What's Going on Here...

[Starfox101]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1289763006' post='2512921']
Please stop. He has enough of an ego as it is. He's not a leading reason, more like a flag. As long as a flag meets certain basic requirements, most people don't care all that much.
[/quote]
Who are you?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1289674917' post='2511960']
Those in power now lack the ability to truly strike fear into the masses, sure they are well versed in smugness and inside jokes, but really pale in comparison with villains of yesterday.
[/quote]

They hardly lack the ability. It's just that no one wants to be a complete !@#$%.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1289705702' post='2512489']
To be fair, I believe the point Starfox made in the OP is that many of you guys were never really moralists but were just looking to erode the power base through clever PR schemes.
[/quote]

I'm sure that was the case for some people, just as I'm sure some believed they were genuinely wronged.

To be fair "We're nicer than those jerks" Is a pretty easy rallying cry to gain support for, its like saying "We're against killing kittens", its an easy platform to gain converts for.
[quote]
To address the OP, I think one problem is that many on the "other side" have much less against the current ruling grouping than they do with some within that side. Sure they may not love who is in power but working with the people you'd have to work with to dislodge our relatively benign overlords is just not worth it. Additionally like Fingolfin said, we went down that road before only to be punched the face by a serious case of bi-polar disorder. [/quote]

That's sort of related to what I was getting at, lots of people complain about who's in power, but it turns out it doesn't really bug them enough to actually desire to challenge the status quo of who they like and don't. To me that says despite the volume (by volume I mean both loud and large quantities) of complaints the sky is in fact not falling.

[quote]
So in response you just kinda put your middle finger up to the world and go relax while the contrived drama happens around you.
[/quote]

Again, related to the point I was making. People are more inclined to adopt "A pox on both your houses" attitude, general apathy (and/or relatively equal dislike for both sides) prevents any serious opposition from forming. There's no motivation to be had.

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1289715662' post='2512590']
You failed to mention that it took you three years to do so. NPO just came out of reps a few months ago. If what you keep calling "our side" passes that three year time span and still hasn't thrown you out of power, then you can start complaining.
[/quote]

Time frame aside, my point was slightly different. I'm not complaining, I'm addressing those who complain that our hegemony is somehow more inherently evil and/or responsible for stagnation than the last one. Circumstances have changed before, presumably its possible to change them again given some time, effort, and competent leadership. Though I contend that right now its points 2 and 3 that are seriously holding them up. Time passing will happen all by it self, its the last two need active perusal.

But right now the biggest hurdle is none of those. Despite the public complaints the fact is.... we not hated, not on the scale that NPO/continuum generated. Sure we've got people who don't like us, but fact is most of them tend to not like somebody else more. We haven't done anything to generate that kind of unifying hate. Until our opponents find some kind of rallying cause, older and more personal grudges are going to override most attempts to target us.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289759097' post='2512871']
it should be much more crucial to develop the most active member nations to the following minimums:
2,000 Technology
8,500 Infrastructure
[/quote]



Back on topic, a very good OP and I don't think I've ever said that about a thread started by Starfox before. Since we've all made the game nicer by getting rid of the evil NPO there's nothing left to fight for - no disbandments, no viceroys, no PZI. No fear = no invention, no desperation, no motivation. Too many alliances link being comfortable to being successful or growing well as being able to make a difference, yet don't step into the public and instead drag players away from alliance politics. Alliances warn people to stay away from the OWF because of the pathetic arguments that happen and the damage that being labelled immoral or evil by the peanut gallery can do and thus too many players miss out on the bread and butter of the game - alliance politics - and drift away unfulfilled. Everything's subjected to such ludicrous levels of moral scrutiny that nobody gets involved in anything interesting and the recent introduction of the "we declared war but we aren't the aggressors as their actions lead to us declaring on them and therefore they're the aggressors" attitude has made the desperation for the moral high ground and therefore justification more important than anything. Whoever started that deserves to be punched squarely in the jaw.

[Cobalt]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' timestamp='1289755688' post='2512835']
Yeah, that's really the problem as I see it. There isn't really a cohesive force that could oppose PB right now because it would require too many alliances that hate one another working together. The WCE illustrated that quite well. I think a lot of the AA's that they were looking to gather for that coalition would have loved to take a shot at GOONS, but the problem was that a lot of them hated UPN a good deal more.
[/quote]

I find it laughable that the side that has been on the defensive side in wars for the last year+ and who pretty much just sits around NOT imposing its will are apparently the bad guys... and the side that has planned and made aggressive moves, launches smear campaigns, and sits in backrooms thinking of ways to fabricate CB's against those they don't like are the white knights of CN.

Seriously, just leave us alone and we'll leave you alone. If its drama they want, I'd recommend dropping the Harbinger of Justice act... its much easier to stir up trouble when you play the role of the bad guy in public. Love or hate the Pacificans, they were quite up front about their position of "we will do everything we have to to maintain our security" and you have to at least respect them for that. Same goes for NSO. They do things their way, and are Stubborn with a capital S - but I respect that in them. Maybe some of you "moralists" out there should take some notes, try playing the bad guy for a bit and stop waiting for lightning bolts of heavenly justice to come down and smite your enemies... its just not going to happen.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1289786196' post='2513225']
the recent introduction of the "we declared war but we aren't the aggressors as their actions lead to us declaring on them and therefore they're the aggressors" attitude has made the desperation for the moral high ground and therefore justification more important than anything. Whoever started that deserves to be punched squarely in the jaw.
[/quote]
Is it possible to punch your corner of the web squarely in the jaw. Then go do it.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1289787216' post='2513252']
I find it laughable that the side that has been on the defensive side in wars for the last year+ and who pretty much just sits around NOT imposing its will are apparently the bad guys... and the side that has planned and made aggressive moves, launches smear campaigns, and sits in backrooms thinking of ways to fabricate CB's against those they don't like are the white knights of CN.

Seriously, just leave us alone and we'll leave you alone. If its drama they want, I'd recommend dropping the Harbinger of Justice act... its much easier to stir up trouble when you play the role of the bad guy in public. Love or hate the Pacificans, they were quite up front about their position of "we will do everything we have to to maintain our security" and you have to at least respect them for that. Same goes for NSO. They do things their way, and are Stubborn with a capital S - but I respect that in them. Maybe some of you "moralists" out there should take some notes, try playing the bad guy for a bit and stop waiting for lightning bolts of heavenly justice to come down and smite your enemies... its just not going to happen.
[/quote]

TPF would beg to differ considering that RoK, GOD, GOONS, and Athens attacked them out of the blue, for a BS reason without ever once attempting diplomacy. NSO was hit over $6 million in aid which is just BS.

so, to claim that ya'lls side has conducted only defensive wars is utter bs as several alliances have conducted aggressive wars. then there is the constant smear campaign against several alliance conducted by ya'lls side as well.

not saying that some of the people opposing ya'll ain't royal $%&@-ups but there are some on your side that are just as bad.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289792890' post='2513320']
TPF would beg to differ considering that RoK, GOD, GOONS, and Athens attacked them out of the blue, for a BS reason without ever once attempting diplomacy. NSO was hit over $6 million in aid which is just BS.

so, to claim that ya'lls side has conducted only defensive wars is utter bs as several alliances have conducted aggressive wars. then there is the constant smear campaign against several alliance conducted by ya'lls side as well.
[/quote]

Right cause the first time we rehashed the CB's when the war was actually on wasn't enough, lets resurrect another 50 page topic about how people are only capable of speaking along party lines. That'll be productive!


[quote]
not saying that some of the people opposing ya'll ain't royal $%&@-ups but there are [b]some on your side that are just as bad.[/b]
[/quote]

Hehehehe.

I was wondering how long it would take for a "as bad as us" argument to come out.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289792890' post='2513320']
TPF would beg to differ considering that RoK, GOD, GOONS, and Athens attacked them out of the blue, for a BS reason without ever once attempting diplomacy. NSO was hit over $6 million in aid which is just BS.

so, to claim that ya'lls side has conducted only defensive wars is utter bs as several alliances have conducted aggressive wars. then there is the constant smear campaign against several alliance conducted by ya'lls side as well.

not saying that some of the people opposing ya'll ain't royal $%&@-ups but there are some on your side that are just as bad.
[/quote]
You really should stay out of these debates if you can't be bothered to research or even know the facts of the matters. First of all we weren't even in the TPF war. Secondly, NSO was warned well ahead of time that their actions would result in war, and they did it anyway. It is your side that are the aggressors, the provocateurs, daring us to blink. We are merely defending ourselves from your ridiculous actions which fly in the face of diplomatic norms. The lot of you are very lucky we didn't take the WCE logs as a CB.

Also we have no need to run smear campaigns on our enemies, they do a good enough job of that on their own.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Starfox101 is correct. No one here has ambition anymore.

Those in control are so because they have mired themselves in so many treaties that they can't wipe their own asses without worrying about what someone else's allies may or may not think about it.

Those that are not in control are so divided amongst themselves, worrying about petty !@#$%^&* grudges from 2-3 years ago that they will never get their act together enough to force change from below.

Lose-lose in my opinion.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289798359' post='2513381']
Starfox101 is correct. No one here has ambition anymore.

Those in control are so because they have mired themselves in so many treaties that they can't wipe their own asses without worrying about what someone else's allies may or may not think about it.

Those that are not in control are so divided amongst themselves, worrying about petty !@#$%^&* grudges from 2-3 years ago that they will never get their act together enough to force change from below.

Lose-lose in my opinion.
[/quote]

This new generation of leaders just can't seem to stir proper drama and fun.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1289799792' post='2513404']
This new generation of leaders just can't seem to stir proper drama and fun.
[/quote]
I tend to agree.

Even when I was at the top of my game I made sure to use my rhetoric and actions to goad the enemy into action periodically. Just being at the top of the hill with zero potential for opposition is incredibly boring to me. I guess that is different today. Today those at the top seem to think it is just grand to sit back, do nothing to enhance the overall quality of the discourse and collect their stats.

To each his own I guess.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1289796512' post='2513354']
Right cause the first time we rehashed the CB's when the war was actually on wasn't enough, lets resurrect another 50 page topic about how people are only capable of speaking along party lines. That'll be productive!




Hehehehe.

I was wondering how long it would take for a "as bad as us" argument to come out.
[/quote]

1) i was not attempting to rehash anything. fact is, it was an aggressive war period. no way to spin !@#$ out of that. as for party lines, i am in an alliance allied to Athens. what are my particular party lines?

as for the "as bad as them", i was commenting on the "waiting for lightning bolts to hit" comment.

@Sardonic- my bad, i could have sworn GOONS went in with RoK.

as for being warned, and? many on ya'lls side talked huge about utilizing "just" wars only. do you honestly think that $6 million is a just war? not really. and if your alliance does, then your alliance is pathetic and looking for any way to go to war but do it under some "moralist" cry. just like the BS with TPF was pure "moralist" crap.

if you have no need to do so, then why do you guys do so? and are you sure you should be talking about diplomatic norms considering the recent MK fiasco? or the TPF war? i mean, talk about flying in the face of diplomatic norms. i did not read the WCE logs because honestly, the reason for that war was !@#$%^&* (the CB those in the logs were attempting to use). and i did not want to waste my time with reading those logs as it was useless.

[Emperor Whimsical]

I think a OOC: game change would be better over a political one. Manhattan projects changed the way we fight wars forever, about as much as nukes themselves did.

[Rugby]

Personally I think arguing about what happened 2-3 years ago is a [i]great[/i] way to advance the drama of the world. We should do more of that! (This is sarcasm, btw.)

I also find it difficult to put my support, and that of my alliance, behind some of the ridiculous propositions recently. "They cancelled a trade deal!", for example. And yes before someone replies that I should step up and make my own drama, I acknowledge that. I'm just talking about what's happened recently and how it's been so beige you can't take it seriously.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289798359' post='2513381']
No one here has ambition anymore.
[/quote]
I think they do. Merely the laws set up to guide nation growth and the society we've developed around them stifles it causing everything to move at a snails pace.

[gantanX]

You politicians are thinking too much..
if someone cross your sovereignty, give them a kick in the face, don't mind about the guys behind them, the reps or your warchest, or any other nonsense..

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='gantanX' timestamp='1289806442' post='2513452']
You politicians are thinking too much..
if someone cross your sovereignty, give them a kick in the face, don't mind about the guys behind them, the reps or your warchest, or any other nonsense..
[/quote]

We did that when NSO decided it was a good idea to aid a rogue, we got slapped with a three ring whine fest that continues to this day.

Notice how were the bad guys when we do nothing, and when we do something? Great to live with double standards isn't it?

"you stagnate things too much, its your fault were bored!" "you are evil for attacking people who aid rogues"

We get to deal with weapons grade stupid either way.

Edited November 15, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Vol Navy]

It was \m/ who joined in the no diplomacy war on us back in December, not GOONS.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1289815902' post='2513481']
It was \m/ who joined in the no diplomacy war on us back in December, not GOONS.
[/quote]

ahhh the only thing different between those two alliance back then was the membership. everything else was exactly the same. now \m/ is quiet.

[Vespassianus]

[quote]Do you have any ambition left? [/quote]

Yes i do. I want to nuke the people who constantly whine and cry and make threads like this.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289827644' post='2513548']
ahhh the only thing different between those two alliance back then was the membership. everything else was exactly the same. now \m/ is quiet.
[/quote]
If you really believe that, you are more blind than I could have possibly fathomed.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Sardonic

[Branimir]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1289815687' post='2513480']
We did that when NSO decided it was a good idea to aid a rogue, we got slapped with a three ring whine fest that continues to this day.

Notice how were the bad guys when we do nothing, and when we do something? Great to live with double standards isn't it?

"you stagnate things too much, its your fault were bored!" "you are evil for attacking people who aid rogues"

We get to deal with weapons grade stupid either way.
[/quote]
Problem I have with your mentality is that you are overly anal about not suffering any critique (as obvious from your post) and being the "good guy" publicly. Always and forever.

There has to be dichotomy between those that are part of the perceived dominant power structure, and those not. If you are seen as on top, yeah, you shall always suffer verbal attacks and there shall be tensions leveled at you. If that is not the case, as if those on the bottom lack ambitions, well, as Ivan beautifully did it you initiate the dichotomy from the top position. (OOC: Why? 'Coz its a !@#$@#$ game and not facebook to make friends and animosities and driving ambitions are fun, not sitting on your ass trying to be "good guys" and playing good PR all day long,...wth).

We wear our constant critiques as a badge of honor. The new top guys squirm like little girls at the mere sight of it, or spam pages with supposedly sarcastic comments about themselves as a knee jerk reaction that shows just how anal they are if they suffer any bad PR.

As you said, you are relatively new around here. You don't know how it went down before and unfortunately you are a part of the new formed mentality that just, lacks. Community changed its all a bit too serious, and God forbid if you ever suffer any perceived "bad PR".

With that being said, what is done is done. Ambition-less, static, character-less community is what it is and isn't going to change.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Branimir

[Manis B]

MDPs = perpetual peace?

[img]http://carlosanastacio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/most-interesting-man-in-the-world.jpg[/img]

[Dementual]

I used to have ambition.