What's Going on Here...

[Nintenderek]

Ah. Starfox. Good to see you again. I was afraid you quit the game with Doitzel, Sponge and all them. I'm glad to see you have not.

Anyway, on topic, I agree with most of the stuff in the OP. There's a time for morals, and then there's a time where they aren't needed. When people are getting PZIed every day for little things, that is a time for morals. When an alliance declares war on a disbanded alliance, that is a time for morals. When a player is kicked out of their alliance for having a different opinion, that is a time for morals. When a member of an alliance is attacked by a tech raider and asks for small reps, that is not a time for morals. That is a time to either give up some reps, or if you don't think you should be giving reps, then it is the time to fight over it. Peace is nice, but war is needed to keep this game fun, and with out war, this game has not been fun. It's one of the reasons many old timers such as myself are not as active as they once were. It's because there is nothing to keep this game interesting. There's no drama, just a bunch of people spouting on about what's right and what's not.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Nintenderek

[Timeline]

Only we can change this, no one else is going to, stop alliances like GOONs raiding who ever they see fit, stop the power alliances from forcing others to do what they wish, only then will we grow in numbers. Karma was a joke, things are worst now then when NPO had power, how sad is that, thanks MK and GOONs.



OOC: Ask your friends to join, random post on websites and many other areas for public view, give the admin new ideas on how to improve game play

[lebubu]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1289666688' post='2511892']
Karma was a joke, things are worst now then when NPO had power, how sad is that, thanks MK and GOONs.
[/quote]

Oh you. I don't see even our most vocal opponents agreeing with that. But yes, unite, organize. Do whatever needs doing.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1289617377' post='2511562']
Legacy was also a merger as far as I'm aware. Thus, you did not start from scratch. Impressive growth, however.

And regardless of whether you have a desire to do something, your fear prevents you from doing anything, thus you too contribute to the stagnation. I can honestly say while I was a leader, I was always out to get someone, or beat someone. Ambition is key in everything. Sitting and waiting for others to do something is what's got us here.
[/quote]

I know it just contributes to the issue, but I'm just saying, there are people who want to do something, but as you said, the political climate stops such people from doing anything

[C Mos]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1289658944' post='2511840']
People need to learn how to play politics and stop worrying about sides. The reason NPO was great at being able to do whatever they wished was due to the fact they were a diplomatic machine capable of procuring treaties and allies with ease. Without their diplomacy skills, they most likely would not have succeeded like they did pre-Karma. If leaders can play the diplomacy/political game well, the "SF/C&G/PB side" could be non-existent.
[/quote]
I honestly wouldn't mind to learn how to play politics, if given the chance. Anything to help break this stagnation.

And I don't disagree with you one bit with your statement.

[Branimir]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289667227' post='2511898']But yes, unite, organize. Do whatever needs doing.[/quote]
I used to use that line. Also, "its not our duty to downplay our skill so to just make you more entertained by giving you a chance".

Form your own lines, mister

[Taget]

The stasis is due to a number of problems. All separate even if combined they present problems.

1) As prior mentioned the treaty web. The agressor is almost always at a disadvantage as far as how treaties are triggered. You are often at an advantage when the other side starts a war. Hence why few want to start something. And those that do search far and wide for "legal" or "moral" justification to make their "offensive" war a "defensive" war.

One way to detangle the web a bit would be if blocs didn't have their members have separate treaties outside the bloc. Let the blocs politic instead. And force alliances to pick and choose which bloc they wanted to be part of rather than be able to hedge their bets and pick a whole bunch of them. It would create some politics though would also create the risk of a large mega-bloc dominating the others or a large bloc of blocs. Of coursethis happens anyway. But at least the tentacles wouldn't extend quite as far.

Individual alliances should not have more than 5 mdp+ treaties. 3 or 4 are tough enough to balance.

2) The nature of war which from a pure statistical basis is not worth it. But also not worth it in that the consequences of losing are so great. It's pointless to get into disccussions about the NPO or whoever offered these terms or that terms. But if you want wars you have to have a basis by which both sides want it. In "another world" which I reside in you also have a system where war is even more expensive than here. What the guilds in this world do to combat this is to actually work with each other.

They contact each other to make ground rules, they decide how long it will last and they let those who are pressed too hard tap out. They'll even talk to each other about who should be on whose side and who should sit it out to make things more interesting.

Now i know the politics of this world has been built on a ground of anger and outrage. And that past tradition (I know this side or that side was worse I tell you.. worse!) is to ground the enemy to a pulp and then make them bleed more after they surrender. But if that is not working for all involved. You're going to need to adjust if you're going to have a war that both sides are going to want to fight.

3) This world is not newbie friendly. From the very start when they presented with drop down menus that tell them to join the top 20 guilds who will ghost bust them the second they leave peace mode. Until new nations are told exactly what they are supposed to do and how to become involved they are going to have problems. How to join an alliance. How the war system really works. What behavior is expected of them. You're going to continue to have people passing through occasionally and never coming back.

You also need to have some space for newbie alliances to grow and get their feet. I'm biased since I started in one of those "pointless little newb alliance." Yes it leads to the problem of "too many chiefs and not enough Indians." But it does create more folks with an incentive to bring new life into this world by bringing in those from the outside. And if they don't. They'll just wither or anonymously be in the flotsam and jetsam. And hey mergers and splitters are often the most exciting thing to happen in alliances during the intra-war periods. And can set up political intrigue and shifts.

4) The past is more of a straight jacket than anything else. Grudges of misdeeds and bitterness from three, four, five years ago do nothing. I've seen in other worlds the inability to finally get over them after they've long gone stale literally strangle the life out of them. It prevents folks from moving around, newcomers from understanding what is going on, and something new to arise instead of something that had grown tired long ago.

5) But most of all. Let's stop doing what we have been doing for the last few years and expect that we'll suddenly have different results. Going back to 2007 is not going to improve things. 2007 got you 2010.

[Kroknia]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1289666688' post='2511892']
Only we can change this, no one else is going to, stop alliances like GOONs raiding who ever they see fit, stop the power alliances from forcing others to do what they wish, only then will we grow in numbers. Karma was a joke, things are worst now then when NPO had power, how sad is that, thanks MK and GOONs.



OOC: Ask your friends to join, random post on websites and many other areas for public view, give the admin new ideas on how to improve game play
[/quote]
As far as I can remember, raiding was in its true hayday back when the world was getting its biggest growth spurts(I know I was raiding 3-5 people a week). Both the League and the Initiative had raiding aliances, not to mention a good chunk if not most of the periphery ones raided. I suggest everyone starts raiding again. Seriously though, I don't see what the correlation between raiding and the number of players in the game. It's ludicrous to even argue that.

I think you guys only hate the new powerful players of the game simply because they don't use that power half as much as the previous powerhouses did. NPO did. NpO did. FAN did. Old GOONS did. Right now, most of the powerful alliances are mildly content just sitting at the top after fighting for it sense the dawn of CN. The world stagnates when you have people that are content at the top and the top is the majority of people.

As for the "elite" alliance discussions that happened earlier with SCY... I don't think MK or Umbrella think they're elite because they have high stats, but have good stats because they are elite. Any alliance has the ability to do this, you just have to ensure an active membership and aggressive and intelligent nation building system for the entire alliance. To argue that average alliances somehow can't means there just isn't the internal will for it to happen, not that they couldn't if they had the will. GOONS, I would argue, is more elite than many alliances with much higher ANS because they are good at maintaining activity and watching their nations. I know TOP wasn't always a big deal stats wise, but they had activity and a will unmatched.

Also, I mostly agree with Starfox. I don't think that has happened sense the GW3 era. Kudos.

[C Mos]

[quote name='Kroknia' timestamp='1289668996' post='2511915']
As far as I can remember, raiding was in its true hayday back when the world was getting its biggest growth spurts(I know I was raiding 3-5 people a week). Both the League and the Initiative had raiding aliances, not to mention a good chunk if not most of the periphery ones raided. I suggest everyone starts raiding again. Seriously though, I don't see what the correlation between raiding and the number of players in the game. It's ludicrous to even argue that.



[/quote]
I can see why people would say raiding causes players to leave, especially since we only have about 20K people left... My guess is that they're afraid that the people getting raided will leave and there's a good chance that some will..

Don't get me wrong, I use to love raiding but that was back when I was actually able to find a target.

Edited November 13, 2010 by C Mos

[Lezrahi]

[i]Lezrahi smiled.[/i]

It is likely because most of the passionate, and, if you'll excuse the terminology, most conniving, voices and personalities have departed, or have either relegated themselves, or been relegated, to quieter places. You, yourself, have been gone for quite a while, Starfox, and it is a pity. Where are the likes of Doitzel and Electron Sponge? Where are the dangerous and ballsy individualists, such as fransjosef and Monkey Theory? Where is the Federation of Armed Nations that once had that hard, unrelenting, and somewhat bloodthirsty voice? In fact, where is FAN at all these days? Where are the \m/en of old? The Neutral Shoving Goons? Those collectives of pure controversy and hate that would attempt to lynch not only their neighbor, but the Word of admin Himself? Where is the old LUEnited Nations? Where is /b/? Where is the IngSoc-like order that once was? I must admit that, while the efforts before and during Karma were just, it seems that we killed this planet. How ironic.

The only people that seem willing to 'do something about it' these days are either insignificant or incompetent, and throw what little weight that they have at the Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence, and Sadism. As mildly amusing as that is, it is not exactly original, nor exciting, though Walford would indeed be very proud (if he would not, in actuality, be laughing at all the pretenders, who hardly live up to his passion). GOONS doesn't seem to be hurting all that much, by the look of things. Just a bunch of suicides, with notes left behind that say, "I did it for the lulz." Not really all that lulzy.

That is not to say that I cry out for all of them to return. My point is merely that they are gone, and have not been replaced.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289667435' post='2511904']
I used to use that line. Also, "its not our duty to downplay our skill so to just make you more entertained by giving you a chance".

Form your own lines, mister
[/quote]

We took your advice and things turned out quite alright. Just trying to pass some wisdom on.

[JBone]

[quote name='Lezrahi' timestamp='1289672588' post='2511938']
[i]Lezrahi smiled.[/i]

It is likely because most of the passionate, and, if you'll excuse the terminology, most conniving, voices and personalities have departed, or have either relegated themselves, or been relegated, to quieter places. You, yourself, have been gone for quite a while, Starfox, and it is a pity. Where are the likes of Doitzel and Electron Sponge? Where are the dangerous and ballsy individualists, such as fransjosef and Monkey Theory? Where is the Federation of Armed Nations that once had that hard, unrelenting, and somewhat bloodthirsty voice? In fact, where is FAN at all these days? Where are the \m/en of old? The Neutral Shoving Goons? Those collectives of pure controversy and hate that would attempt to lynch not only their neighbor, but the Word of admin Himself? Where is the old LUEnited Nations? Where is /b/? Where is the IngSoc-like order that once was? I must admit that, while the efforts before and during Karma were just, it seems that we killed this planet. How ironic.

The only people that seem willing to 'do something about it' these days are either insignificant or incompetent, and throw what little weight that they have at the Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence, and Sadism. As mildly amusing as that is, it is not exactly original, nor exciting, though Walford would indeed be very proud (if he would not, in actuality, be laughing at all the pretenders, who hardly live up to his passion). GOONS doesn't seem to be hurting all that much, by the look of things. Just a bunch of suicides, with notes left behind that say, "I did it for the lulz." Not really all that lulzy.

That is not to say that I cry out for all of them to return. My point is merely that they are gone, and have not been replaced.
[/quote]

This is pretty much spot on.

Without characters such as Sponge, Slayer, Crymson, Moo (and his henchmen), [i]old[/i] GOONS and a [i]potent[/i] FAN to actually wield the power they possessed things have a become rather stagnant.

Gone are the days where alliances would scurry into the wind due to one mans words ( hi Atlantis, \m/ and PURGE) or be subjugated for no other reason than to amuse those in power.

Those in power now lack the ability to truly strike fear into the masses, sure they are well versed in smugness and inside jokes, but really pale in comparison with villains of yesterday.

How can these pretenders ever hope to galvanise opposition when the best they can come up with is ham handed thuggery for a botched trade circle/harbor deal?

Excuse me now while I go pay bills, collect taxes, make a few tech deals, check my trades and attend to all the other exciting things this brave new world has to offer.

Perhaps it should have been: Karma, what comes around...........bores you until your eyes bleed.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Taget' timestamp='1289668318' post='2511908']
4) The past is more of a straight jacket than anything else. Grudges of misdeeds and bitterness from three, four, five years ago do nothing. I've seen in other worlds the inability to finally get over them after they've long gone stale literally strangle the life out of them. It prevents folks from moving around, newcomers from understanding what is going on, and something new to arise instead of something that had grown tired long ago.

[/quote]
The whole premise for the karma war was revenge for things that happened years before. Now the same people are telling other alliances to just forget about gurdges, some of which are only months old and get together as friends to fight the three bigest blocs and their allies who probably out number us 2:1 or more.

[D34th]

So Starfox101after all this time you came back to say that you still think that moralism is immoral and that the stagnation in cyberverse is our fault even when the ones who rules this world nowadays are those who despise moralists?

And you who was part of Vox are talking about those waging a PR campaign?

Priceless...

[greenacres]

[ooc]infrastructure up to 5000 should be 1/10th the cost it currently is, after which it should see a significant jump to it's current price level. This would make it easier for new nations to get to a respectable size compared to all the behemoths around these days. Which in turn would give new nations a chance to grow at an initially fast clip, to a size that they may in fact stick around to participate[/ooc]

That being said, alliances are all too keen to keep the same tired old play going, season after season. It's like we're doing phantom of the opera (currently 900+ shows strong in greenacres), just the actors keep changing, because it's tried and true (hi pandora's box, it's not 2007 anymore) and no one wants to risk putting on an untested production, because it may bomb out after a few shows.

That's the only problem with the state of things, people are content to keep re-playing the same thing over and over again, substituting themselves in for the major parts. It's fun to be on top, it's fun to plot and scheme, but this isn't 2007 anymore, what's been done has been done to death.

Edited November 13, 2010 by greenacres

[Duke Nukem]

I wonder if a treaty reset for the whole game would do us any good?

[D34th]

[quote name='We Are Not Alone' timestamp='1289676973' post='2511989']
I wonder if a treaty reset for the whole game would do us any good?
[/quote]

You can reset the treaties but not the friendship among the alliances so it won't work.

[Omniscient1]

I love how people make long winded speeches about everyone needing to "do something". The time it took you to write this you could have been building a coalition. If you want someone to "do something about it" get up and do something yourself.

[KingEd]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1289677685' post='2511996']
I love how people make long winded speeches about everyone needing to "do something". The time it took you to write this you could have been building a coalition. If you want someone to "do something about it" get up and do something yourself.
[/quote]

I should, shouldn't I?

Edited November 13, 2010 by KingEd

[The Corrupt Teacher]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289624153' post='2511665']
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, because I'm out of my mind. But, the respect alliances can get for following their treaties and not attacking like 12 year old twats who need to be spanked goes along way. I know that's how Legio X got our treaty with TOP. I also know that TOP judged OMFG by that and now they still have that treaty. Reparations aren't the end of the world compared to what you can make them. If you're going to have a bad attitude about it than yeah, they'll blow chunks but, if you're like, "Hey we lost. We should just pay quickly so we can get back on our feet." reps will go along a lot better and you may find out a couple of new friends. I mean ****, Eldar and OTS were pretty tight after the war even if we were too lazy to sign a treaty or even discuss one.
[/quote]

lol Sweet Eldar popped up in a random conversation. I can now validate the 8 months I spent on it xD.

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1289674917' post='2511960']

Perhaps it should have been: Karma, what comes around...........bores you until your eyes bleed.
[/quote]

Pretty much

[uaciaut]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1289665302' post='2511873']
How am I part of the problem? And does that mean that you think that Alterego and yourself are part of the solution? I also find it disappointing that you in no way address one of my posts.
[/quote]

Don't bother with some posters, it's not really worth it. I was impressed at Alterego being able to rationally reply to your first post though.

edit: there are a lot of reasons why the game is stagnating, few if any lie in actual political parties as oposed to general attitudes and such.

Edited November 13, 2010 by uaciaut

[Sardonic]

It never ceases to be amusing to me how we are allegedly simultaneously tyrants, yet not tyrannical enough to be interesting.

[Schattenmann]

Hey old pal. I'll just say that all you have to do to figure things out is look at the government rosters of all the major players. Same names from 2 years ago, sometimes 3 or 4. They've all got the same mindsets, same prejudices, same squabbles about ancient history, same tactics.

Take this for example:

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1289619238' post='2511587']
I don't think Umbrella and their allies get enough credit for forming Pandora's Box and the shakeup that has occurred since. Count in Mushroom Kingdom too for canceling all their treaties and starting fresh. Both moves have added movement and unpredictability to politics that would have otherwise taken years to achieve (see Pax Pacifica for what Umbrella and Mushroom Kingdom could have otherwise done). In this day and age with NS so highly developed and specialized, activity more of a commodity than ever, and information streamlined to groups in the two previous categories any competiviness that we do have should be appreciated, and the efforts of groups like MK and Umbrella (and GOONS, yes, very much GOONS too) to increase competiviness is very much a sign of great gamesmanship. Which is all to say that the OP is swallow without mentioning the great effects brought about by several of the worlds preeminent powers.
[/quote]

This guy thinks that creating a bloc that is an extension of SF and C&G, or scrapping all your treaties then re-signing them is "movement" and "unpredictable."

There was a very brief moment, Starfox, a blink-of-an-eye window, but it's gone.

[JBone]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1289685335' post='2512166']
Hey old pal. I'll just say that all you have to do to figure things out is look at the government rosters of all the major players. Same names from 2 years ago, sometimes 3 or 4. They've all got the same mindsets, same prejudices, same squabbles about ancient history, same tactics.

Take this for example:



This guy thinks that creating a bloc that is an extension of SF and C&G, or scrapping all your treaties then re-signing them is "movement" and "unpredictable."

There was a very brief moment, Starfox, a blink-of-an-eye window, but it's gone.
[/quote]
Time for [i]This Week in the Kingdom[/i] perhaps?

[Kroknia]

[quote name='C Mos' timestamp='1289669680' post='2511921']
I can see why people would say raiding causes players to leave, especially since we only have about 20K people left... My guess is that they're afraid that the people getting raided will leave and there's a good chance that some will..

Don't get me wrong, I use to love raiding but that was back when I was actually able to find a target.
[/quote]
I haven't raided in years, or wanted to. It was, however, one of the reasons I stayed in the game when I was young though. One of the best alliances for member retention of newbies is GOONS... Why don't we all just raid again in the lower tiers? Makes the game more interesting when you're starting out.


[quote]This guy thinks that creating a bloc that is an extension of SF and C&G, or scrapping all your treaties then re-signing them is "movement" and "unpredictable."[/quote]

To be fair, it certainly got people of your ilk all riled up and trying, very poorly, to do things about it.