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Effective Mid Tier Nuclear Weapon Usage


CRexx

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A long time ago, a I wrote a little piece asking [url="http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=70609"]Why Aren't More Alliance Wars Nuclear?[/url]. The piece was inspired by Diskord's nuclear roguing guide and basically asked why the same concepts weren't applied on an alliance sized scale. That old thread is kind of fun to read for all the "Nukes are too costly in alliance wars" and "They're the easy button" comments, but the mechanics of that thread are definitely out of the date.

Allow me to start with the scenario. You're a smaller alliance in terms of pure member count. You're at the stage in life where you're either bored and want to do something about it (see FnKA as an example) or you have very real security concerns a much larger force is going to roll you (you pissed in Pacifica's cheerios as an example). So you're looking to set up your wonder purchasing and growth patterns in a manner that allows you fight a long and drawn out war.

The first thing to do is to accept that you're not going to remain with a high average NS for long. TOP, MK, Argent and others can do it since they're sitting on an insane amount of tech and warchests but that isn't the case for everyone. Your small member count ensures your members will be swamped in 3 v 1s (plus whatever offensive wars you have going) and ground down not just with nukes, but eating 6+ cruise missiles a day and 6+ bombing runs. So you're dropping in size, accept that. Now the question is how to build yourself to
optimize for that.

[i]Trades:[/i] I really shouldn't have to say this, yet giving the amount of crying I see about sanctions it seems people are hazy on the concept of securing their trades. You need to get secret trades to avoid getting slapped around by sanctions, get yourself on a team where you know you won't be sanctioned or more your inter-alliance trade circle over to gray. Look your income is going to crap for the entire time you're in nuclear anarchy, so don't stress over the lost happiness bonus. If the +5 happiness loss over off color or secret trading bothers you, odds are you don't have the stones to see a nuclear war through.

While we're on the subject, trades that increase citizen count, soldier efficiency and decrease military costs (iron, lead and oil are examples) are what you want to focus on. Infrastructure upkeep reducing trades are nice but not terrible useful when your infrastructure is being blown away by nukes that do 700-1000 infra damage per hit.

*As a side note, you will have to buy infra likely to build up to the 1k infra needed to buy nukes. If your trade department is insanely efficient, set up temp trading to get people construction when they need to buy infra and then swap them over to a military bonus set for when they fight.

**You should really like lead and the 20% off nuke costs it brings to the table.

[i]Improvements:[/i] Harbor and Foreign Ministry are given of course. Prior to roguing you should load up on the military improvements. Your citizen count is only going down once the war starts, so buy them why you can. Swap your banks and things like that out with guerrilla camps, missile defense systems and satellites.

[i]Wonders:[/i]
You MUST have: Manhattan Project, Central Intelligence Agency, Disaster Relief Agency and Federal Aid Commission

Very Nice To Have: Hidden Missile Silo

Nice To Have: Foreign Air Force Base, Weapons Research Complex, Pentagon

If You Have the Time and Lots of Spare Money: SDI, Anti-Air Defense Network, Fallout Shelter System

Now then people are going to jump all over me for not having the SDI as a must have. Yet you need to remember, we're not building for a long term nuclear slug fest here. The premise is that the nations here are fighting a much larger force which WILL grind them down. The nations I'm talking about are not the 100k NS behemoths but rather 40-50k NS nations that are starting to grab military wonders and tech but aren't fully loaded up on tech yet. These nations are going to drop in NS and end up fighting a non nuclear mid tier where they face non nuclear opponents. Long term the SDI isn't all that useful.

In other words the nation in question can spend 75 million on a SDI, but it only forces the attacking force to fire more nukes to swamp the SDI, it doesn't save these nations from being ground down in size. Personally I'd rather have that 75 million in the bank for a long run of nuclear strikes than to simply soak some nukes that will all be repurchased within 2 weeks anyway.

What you need wonders for are nuclear purchase and retention. The keys to a long term run as a rogue are: MP, CIA, DRA, FAC, Hidden Silo and 5 Intel Agencies (+ Max Spies). Basically the ability to buy nukes and protect your secret aid income from discovery.

[i]National Military:[/i] After nukes I personally see the air force as the second most valuable. After a few rounds of war you're going to be fighting people with lower level air forces. If you're sitting on 50-80 F-22s and Tu-160s you can have a lot of fun bombing runs even on the days you can't afford nukes to throw (also consider keeping a smaller air force if you are having cash flow problems, you don't need that many F-22s to shoot down F-86 Sabres). Assuming you're fighting 6 nations thats 12 bombing runs a day and in return you should be taking little to no damage since your F-22s should be destroying everything that wanders into your air space. So as you fall in NS, preserve the air force. As a side note: conventional wisdom often says sit on just a couple of bombers. However keep in mind once you're small you won't be able to buy replacement bombers of a high level. I advise more like 70/30 split on fighters to bombers. Those bombers are irreplaceable (See: Franz Josef). Aircraft upkeep reducing trades are very useful since you'll be sitting on a large air force.

Cruise missiles rank in after the air force. Thus satellite and missile defense improvements are your friends. Buy them and fire them.

Ground forces are a tossup here. For most of your career you're going to facing 3 v 1 odds and likely all three of those will have higher infrastructure than you (at least until you start popping nukes). You can offset these odds with Barracks, Guerrilla Camps, the Pentagon and trades to increase soldier efficiency/pop count but often you'll want to turtle since eating 1 defeat alert a day costs less than losing 6 ground wars per day. Here ground forces are nice to have, if as war cycle drags on you've nuked the other side to nothingness then by all means build up an army and ground attack, but at other times you're going to be turtling so ground forces aren't an every day weapon like missiles and bombers.

The Navy has some nice features. Submarine blockades (plus the nuke damage increase), carriers for a larger air force. All of those are nice items (and immune to nuke blasts) but personally I'd rather save the money spent on their purchase costs for a longer run with nukes.

[i]Alliance Military[/i]: Banks and a secure source of funds are the lifeblood of this operation. Period. All that military stuff I typed above is nice to have and lets you increase damage output but without secure aid your run will always be finite. Then the opposing force only needs the stones to outlast you. All nuking nations need all the spy boosting items to make sure secret aid stays secret, secure uranium trade and a MP to purchase nukes. That's basically it. The lifeblood of a long term operation is cash flow. A domestic warchest is nice, but it is always finite. Maybe over a very long time period but considering the nukes will either be in wars or in peace mode reloading nukes (with the peace mode econ hit) that warchest cannot be replenished by internal production. [u]The bank that sit around untouched, sled and send aid is the only way to keep this going long term.[/u]

So you're in alliance with say 30 members. Everyone has max spies, the DRA and FAC. Prior to launching your war you have say 5-6 banks drop out of the alliance. They cut all visible ties (edit nation bios, make sure all war and foreign aid records are expired and deleted) and run off to ghost someone or go join the GPA (The GPA: The Trendy Place To Hide Banks since 2006). This is an ideal job for your loyal but less warlike friends that kind of sorta love their pixels. They just off off and sit somewhere and look really inactive. Their goal of course is to be capable to generate aid, up to 54 million every ten days (6 aid slots to send 4.5 million at 2x the cost) and mail it out to the nukers. For the tech they can send out their own reserves or alternate between sending aid and buying tech from legit sources. I know in a lot of alliances every wants to fight, but when you assign people to banking detail remind them that without logistics there is no fighting and nuking.

*Aside: If you're attacked you of course don't have a chance to move the banks off AA. Here you have two options: Have the banks surrender and then sit on the POW AA and send aid, which means serious repercussions if they get caught. Or hope an ally is willing to slip you aid under the table from time to time.

**Second Aside: When moving banks, if you're moving to to a micro AA don't move them all to the same AA. If you have say 6 banks, don't make an AA of six banks. If one of those banks gets exposed by a spy op, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the other 5 nations with DRAs, FACs and CIAs sitting on that AA are also a source of funds. Spread them out and far apart so if one is compromised the others aren't.

The nukers meanwhile are of course fighting but at some point they're going to need more nukes. This if of course where the aid comes in. The ability to hit the floor required for your MP to function and of course the purchase cost of nukes.

This brings me to my second to last topic. I'm almost done I swear.

[u]Nuke Reloading[/u]: Now ideally your nukers will be able to pop over to peace mode. Hopefully the other side goofs the stagger up and when the wars are up the nuclear nation can peace out. Then reloading is simple, sit in peace mode and restock the nuclear arsenal over a period of time, without having to worry about losing infra/tech and dropping below the 1k infra and 75 tech requirements. In this scenario the WRC and Hidden silo are nice, since you only need 13 days in peace mode to grab 25 nukes and jump back in for fun. Whatever you don, don't exit peace before you have the full 25. Even if it means waiting an extra day or two for an aid package.

Realistically you're likely going to be stuck in war mode. So accept the aid, wait till right before update, buy up to the MP requirements and grab a nuke on either side of update. This is where the WRC is nice since you can grab 4 around update instead of 2. Also keep in mind, in this scenario you might only be getting a couple of aid package every ten days. So that means 2-4 nukes every 10 days, which is why a top level air force is your friend. Gives you something to do on those days you can't afford nukes.

*Depending on aid flow you might find you're having bill paying problems and end up needing to scrap things. If this is the case figure out which part of your military you're using the least and scrap those weapons and the improvements you had to up their efficiency.

[b]Target Selection[/b]:
Next to banking this is really what lets you make a long term nuclear run damaging. A lot of people seem to like to give into grudges or go after high profile targets (It's trendy to go nuke rogue on people like Moldavi, Moo, etc). This is great for just feeling self important but really doesn't do a lot of damage. Thus I present this target tree:

[i]People sledding:[/i] These are the sweetest target. One that needs up to two nukes and is worth every cent. Find a guy sitting at 15 days inactive and DoW while holding two nukes. If your target is active and smart he'll instantly collect (ground forces can useful here, if you can quad and slam enough ground attacks into him to anarchy him that's very nice). Once you can, drop a nuke to put him in nuclear anarchy (this will occur on Day 16 of the sledders inactivity assuming no collection). Wait 5 days and then drop a second nuke to keep the sledder in anarchy and for a collection in anarchy. Worst case the guy collects on Day 16 and loses 3 days of potential income, best case you force a full sled collection in anarchy.

*Advanced Fun: Work in groups of two or three when hitting sledders. Pick 2-3 sledders and quad them all. So 3 attacks all running high level bombing raids, cruise missiles and GAs. Then have one person tasked to each sledder to keep dropping nukes and keep them in anarchy until Day 26. This of course means you can also hit the sledders earlier on the sled if you're confident you can score a ground anarchy to start things off.

**Clearly if you have more nukes you can attack sledders earlier. Just make sure you have enough nukes to force anarchy until Day 26 of inactivity. Look around for people with 5 labor camps and hit them since odds are they're sledding.

****If the sledder does collect, you might not want to fill him full of nukes. If you forced a guy to scrap labor camps and do a panic collection on Day 4 of his sled you already cost him money (the money lost on improvement swapping). Drop a nukes and air raids off to rub salt into the wounds, but sit on part of your stockpile to ensure you scare your next target into doing the same.

[i]Tech Sellers[/i]: Look for the people accepting aid. Attack them, nuke them. Force them to spend that million fighting you as opposed to grow their nation. As a plus you screwed one of their larger nations of 100 tech.

*Also look for target nations selling tech to foreign parties. Hit them and make them default on the tech deal. It makes foreign parties wary to buy tech and reduces the cash flow coming into the alliance from external sources, thus slowing growth.

[i]Tech Raiders[/i]: If the alliance allows tech raiding, jump the guys who are actively raiding. Coordinate with their raid targets and also enjoy the circle of life.

*Raiders often have a high percentage of their military deployed for raiding purposes This often opens the door to sneak in with a quick ground attack or two and score an easy anarchy / defeat alert.

[u]In closing:[/u]
The biggest take away I want to push is: CIA, DRA, FAC and hidden banks. Are are more valuable than a SDI and WRC in certain forms of nuclear war. So if you're the kind of alliance that figures to spend a lot of time fighting at the mid tier level, plan your wonder purchases accordingly.

Beyond that, intelligent target selection and the stones to see it through means you can do a lot of damage. Not just in infra destroyed, but in lost income and retardation of mid tier growth.

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While right now I'm not within range of any nuclear nations doing so my SDI isn't in use, as the Ninjas and FnKa weaken up GOONS middle tier it might knock some nuclear nations into range, which would cause my SDI to become helpful in blocking most of what they have. Nice guide though. Lead and other military boosting resources are very helpful and FAC is a cheap wonder people often don't bother buying despite its usefulness.

Edited by Methrage
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[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1285958928' post='2471279']
Is this an alliance guide, or an individual nation guide?
[/quote]

It contains elements of both. I think of it as a white paper on how to build/use your nation and how your nation should be uses in an alliance sized strategy.

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[quote name='quigon jinn' timestamp='1285958928' post='2471279']
Is this an alliance guide, or an individual nation guide?
[/quote]
I think it could be used for both, as it mentions what the individual would need to prepare themselves and what an alliance could do if they want to be prepared on that level.

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285958887' post='2471277']
While right now I'm not within range of any nuclear nations doing so my SDI isn't in use, as the Ninjas and FnKa weaken up GOONS middle tier it might knock some nuclear nations into range, which would cause my SDI to become helpful in blocking most of what they have. Nice guide though. Lead and other military boosting resources are very helpful and FAC is a cheap wonder people often don't bother buying despite its usefulness.
[/quote]

Right on queue....yet another "oh, another person wrote a thread about me" response from you. Someone could write a guide about feeding ducks and you'd apply it to your war vs. GOONS. Give it a break, son.

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[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1285962386' post='2471326']
Right on queue....yet another "oh, another person wrote a thread about me" response from you. Someone could write a guide about feeding ducks and you'd apply it to your war vs. GOONS. Give it a break, son.
[/quote]

Well, you see here... The person throwing the bread is the upper tier of Ninjas and FNKA. The bread is the fresh GOONS meat. The ducks, are FNKA and Ninjas middle tiers ripping up the soggy bread. Now, I'm the little chick who gets to fill up on that bread. :v

Bad guide, imo. Your target system is okay but, could be improved on. Your wonders are a joke.

I also would suggest that you max out soldiers and tanks then sell your infra and or land. This way you can get those juicy targets without the SDI.

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[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1285962386' post='2471326']
Right on queue....yet another "oh, another person wrote a thread about me" response from you. Someone could write a guide about feeding ducks and you'd apply it to your war vs. GOONS. Give it a break, son.
[/quote]

I think he was providing a small counterexample to the OP's point that SDI's are not very important. Relax a little.

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The fallout shelter is useless if you are on the side getting stomped. SDIs are important to the larger side of the war. The sooner the nukes run out the better. It wont change the outcome but it will reduce damage taken in the medium to long term. Banks are outdated, every nation over 4999 infra should be its own bank.

Edited by Alterego
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[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1285957006' post='2471251']
If You Have the Time and Lots of Spare Money: SDI, Anti-Air Defense Network, [i][b]Fallout Shelter System[/b][/i]
[/quote]
I can't imagine why you'd want that; it's like the FAC of mil wonders. Worse, since at least the FAC doesn't detract from your abilities, FSS makes war harder. :v:

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[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1285963169' post='2471339']
Bad guide, imo. Your target system is okay but, could be improved on. Your wonders are a joke.

I also would suggest that you max out soldiers and tanks then sell your infra and or land. This way you can get those juicy targets without the SDI.
[/quote]
I dunno, I might shift around wonders in the bottom 3 tiers but the "must haves" seem spot on for long-term nuke war in the mid/low tiers.

And why sell down if you're already in range of something without an SDI? I'd say that depends on the situation.

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if you want to survive, all those wonders you listed but the FSS are actually rather important. the FAFB provides for a larger air force and AADN provides for less damage from incoming attacks. if the war is nuclear, then you must surely be nuts to not have an SDI. WRCs are excellent as the increase in damage from nukes will help destroy your opponents, same with pentagons and regular attacks.

now the FAC is almost useless unless you are a rogue as most people don't have FACs unless they are really bored and have no other wonders to buy at the moment.

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[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1285965368' post='2471392']
I think he was providing a small counterexample to the OP's point that SDI's are not very important. Relax a little.
[/quote]

Hardly. This is maybe the 20th time he has appeared in a thread to talk about himself and his war vs. GOONS. Most of the time people have to tell him that what he says is inapplicable. In this thread, he has made the assumption that going long-term rogue is a normal thing to do, and that the fact he has an SDI yet not enough NS to use it is useful information.

As to the OP, I prefer my rogues to [i]not[/i] know what they're doing, damn you! :v:

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[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1285975246' post='2471604']
I can't imagine why you'd want that; it's like the FAC of mil wonders. Worse, since at least the FAC doesn't detract from your abilities, FSS makes war harder. :v:
[/quote]
No, no it doesn't.

I fought destro in part to test it out. It complicates things, but it's definitely useful, particularly for air.

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[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286009969' post='2472077']
Hardly. This is maybe the 20th time he has appeared in a thread to talk about himself and his war vs. GOONS. Most of the time people have to tell him that what he says is inapplicable. In this thread, he has made the assumption that going long-term rogue is a normal thing to do, and that the fact he has an SDI yet not enough NS to use it is useful information.

As to the OP, I prefer my rogues to [i]not[/i] know what they're doing, damn you! :v:
[/quote]

Most of the time, maybe. This time, I do believe that his point is applicable.

[QUOTE]In this thread, he has made the assumption that going long-term rogue is a normal thing to do[/QUOTE]

Well that is the point of this thread.

[QUOTE]and that the fact he has an SDI yet not enough NS to use it is useful information.[/QUOTE]

Or, that he may not have the NS to use it currently, but if you're talking about large scale roguery (Ninjas/FnKA + GOONS) you might get some nuke capable nations dragged down to your range.

Taking Methrage's nation out of the picture...

Assuming you go rogue with a decent amount of tech (let's say ~4k), by the time you hit ZI you'd probably still be sitting at 3k tech or more. That puts you at around 15k NS-20k NS, not including the additional 1k infra you'd buy for repurchase. Finding a nation with nukes in that NS range isn't too improbable IMO, not to mention the fact that you may drag down some higher NS people who would be happy to stay in your range to continue nuking you.

I also think there is great psychological satisfaction you get from thwarting a nuke (especially from low NS people who don't want to waste the bills on maintaining more than ~5)

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1285992136' post='2471907']
if you want to survive, all those wonders you listed but the FSS are actually rather important. the FAFB provides for a larger air force and AADN provides for less damage from incoming attacks. if the war is nuclear, then you must surely be nuts to not have an SDI. WRCs are excellent as the increase in damage from nukes will help destroy your opponents, same with pentagons and regular attacks.

now the FAC is almost useless unless you are a rogue as most people don't have FACs unless they are really bored and have no other wonders to buy at the moment.
[/quote]
Even in alliances wars if you need aid, if you have a FAC they can send you 4.5m instead of 3m, so even if they aren't doing it secret it makes a good difference in how much aid you can get. All the military wonders are pretty useful in their own ways.

Edited by Methrage
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There are enough minor flaws in this plan to turn what is a semi-decent strategy into crap. FAC is worthless as people will be able to spy your Foreign Aid eventually than hunt down your banks if you even have them. The FSS is worthless when trying to go rogue as it makes it harder to turtle when you're getting nuked repeatedly. Also switch out banks for military improvements? If you wish to potentially survive the encounter and rebuild thats probably one of the last improvements I'd delete besides Harbor, Staduims and Factories :P. I'd much rather delete something else over those. Also I'd say CMs are more important than Aircraft in a long term engagement because CMs are cheap. Aircraft with a WRC are extrememly expensive and will burn warchest quickly. (ditto for Navy) I'm not even sure I'd bother with them in the later rounds.

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[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1286032587' post='2472197']
Most of the time, maybe. This time, I do believe that his point is applicable.



Well that is the point of this thread.



Or, that he may not have the NS to use it currently, but if you're talking about large scale roguery (Ninjas/FnKA + GOONS) you might get some nuke capable nations dragged down to your range.

Taking Methrage's nation out of the picture...

Assuming you go rogue with a decent amount of tech (let's say ~4k), by the time you hit ZI you'd probably still be sitting at 3k tech or more. That puts you at around 15k NS-20k NS, not including the additional 1k infra you'd buy for repurchase. Finding a nation with nukes in that NS range isn't too improbable IMO, not to mention the fact that you may drag down some higher NS people who would be happy to stay in your range to continue nuking you.

I also think there is great psychological satisfaction you get from thwarting a nuke (especially from low NS people who don't want to waste the bills on maintaining more than ~5)
[/quote]


I meant he's so long-term rogue that he hasn't been in the NS to be nuked for several months. We don't have any members with SDI's or MP's that have gone rogue on anybody, so all our 8-9K NS nations haven't really had a chance to buy such wonders.

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The SDI is quite decent to have once you get into the "low" NS ranges, because there, even if someone has an MP, if you've got maximum spies (they likely won't) you can drain them of a lot of nukes quickly between the 2.5 required to hit you each day (on average) and the 1-2 you spy away.

Nations with only 10 nukes will hardly touch you at that point.

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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1285975215' post='2471600']
The fallout shelter is useless if you are on the side getting stomped. SDIs are important to the larger side of the war. The sooner the nukes run out the better. It wont change the outcome but it will reduce damage taken in the medium to long term. Banks are outdated, every nation over 4999 infra should be its own bank.
[/quote]
This is pretty true. You can't send out enough cash at a time to be able to rebuild a nation to that size. Even with 15 slots, you can only build a nation back up to 3200 infra from 0, and that's assuming a 1:1 ratio of banks to fighting nations. Banks simply don't work as well as they used to. Unless the nation does nothing but send out aid (aka no tech buying) it's not worth having a nation be a bank

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[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1286047613' post='2472395']
This is pretty true. You can't send out enough cash at a time to be able to rebuild a nation to that size. Even with 15 slots, you can only build a nation back up to 3200 infra from 0, and that's assuming a 1:1 ratio of banks to fighting nations. Banks simply don't work as well as they used to. Unless the nation does nothing but send out aid (aka no tech buying) it's not worth having a nation be a bank
[/quote]

I think the OP's idea was to be able to fund tons of people hovering around 1k infra indefinitely using secret aid from banks.

At that point you could do a fair bit of damage (albeit it would only be to an alliance's lower/mid tier) as you would be able to resupply all the nations who were running out of cash to let them continually nuke.

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SDIs are basically useless if you're fighting 3-6 nuclear nations, all of which only have you to nuke. They're going to get through.

Where it starts to become useful for a rogue is when you're down far enough that you're getting non-nuclear attackers.

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286089189' post='2472859']
SDIs are basically useless if you're fighting 3-6 nuclear nations, all of which only have you to nuke. They're going to get through.

Where it starts to become useful for a rogue is when you're down far enough that you're getting non-nuclear attackers.
[/quote]
If your fighting 3-6 nuclear attackers its not really that useful since you're going to get nuked daily anyways, I think it would be more useful if you're fighting 1-2 nuclear nations since you then you have a good chance of avoiding getting nuked a lot if you can block what they can produce daily after they run out. When all my opponents all nuclear I figure I'm getting nuked daily anyways, so whether someone has to waste 2-3 nukes before hitting doesn't really make a difference as someone else can make up for it.

Edit: Somehow I read your post wrong and thought you were saying the opposite, seems we agree.

Edited by Methrage
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