance. Which leads me to my next point: had the roles been reversed you would be doing the same thing. [b]No one likes to be SPIED on.[/b]
[/quote]
Jewel my Angel is wrong. TKTB would not be bullied by PB. PB would have to go thru alot more than just 900K NS.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292079337' post='2536375']
Very interesting, so you apparently know every bit of knowledge that I am in possession of? Sweet, I guess kriekfreak can read minds, wait this is something he shouldn't have and could exploit.

[color="#FF0000"]*TheListener[/color] goes to rally IAA behind the idea that kriekfreak is spying on IAA.
[/quote]

I am spying on IAA. And now what? Whatcha gonna do?

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292091246' post='2536552']
By all means please use this same argument elsewhere but but oficer he left it open so its his fault i stole the laptop.

This by far made me laugh the hardest yet today. He is responsible for his own actions just because the keys were left out doesnt give him the right to steal the car. Stealing is stealing for you to try and justify it is ridiculous. He should have contacted VE immediatly and not entered member only areas pretty simple. Im not a fan of VE but i dont think even Impero would stoop to this level of !@#$%baggery i may be wrong but untill i am Was deserves what hes getting.
[/quote]
Read my post again, I did state that Wasdrogan did wrong. You're conveniently cherry picking my post.

Both Wasdrogan and VE are wrong here. Both screwed up. The information is not earth shattering. VE will be fine.

[jer]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292090885' post='2536543']
Let's see here. A new alliance declares it's existence without a protectorate agreement. [i][b]Just because he [they] made a mistake does not justify someone crossing the line and entering [raiding] areas they shouldnt have been in.[/b][/i]
[/quote]
On planet bob, mistakes are taken advantage of by stronger parties. It's a fundamental rule and you must've learned this by now. Strong parties are masters at the art of sitting back and taking advantage of the misfortune of smaller alliances, and this is clearly what is happening here.

I agree that VE made the bigger mistake, and that the bulk of the punishment should be going to whoever was in charge of their masks, but we are not living in my own or your version of perfect world. VE were always going to try and take advantage of this situation, to deflect from their own mistake, and to kick off the war that everyone wants from a position that is favourable to them. Take a look at TKTB's allies and see why I'm surprised that they haven't already declared war on the entire alliance. Maybe we'll have to wait for update, or maybe they'll back down and have to be satisfied with an individual nation's head on a platter. Guess it's wait and see time.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Xavii]

VE's actions are completely justifiable, the transgressions of WasDragon are real and was promptly bragged about. Seeing WasDragon was high gov as well, a more aggressive alliance could have justifiably rolled the entire alliance as soon as the information came to light. But VE again proves they are both gentlemen and scholars.

The release of WasDragon to VE was a "given" (TKTB's words). Strange thing to say if there is no truth in VE's claims.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292091303' post='2536555']
Jewel my Angel is wrong. TKTB would not be bullied by PB. PB would have to go thru alot more than just 900K NS.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I doubt it. Not too many alliances are interested in supporting Stunt Blue Alliance #4's spy attempts on VE. I know I'm not, and I speak for more than just myself.

But yes, VE makes a masking mistake and Stunt Blue Alliance #4 Guy takes advantage of it and collects information to distribute. Sure, VE did make a mistake, but they didn't do anything wrong. Just because you're capable of doing something doesn't mean you should.

Everyone knows by now that I hate VE, but you have to be trying pretty hard to make this work. You know, I am partly at fault for this. Yes, I know. I tried to topple the new guys, through spin. Fantastic spin. Unfortunately only idiots such as yourself, Haflinger, and Altereo rallied to my cause. And I hate you all. You will all burn soon enough.[/color]

Edited December 11, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Laslo Kenez]

Yeah to be honest now is the time that VE should probably turn up with evidence etc. I think everybody understands that the masking issue is an extraordinary act of stupidity and exploiting that is inexcusably poor behaviour but no actual proof of said exploit has been provided yet. I suspect once it has been proven there will be almost nothing of worth to talk about.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292090913' post='2536545']
To pin the mass exodus of CN population on PB is absurd, and quite frankly you are giving then far more credit than they deserve. Not to mention - spying is spying regardless of the size of the alliance. Which leads me to my next point: had the roles been reversed you would be doing the same thing. [b]No one likes to be SPIED on.[/b]
[/quote]

OOC: Actually we've been stable mostly since PB was formed.

IC: Lesson learned I hope on someone's part. Exploiting someone else's security goof is libel to not only get you rolled it could get your entire alliance rolled. Lack of DoW on this is actually disturbing.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292091843' post='2536569']
Yeah to be honest now is the time that VE should probably turn up with evidence etc. I think everybody understands that the masking issue is an extraordinary act of stupidity and exploiting that is inexcusably poor behaviour but no actual proof of said exploit has been provided yet. I suspect once it has been proven there will be almost nothing of worth to talk about.
[/quote]

Just to satisfy the peanut gallery? I wouldn't.

[TheListener]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1292092182' post='2536577']
Just to satisfy the peanut gallery? I wouldn't.
[/quote]

I wouldn't provide the evidence for the peanut gallery either, but I would most certainly provide the evidence for the alliance affected, which once again has yet to be done. Unless the evidence provided is simply what has already been stated in this discussion, the word of penkala.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292069102' post='2536273']
We here at the The Killer Turtle Brigade are saddened to see such a great member stripped away from us by those who would bully their way around diplomacy. We're glad war was averted due to Wasdrogans selflessness, and politely wish those trying to cause a war would burn in hell?
[/quote]

While I can understand your displeasure - even if your comments and tone are as unbecoming of diplomacy as what you allege of VE - I'm sure you can understand the [i]other viewpoint[/i] here. That knowingly accessing private alliance intel AND knowingly sharing said intel with third parties constitutes espionage, an action that, as precedence and good sense dictate, is clearly condemnable.

Those who find Wasdrogans's actions (remember, actions that constitute espionage) justifiable because of VE's masking error (who coincidentally are, for the most part, allies of TKTB and/or on the other side of the web [so those with bias and/or with ulterior motives]) are ridiculous, simple as that. "It's ok that he accessed and shared info privy only to VE because VE mistakenly didn't restrict his access!"

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1292089713' post='2536516']
I'm actually confused as to why VE isn't releasing more information, because most of the assumptions people are making about what happened are reasonable based on available information but are almost all pretty far off the mark with regard to what this is about.
[/quote]

I think you'll find that VE hasn't released more information for the same reason that WasDrogan is not yet at war (and for the reason that's been mentioned) - it's early on here with regards to the unfolding of this situation (remember, WasDrogan started this thread, it wasn't VE who then proceeded to be tight-lipped). Seems more to be the case not that they're not releasing more information, but that they haven't yet had the opportunity to deal with this situation in its entirety.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1292092182' post='2536577']
Just to satisfy the peanut gallery? I wouldn't.
[/quote]

Well, I'd say if they're rolling this guy based on zero hard evidence and a lot of pre-determined guilt then I'd say that it makes VE not only an incompetent alliance but an incompetent and tantrum prone alliance, which is probably a quite interesting distinction to a lot of people out there. I personally like VE from when they used to be friends of GATO and I'm sure they can prove it, but it sure would be nice to see public confirmation of proof existing.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Laslo Kenez

[Voytek]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292092458' post='2536582']Well, I'd say if they're rolling this guy based on zero hard evidence and a lot of pre-determined guilt[/quote]
http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=369632&Extended=1

What do you see there? I'm terribly interested.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1292092608' post='2536584']
http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=369632&Extended=1

What do you see there? I'm terribly interested.
[/quote]

Surely they didn't have him kicked for funsies? Cus that's not very polite. Have they pre-empted their own discovery of proof or what?

[Voytek]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292092741' post='2536586']
Surely they didn't have him kicked for funsies? Cus that's not very polite. Have they pre-empted their own discovery of proof or what?
[/quote]
I am refuting your assertion that they are having him rolled. He is not. Yet.

ps as far as evidence goes there is absolutely no reason why they should feel under any pressure to reveal it to the OWF of all places sorry

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1292092608' post='2536584']
http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=369632&Extended=1

What do you see there? I'm terribly interested.
[/quote]
A Tech Raid target?

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292092414' post='2536580']
While I can understand your displeasure - even if your comments and tone are as unbecoming of diplomacy as what you allege of VE - I'm sure you can understand the [i]other viewpoint[/i] here. That knowingly accessing private alliance intel AND knowingly sharing said intel with third parties constitutes espionage, an action that, as precedence and good sense dictate, is clearly condemnable.

Those who find Wasdrogans's actions (remember, actions that constitute espionage) justifiable because of VE's masking error (who coincidentally are, for the most part, allies of TKTB and/or on the other side of the web [so those with bias and/or with ulterior motives]) are ridiculous, simple as that. "It's ok that he accessed and shared info privy only to VE because VE mistakenly didn't restrict his access!"



I think you'll find that VE hasn't released more information for the same reason that WasDrogan is not yet at war (and for the reason that's been mentioned) - it's early on here with regards to the unfolding of this situation (remember, WasDrogan started this thread, it wasn't VE who then proceeded to be tight-lipped). Seems more to be the case not that they're not releasing more information, but that they haven't yet had the opportunity to deal with this situation in its entirety.
[/quote]
Information should have been shared with me before this thread was created while they were trying to make me kick him out of the alliance. I am defending him based on what I have been told which I believe is the truth from WasDrogan. If there is evidence out there that shows he has been lying to me, I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

Yet again I will say, what my allies and I have repeatedly said. We do not condone spying. Logging into somewhere to find out you still have a mask and logging back out again is not spying.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292093137' post='2536594']
Yet again I will say, what my allies and I have repeatedly said. We do not condone spying. Logging into somewhere to find out you still have a mask and logging back out again is not spying.
[/quote]

Who said logging into somewhere to find out you still have a mask and logging back out again is spying? Wasn't me (the post you quoted after all is quite clear there), and I highly doubt it was VE either.

edit: He didn't just log in and then out again, is the thing. He accessed intel and shared it.

Edited December 11, 2010 by SirWilliam

[potato]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292092741' post='2536586']
Surely they didn't have him kicked for funsies? Cus that's not very polite. Have they pre-empted their own discovery of proof or what?
[/quote]

Where do you take your info? The OP clearly states he left Stunt Blue Alliance #4: how did you get that VE got him kicked out from that?

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1292093030' post='2536589']
I am refuting your assertion that they are having him rolled. He is not. Yet.

ps as far as evidence goes there is absolutely no reason why they should feel under any pressure to reveal it to the OWF of all places sorry
[/quote]

It's a very interesting point though - the fact that they've had him kicked and not rolled him yet raises further problems, which are undoubtedly very interesting to everybody else playing the game. Did VE assume that they'd find proof, have him kicked, and now face an embarassing wait while they find said proof? I'd hope that's not the case, as that's surely the kind of behaviour a bully might use, a characteristic VE has never shown before.