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[quote name='iMatt' timestamp='1287067351' post='2484441']
I think what quigon is trying to say is this:

The GOV versus RELIGION happiness bonus for having the correct one are not the same inherently. For religion it's like a "Free" +1, since you should *always* have the correct religion. For government, you often *don't* have the correct gov for good reason (ie choosing democracy over your preferred gov). In these cases, buying a GT *does not* give you an extra +1 happiness since you already had it. Buying a GM *does*, since you didn't have your preferred, but now you do.

Does that make sense?

Edit: I didn't read this current page, it seems quigon already explained it. (furthermore, I don't understand why this is under "debate". Quigon's statement about which is better was fact to me before I read this thread anyway.)
[/quote]

It sounds to me like you're arguing the opposite opinion of quigon's, though. He's trying to say that the GT is always better than the GM. You seem to be agreeing with Ironfist and I rather than quigon, which makes your 'edit' a bit confusing.

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[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1287075623' post='2484509']
It sounds to me like you're arguing the opposite opinion of quigon's, though. He's trying to say that the GT is always better than the GM. You seem to be agreeing with Ironfist and I rather than quigon, which makes your 'edit' a bit confusing.
[/quote]
Excuse me, what I wrote I wrote thinking it was +5 happiness off the bat for both. My reasoning stands that any positive effects of which gov choice you use will not factor into this discussion. You'd have those positive effects whether or not you purchased the wonder.

so GT=+5, we can all agree, GM=+4 when you have the desired gov already, and GM=+5 when you *don't* have the desired gov. You more often than not *don't* have the desired gov, since most of the time you'll be at Democracy and your desired something else. If we say 80% (may not be accurate) of the time desired gov isn't Democracy, then it'll average to GM=+4.8.

So max GM can be is +5.

Edit: for me personally, I'll still get the GM first, since it gives me mobility of gov choice, and on average is "almost" as good as GT (+4.8 from above).

Edited by iMatt

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[quote name='iMatt' timestamp='1287077756' post='2484533']
Excuse me, what I wrote I wrote thinking it was +5 happiness off the bat for both. My reasoning stands that any positive effects of which gov choice you use will not factor into this discussion. You'd have those positive effects whether or not you purchased the wonder.

so GT=+5, we can all agree, GM=+4 when you have the desired gov already, and GM=+5 when you *don't* have the desired gov. You more often than not *don't* have the desired gov, since most of the time you'll be at Democracy and your desired something else. If we say 80% (may not be accurate) of the time desired gov isn't Democracy, then it'll average to GM=+4.8.

So max GM can be is +5.

Edit: for me personally, I'll still get the GM first, since it gives me mobility of gov choice, and on average is "almost" as good as GT (+4.8 from above).
[/quote]

Hmm. Alright, thanks for clarifying. :)

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[quote name='Captain Nathan Brittles' timestamp='1286943973' post='2483239']
Just to clarify having the preferred government or religion DOES NOT give a +1 happiness bonus as has been alluded to a number of times in this thread. Having the preferred government or religion avoids taking a -1 happiness penalty. It's an important distinction.
[/quote]

This distinction is completely irrelevant - what matters is that a nation with correct religion has +1 happiness with respect to a similar nation in all regards but correct gov.

And also, depending on how you have your "base happiness" calculation it is possible that you actually will have to treat it as either a +1 or -1, respectively.

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1286950962' post='2483350']
Picking ANY government gives perks other than a +1 happiness point. Therefore, you state they're "economically the same", but really they're not, because the government offers more, depending on which is chosen.

Also make sure "chance" isn't mistaken for economical statistics and smarts. While there might be the "chance" that your people will want the gov you have, let's face it, the chance also suggests you won't get it.
[/quote]

Well my people currently want Democracy ;)

You are missing the fact that in most cases there is no reason to not have Democracy regardless of what your people want or what wonder you have.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1287075623' post='2484509']
It sounds to me like you're arguing the opposite opinion of quigon's, though. He's trying to say that the GT is always better than the GM. You seem to be agreeing with Ironfist and I rather than quigon, which makes your 'edit' a bit confusing.
[/quote]

The Great Temple is always at least as good as the Great Monument. It is never worse, ever (unless a ruler for some reason doesn't realize that having a non-desired gov is often the best government choice, but I guess at that point it is pointless to try to discuss intricate CN economics...), while the GM can be worse than the GT.


[quote name='iMatt' timestamp='1287077756' post='2484533']Edit: for me personally, I'll still get the GM first, since it gives me mobility of gov choice, and on average is "almost" as good as GT (+4.8 from above).
[/quote]

This is a more appropriate way to look at the difference (+4.8ish vs +5) between the two. It also shows that from a pure absolute standpoint the GT is always better though.. ;)

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[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1287088299' post='2484655']
You are missing the fact that in most cases there is no reason to not have Democracy regardless of what your people want or what wonder you have.
[/quote]

Missing what fact? Most people I speak to have either Capitalist or Federal as their bill paying government. Democracy is only useful for collecting, and the interest you have to pay after leaving your bills for a couple of days before switching gov back is actually LESS than the discount that Capitalist/Federal gives you on bills.

I actually don't know why you'd stay in Democracy all the time...

EDIT: Especially seeing as Capitalist/Federal offer an infrastructure purchase discount too, so you can keep it on either of those before you switch to Democracy in the event of buying infra.

[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1287088299' post='2484655']
The Great Temple is always at least as good as the Great Monument. It is never worse, ever (unless a ruler for some reason doesn't realize that having a non-desired gov is often the best government choice, but I guess at that point it is pointless to try to discuss intricate CN economics...), while the GM can be worse than the GT.
[/quote]

I don't think you're taking into consideration the extra things that governments offer. Happiness is not the only factor in gov. It's also environment, and it's (in some cases) population, or soldier efficiency, or land bonus. Or anything. They make GM better, possibly in a marginal sense but still better. I'd take it over a GT any day.

But arguing with you is pointless :rolleyes: Not like anyone's going to change your mind, and no one's going to change my mind.

Edited by Ironfist

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[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1287132778' post='2485148']
Missing what fact? Most people I speak to have either Capitalist or Federal as their bill paying government. Democracy is only useful for collecting, and the interest you have to pay after leaving your bills for a couple of days before switching gov back is actually LESS than the discount that Capitalist/Federal gives you on bills.

I actually don't know why you'd stay in Democracy all the time...[/quote]

If you read my previous posts, I make the distinction that democracy is the best collection government. My apologies for not wording what you just quoted to also indicate such.

[quote]I don't think you're taking into consideration the extra things that governments offer. Happiness is not the only factor in gov. It's also environment, and it's (in some cases) population, or soldier efficiency, or land bonus. Or anything. They make GM better, possibly in a marginal sense but still better. I'd take it over a GT any day.

But arguing with you is pointless :rolleyes: Not like anyone's going to change your mind, and no one's going to change my mind.
[/quote]

There is nearly no reason to collect with a government other than Democracy (I listed these exceptions earlier). [b]In spite of this[/b] the Great Monument is NEVER better than the Great Temple, but sometimes equal.

The reason Democracy is such an ideal government is that it gives both an environment bonus AND a happiness bonus. It is true that a nation with a huge amount of land relative to infrastructure may be better off with Republic/Capitalist if the 5% land bonus is better than +1 happiness, but the levels of land required for this are such that nearly 20% of your citizens come from land - this is about a 5:1 land:infra ratio with the ADP. For the overwhelming majority of nations this is not the case. It is likewise true that for small nations, a desired gov of Monarchy/Totalitarian/Revolutionary may be slightly more profitable as well (technically large nations with perfect environment as well, but by this point nearly all have Great Monument anyways).


You cannot change my mind because the Great Monument is [i]never[/i] better than the Great Temple. The math and numbers simply do not support that argument. I do not think you are even considering the mathematical approach to this question - because it is a straight forward answer afterwards, Great Temple >= Great Monument always results.

Please describe a situation when the GM actually results in a more positive benefit than the Great Temple.

You have to look at "what is ideal collection government in large variety of circumstances?" and look at the math. Not just use your gut instinct or whatever you've been using. Just an fyi too - gov has no direct effect on population (save soldiereff/environment/land effects). Soldier efficiency bonuses actually help Democracy be even a MORE superior government for the hardcore CNer, because if he/she is holding the absolute minimum ideal soldier count it would let him have a fair bit less actual soldiers (about 8% less) which will give a few more citizens.

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I've tried having this discussion on our forums as well and ran into the same problems of people making the situation way more complicated than it actually is. Stop arguing about government types. The only thing that is gained from having the wonders is happiness; not environment, not soldiers, not infra discounts. One wonder gives you a guaranteed +5 happiness, the other gives you +4 and probably another +1. No matter what government type you chose these are the benefits.

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