An OOC discussion about Jamahiriya

[Kevin McDonald]

Rather than be passive aggressive, or completely aggressive, and get myself into trouble as I did during the DoE of the first Jamahiriya, I wanted to see if I could create a civil level of discourse. Due to the nature of the alliance in question, as well as some of my feelings toward it, this can only go in an OOC forum, and I hope the reasons I lay out herein will justify that belief.

I ask that anyone who decides to post in here do so with a high level of conversation. Anyone who takes the opportunity to post in here just to bash Judaism, Israel, Islam, Muslims or anything related would save themselves a lot of trouble by just moving on.

My problems with the original JAMA came from its usage of OOC rhetoric and imagery in its initial DoE. Because these were used in an IC forum, it insulated itself from any OOC arguments, which I believe is what caused most of the anger against it, not to mention the pent up rage. The insistence of using OOC images on an IC forum led to many of the problems myself and others had with the original JAMA.

The usage of imagery that glorified those considered by many, many people and countries, to be terrorists was absolutely infuriating. Those of us who argued that that kind of imagery has no place in a game such as this quickly found that it was impossible to make that argument. However, I still believe that that kind of imagery should not be allowed in this place, just as images of other people and groups have been ruled illegal under the confines of this game.

Let's turn this around for a moment. If I was to create an alliance called "The West Bank Settlers Society" and throw up images of extremist Jewish leaders, the leadership of West Bank settlers groups, or pictures of bulldozed homes and firebombed mosques, would this be stood for? I do not think so, and I believe that any punishment given to me at that time would be just. I consider this on par with the imagery depicted in the original JAMA's DoE.

Now, I realize that the current incarnation of JAMA has refrained from using such imagery, and I applaud them for that. That said, my own personal reason for being suspicious or even disliking this incarnation is due to the rhetoric that the leadership of this alliance uses in its signature. "The existence of Israel is illegal" is a highly inflammatory comment, and while MvP has every right to link to it in his signature, the question is should he?

Again, let's pretend I am the leader of the previously mentioned Jewish alliance. Would I be allowed to link to various writings of extremist Israelis calling for the bombardment of Gaza, the imprisonment of Muslims and various other extreme views some Jews hold? Probably. Would it be a good idea, especially in my position as the leader of a controversial alliance? Probably not. Especially if I was trying to prove that I was different from the first version of my alliance.

At some point it is an argument of free speech, however free speech only exists up until a certain point in Cyber Nations. We are then reminded that this is a game and the free speech has to be curbed at some point in order to keep the game fun and friendly for all of us.

So, my question to all is not "should JAMA be allowed to exist", and that is not the point of this thread either. My question to all is to ask your thoughts on the ideas I have mentioned in this thread.

Am I too sensitive? Am I off base? I am not letting bygones be bygones? Or does this alliance (or my fictitious Jewish alliance) push the boundaries of this game too far? Or something in between?

Again, I would remind people to remain civil. Bashing of any individual, religion, or idea in this thread will simply prove what an attention seeker the person posting that comment is, and I would hope that no one give them the attention they crave. Remember, 'tis better to be though of as ignorant than you open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Lastly, a note to mods. I debated whether or not this thread should be created in the moderation subforum. However, I believe what I am discussing to be larger than the scope of that forum, and on a personal note wanted it to get larger exposure than that forum would give it. I hope you agree.

Thank you.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1291702518' post='2532683']
Let's turn this around for a moment. If I was to create an alliance called "The West Bank Settlers Society"
Thank you.
[/quote]

I'm sooo in.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1291702518' post='2532683']
Let's turn this around for a moment. If I was to create an alliance called "The West Bank Settlers Society" and throw up images of extremist Jewish leaders, the leadership of West Bank settlers groups, or pictures of bulldozed homes and firebombed mosques, would this be stood for? I do not think so, and I believe that any punishment given to me at that time would be just. I consider this on par with the imagery depicted in the original JAMA's DoE.
[/quote]
This is utterly disgusting and is much worse than any imagery used by Jama. I implore you to remove this.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1291703197' post='2532695']
This is utterly disgusting and is much worse than any imagery used by Jama. I implore you to remove this.
[/quote]

How is imagery of Jewish extremists worse than imagery of Muslim extremists?

[Sephiroth]

Many alliance that been forced to disband have come back after getting a better idea of what the general CN population finds acceptable and try avoiding the same mistakes. /b/, NoR, VE, GOONS and \m/ are all alliances that come to mind which were destroyed for a reason, but have reformed in a way that has allowed them not to get wiped out right away. If this alliance does something worthy of destroying it, then it can be destroyed but I don't think opinions should be based purely on what they used to be unless its the same people running it. I've seen strictly jewish alliances formed based on that, so I don't see anything wrong with interesting roleplay coming out of having jewish and muslim alliances. If they start trying to recruit people into OOC extremist organization then thats a different issue entirely, but I think your being overly sensitive about the whole thing. Conflict drives the game forward in interesting ways, if you kill them off before anything interesting can come of it everyone just gets to see another pointless curb stomp driving those away who might of had the ambition to start a great war later on.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1291703270' post='2532699']
How is imagery of Jewish extremists worse than imagery of Muslim extremists?
[/quote]
The Jewish extremists happen to have the backing of a powerful nation, itself receiving billions upon billions each year to carry out its acts from the most powerful country in the world. They have no reason for what they do other than imperialism and racism. While their Muslim counterparts do have their own deplorable methods to achieving their goals, ultimately they're fighting for freedom and independence against an aggressor.

Basically, it's a battle of rocks and firecrackers against F-15s and atomic weapons.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Sandwich Controversy

[AirMe]

I understand where Kev is coming from on this one.

[King Wally]

Hey Kev I actually understand why you are upset about this, however I also beleive you are maybe not seeing the situation from a neutral balanced perspective either.

The difference between islamist freedom fighters and terrorists is often a matter of perspective, a good example is looking at the changing american perception of Afghanistan between the 1980's to Present.

You have in the 80's a glorified freedom fighter repelling Russian occupiers, getting moral and material assistance from people such as the CIA, americal cinema (movies like rambo 3(i think it was 3?) or "the beast" are so uncomfortable to watch now its not funny) and more.

These same individuals and I emphasise individuals as many really are the same people in question are now often highlighted in a very different light as America & her allies currently occupy Afghanistan. American (& allied) lives are being lost every day fighting these same people and its understandable why it is upsetting to see anyone glorify the actions of this group even if it is only broadly touched on in a fictional CN alliance here.

What you need to maybe realise though is that perception play's a big part here... were the russians really so evil in the 80's? were the afghan "freedom fighters" in the 80's really that amazing and heroic? Reality is no...

What is the answer, some understanding and restraint from people of all perspectives on all issues to be honest... truth is you never know how things will pan out in 30 years time.

[Sargun II]

Nevermind.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Sargun

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1291703441' post='2532706']
The Jewish extremists happen to have the backing of a powerful nation, itself receiving billions upon billions each year to carry out its acts from the most powerful country in the world. They have no reason for what they do other than imperialism and racism. While their Muslim counterparts do have their own deplorable methods to achieving their goals, ultimately they're fighting for freedom and independence against an aggressor.
[/quote]
It is true the only reason Israel exists is because their western allies decided to give a huge part of Palestine to the jews so they could have their own country where they want it, this was done by force and the muslim natives have good reason to fight for their land. They resort to the methods they use because they don't have countries like the USA backing them with billions of dollars worth of equipment and training, they use whatever tactics they can.

Although now that the jews are there we can't just get rid of Israel and let the muslim have their land back since a lot of people live there and most had nothing to do with the deal that created their nation. So at this point both of them are fighting for their own freedom and independence, as many of the jews have been born there and plan to die there, so with so much time having went by not all the jews are invaders but just defending their homes. It does seem like a waste of US tax money with how much we pour into israel, we pay for them to get all sorts of stuff we don't get from the government for free here.

Overall though on the jewish and muslim extremist issue, if they are just as extreme in their lust to kill the other I consider them just as bad.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Methrage

[Caliph]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1291703441' post='2532706']
The Jewish extremists happen to have the backing of a powerful nation, itself receiving billions upon billions each year to carry out its acts from the most powerful country in the world. They have no reason for what they do other than imperialism and racism. While their Muslim counterparts do have their own deplorable methods to achieving their goals, ultimately they're fighting for freedom and independence against an aggressor.

Basically, it's a battle of rocks and firecrackers against F-15s and atomic weapons.
[/quote]
This is true, however you also are forgetting, or purposely not bringing up, who backs the "Muslim terrorists". They are backed by religious organisations taking the tithe's from faithful, good, and innocent Muslim people and funneling it into terrorist/freedom activities. You have a people who has indoctrinated their children, fed them their biased version of history, whose long term goal is to fight a war of attrition against those who they see as an occupier. You have one side targetting civilians and killings of one side, because of their race and where they live.

I do not hold Israel innocent of all wrongdoing, but your statement here is hardly the full picture, and hardly touches on the complexities of the situation. While Israel gets billions in aid to stop attacks against Israelis in Israel, the other side is fractured, each getting funds from civilians following their faith. They indoctrinate their followers with beliefs that they must remain pure in this life only to enjoy sins of the flesh in the afterlife. They are the infidels of the highest calibre, twisting the true faith to match their racism, hatred, and bigotry.

The other side is not much better, but at least they do not use religion as a weapon and abuse the teachings of the Holy Prophet.

Edit: as for the alliance in question, I have no qualms with them using such imagery, provided they, and the rest of the player community, can differentiate between in character and out of character, and not criticize people for their in game personas, or for the actions people in real life take in the name of their false beliefs.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Caliph

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1291704028' post='2532712']
It is true the only reason Israel exists is because their western allies decided to give a huge part of Palestine to the jews so they could have their own country where they want it, this was done by force and the muslim natives have good reason to fight for their land. They resort to the methods they use because they don't have countries like the USA backing them with billions of dollars worth of equipment and training, they use whatever tactics they can.
[/quote]

This is one part of Isreali history that I am no expert on What would some one say to the argument that the Palestinians only have that land from taking it as well, or that Jews lived in the territory long before Muslims (AKA biblical times)? If some one could PM me the knowledge that would be great.

[Edifice]

[QUOTE]So, my question to all is not "should JAMA be allowed to exist"[/QUOTE]

Well, I do think that is the fundamental question. Whether or not people think you are being "too sensitive" or "off base" doesn't matter. The alliance shouldn't be moderated out of existence because it's based on an OOC theme.

[QUOTE]Let's turn this around for a moment. If I was to create an alliance called "The West Bank Settlers Society" and throw up images of extremist Jewish leaders, the leadership of West Bank settlers groups, or pictures of bulldozed homes and firebombed mosques, would this be stood for? I do not think so, and I believe that any punishment given to me at that time would be just. I consider this on par with the imagery depicted in the original JAMA's DoE.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by punishment? Punishment by the community via in-game action, or OOC rule-based punishment? Real world imagery has been used countless times to facilitate RP so as far as I know this would not be against the rules. Again, I could be personally offended by either instance, I still don't think it means they're breaking any rules.

I think the best solution here would be to fight fire with fire. They are obviously blurring the line between IC/OOC. If you don't like it, RP as an anti-Muslim crusader and try to destroy them, instead of trying to get them pushed out via rules. In the end it's just a game, I wouldn't mind the controversy it generates. I don't really care what people playing this game believe in real life, but others obviously do, and I welcome more opportunities for drama.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1291702518' post='2532683']
Let's turn this around for a moment. If I was to create an alliance called "The West Bank Settlers Society" and throw up images of extremist Jewish leaders, the leadership of West Bank settlers groups, or pictures of bulldozed homes and firebombed mosques, would this be stood for?
[/quote]

I'd support this.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1291702518' post='2532683']
So, my question to all is not "should JAMA be allowed to exist", and that is not the point of this thread either. My question to all is to ask your thoughts on the ideas I have mentioned in this thread.

Am I too sensitive? Am I off base? I am not letting bygones be bygones? Or does this alliance (or my fictitious Jewish alliance) push the boundaries of this game too far? Or something in between?[/quote]
Yes, you are too sensitive as you take these things to heart but then so are many others, including those who would be opposed to what alliance you mentioned. The banning of some things is understandable to me when they're illegal in certain regions (ie. the swastika in Germany). Besides those rare cases it boils down to perspective and not everyone shares the same one on what's offensive. On a personal note I think people being offended is a [i]good[/i] thing as taste, morals or underlying philosophy does tend to get people moving at least ideologically. I'd like to see people acting on what they dislike in game more instead of being forced to come up with some trivial issues to have an argument over.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Hyperbad

[Caliph]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1291704028' post='2532712']
It is true the only reason Israel exists is because their western allies decided to give a huge part of Palestine to the jews so they could have their own country where they want it, this was done by force and the muslim natives have good reason to fight for their land. They resort to the methods they use because they don't have countries like the USA backing them with billions of dollars worth of equipment and training, they use whatever tactics they can.

Although now that the jews are there we can't just get rid of Israel and let the muslim have their land back since a lot of people live there and most had nothing to do with the deal that created their nation. So at this point both of them are fighting for their own freedom and independence, as many of the jews have been born there and plan to die there, so with so much time having went by not all the jews are invaders but just defending their homes. It does seem like a waste of US tax money with how much we pour into israel, we pay for them to get all sorts of stuff we don't get from the government for free here.

Overall though on the jewish and muslim extremist issue, if they are just as extreme in their lust to kill the other I consider them just as bad.
[/quote]
...
This is incredibly biased and devoid of the truth. The only reason Israel exists is because Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, along with the Muslims in the land, decided they did not want to live in peace with the Jewish immigrants. The original UN partition plan would have alloted the Palestineans a lot of land, much more than they have now, but instead they rejected any notion of giving the Jews any land. They were so adamant the Arab states helped the Arab/Palestinean militias to carry out attacks on Jewish civilians. the jews didn't take it for long and fought back by creating Israel and fighting back.

Blame BOTH sides if you must, but do not blame Israel for all the problems of the region, or for the conflict currently. Israel has done wrong in the past, but so have the Arabs and Palestineans, and in all honesty Israel is making a great scapegoat to blame all the wrongs in the Middle East on. If you care about the Palestineans so much, why don't you speak out against countries who have large Palestinean refugee populations, but don't give them citizenship, make it illegal for them to go to college, or to get certain jobs, and force them to live in shanty refugee camps? Yes, Arab countries force Palestineans to live in these conditions, so why the one sided hate on just Israel when there are hundreds of other atrocities going on in the region that are overlooked?

Both sides have much to answer for, however I only see one side trying to justify their hatred and racism with their religion, one side trying to indocrinate their young and teaching them to hate the Jews and to stop the jews from occupying their land. Only one side goes to such an extreme, and you support them.

The perversion of Islam must stop from these infidels of the highest calibre before progress can be made.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1291705261' post='2532727']
If you don't like it, RP as an anti-Muslim crusader and try to destroy them, instead of trying to get them pushed out via rules. In the end it's just a game, I wouldn't mind the controversy it generates. I don't really care what people playing this game believe in real life, but others obviously do, and I welcome more opportunities for drama.
[/quote]

Well, I guess that's the difficult part... where does crusading against the people depicted stop being IC and begin being OOC? That is what I struggled with originally.

I also want to stress again that I am not trying to moderate this alliance out of existence, simply asking some questions in the only forum I think they can go.

Ironically, MvP was one of the best people who ever sold me tech and I enjoyed doing business with him, and I know he brings a lot to this game for a lot of people. I have no urge to see that disappear.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291705077' post='2532725']
This is one part of Isreali history that I am no expert on What would some one say to the argument that the Palestinians only have that land from taking it as well, or that Jews lived in the territory long before Muslims (AKA biblical times)? If some one could PM me the knowledge that would be great.
[/quote]
The land was in use by muslims when it was given to the jews, as it had been their territory for a while. I think the entire jewish argument on why they were right to take it was because they had it during biblical times, but all those people were long dead with no legit claim to the land when the Allies in WW2 decided to pass the territory over to the jews and relocate/remove the muslims living there. But the biblical times argument is pretty much how the jews convinced everyone to give them Israel and why so many of them actually moved there.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Methrage

[nippy]

I'm all for infuriating imagery. This game is about opposing views, after all. The problem lies within the OOC/IC boundary itself. There are extremists out there that really do believe in the ideals of the IC characters they're portraying. The rules of this game have no doubt been set to prevent OOC aggravation of players, and with that in mind, I can see your point. The problem is, where is the line to be drawn? If we want to make this game enjoyable to everyone, there has to be some leniency on what is or isn't allowed. Obviously, Nazi symbolism has been banned outright, and for a good reason. There are finer lines, however, when it comes to other world issues...the sides are more balanced, and removing the ability of one mindset to display their points of view will only further interrupt this game's ability to maintain a player base. You might not like the symbolism, but tolerance for others' ideals is a better stance to take than intolerance in this aspect.

[Xiphosis]

If Jama has no right to be around, neither do LSF, NoR or Int. It's either or, and I choose the former. I'm a-okay with the OOC alliances rocking around. Not my preference, but it adds color.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1291705416' post='2532731']
...
This is incredibly biased and devoid of the truth. The only reason Israel exists is because Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, along with the Muslims in the land, decided they did not want to live in peace with the Jewish immigrants. The original UN partition plan would have alloted the Palestineans a lot of land, much more than they have now, but instead they rejected any notion of giving the Jews any land. They were so adamant the Arab states helped the Arab/Palestinean militias to carry out attacks on Jewish civilians. the jews didn't take it for long and fought back by creating Israel and fighting back.
[/quote]
I think Islam is a stupid faith so its interesting my post seemed so biased towards favoring muslims, as I do blame both sides and don't like either of the sides draining tax dollars from the US and other countries. I was just cutting to the facts rather than all the excuses Israel had for each move, but we're throwing a lot of money into creating an Jewish state on muslim land where they are surrounded by people that don't like them. I think if we stop aiding them and they can hold their own without it, they should exist. If they are going to always be overly reliant on foreign aid so they can hold land in hostile territory it would be better for them relocate imo.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Methrage

[Diogenes]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291705077' post='2532725']
This is one part of Isreali history that I am no expert on What would some one say to the argument that the Palestinians only have that land from taking it as well, or that Jews lived in the territory long before Muslims (AKA biblical times)? If some one could PM me the knowledge that would be great.
[/quote]

That the ancestors of Israelis once populated the land does not excuse them to bomb the families and bulldoze the homes of those that currently occupy it.

Anyhow, I personally see no reason as to why Jama should not be allowed to exist if alliances like the CCC are.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Quiziotle

[R3nowned]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291705077' post='2532725']
This is one part of Isreali history that I am no expert on What would some one say to the argument that the Palestinians only have that land from taking it as well, or that Jews lived in the territory long before Muslims (AKA biblical times)? If some one could PM me the knowledge that would be great.
[/quote]
The Jewish people were absent in that land for hundreds of years. Palestinian people I believe, weren't always Muslim. I also believe that they lived alongside Israelis all those years ago.

Why there is so much hate towards Israel though, is the way Israel handled Lebanon in the 60s. That was terrible.

@OP: You are conditioned in a land where Muslims are vilified by the media to such an extent that the average citizen feels uncomfortable just seeing one across the road. I really am not surprised you feel that way.

Edited December 7, 2010 by R3nowned

[Caliph]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291705077' post='2532725']
This is one part of Isreali history that I am no expert on What would some one say to the argument that the Palestinians only have that land from taking it as well, or that Jews lived in the territory long before Muslims (AKA biblical times)? If some one could PM me the knowledge that would be great.
[/quote]
I would have PM'ed you Supercool, but you cannot receive any new messages.

[Locke]

If you took a moment to actually get to know MvP, you'd have a better understanding of what's going on, both with JAMA and his sig. And I hate to find myself agreeing with him, but Xiph's right:
[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1291705891' post='2532738']
If Jama has no right to be around, neither do LSF, NoR or Int. It's either or, and I choose the former. I'm a-okay with the OOC alliances rocking around. Not my preference, but it adds color.
[/quote]
Oh well, it's at least more reasoned and tolerant than some words I've seen leveled against him, but really, talking to him in private is a much better way to hash out little issues like this.