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GOON spy orders


JimKongIl

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[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285142930' post='2460794']
Its pathetic what GOONS are trying to force out of people as 'confessions' even if they are innocent to make it seem like they are making progress, good job to those who don't give into their demands and make each witch hunt a hassle for them.
[/quote]
I am sure your compliments to other nations and their leaders is akin to any upstanding citizen being told "Good job, buddy" by a derelict or hobo.
If you didn't get aid from this nation, then why are you here providing your stylish commentary to the argument?

I read the underground newspapers in your nation, the people don't trust you any more. There are hundreds ready to revolt, it was thousands until you unleashed a nuclear holocaust on them. The circus just left my capital city, perhaps it is headed your way. I think they had an opening for more carnies. You should do yourself, and Bob, a favor and hitch a ride with them.

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hmm..

I don't want this to be a precedent where whenever there's a problematic secret aid, then suddenly everyone with FAC is "legally" open to spy attacks.

I wonder what will you do if you have nobody to suspect at all, will you then ask everyone with secret aid record to divulge their aids to prove their innocence or risk getting spied?

I wish Jim would say it's not him. Will GOONS continue spying him nonetheless?

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[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285146172' post='2460813']I don't want this to be a precedent where whenever there's a problematic secret aid, then suddenly everyone with FAC is "legally" open to spy attacks.[/quote]
Normally you would just spy the nation receiving the aid - in this particular case that's completely out of the question for the range Methrage is in. Every time we have one of these contentious things everyone throws up their hands and wails about setting a bad precedent but the fact of the matter is it's not very likely that these exact same circumstances are going to be repeated.

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[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1285146550' post='2460814']
Normally you would just spy the nation receiving the aid - in this particular case that's completely out of the question for the range Methrage is in. Every time we have one of these contentious things everyone throws up their hands and wails about setting a bad precedent but the fact of the matter is it's not very likely that these exact same circumstances are going to be repeated.
[/quote]

No. You can't find out who sent the aid by spying on the receiver. Only the sender.

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[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285141868' post='2460784']
Who are you lobbying to? You should walk with your 270 mil in winnings and consider yourself lucky. Even if I gave Methrage public aid tomorrow you wouldn't get 90 mil out of me.
[/quote]


Make my day :) there is a list of people that have you on the list (I got like 5 pm's of top 50 nations you seem to have pissed of in the past)

Edited by oinkoink12
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[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1285150220' post='2460827']
Make my day :) there is a list of people that have you on the list (I got like 5 pm's of top 50 nations you seem to have pissed of in the past)
[/quote]

Add me to that list. I need some more casualties.

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[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285141868' post='2460784']
Who are you lobbying to? You should walk with your 270 mil in winnings and consider yourself lucky. Even if I gave Methrage public aid tomorrow you wouldn't get 90 mil out of me.
[/quote]
I like the cut of your jib.

You make a fuss out of your sovereignty and that it should not be infringed, then go on to say you'll aid whoever you damn well please without facing the consequences. So spying you is unacceptable, but aiding people we're at war with isn't.

You also make a big deal out of being spied on as if it should immediately lead to war (which is a reasonable stance), except that you spied the person back and got a successful info op on them. So if you really believe that seeing someone's warchest is a reason for war (as this is literally the only thing an info op could reveal besides secret aid that would bother someone), you just committed an act of war on someone even as you complain about people doing it to you.

So what is all this based on? It's okay for you to do it, but not other people? Does GOONS finally get to be on the opposite end of a might makes right argument?

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285146172' post='2460813']
hmm..

I don't want this to be a precedent where whenever there's a problematic secret aid, then suddenly everyone with FAC is "legally" open to spy attacks.[/quote]
This isn't and hasn't been the case. Just owning an FAC by itself is not enough evidence that they aided Methrage. If so, we'd be demanding a lot more spy operations. So far, we've only intended to spy on three people. Two of those ended up being the actual people who sent secret aid. The third one, well that remains to be seen. But the only possible outcome is that he did it, or he framed himself for some reason.

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285146172' post='2460813']I wonder what will you do if you have nobody to suspect at all, will you then ask everyone with secret aid record to divulge their aids to prove their innocence or risk getting spied?
[/quote]
No, we have plenty of ways of finding people. As I said Methrage is bad at keeping secrets. Once we can identify people, we confirm them with a number of circumstantial evidence. The evidence against Jim includes the following facts:

1) He has an FAC
2) He HAS sent secret aid to [i]someone[/i]
3) He switched off of orange team to do so
4) Methrage is the only person sanctioned on orange (the only reason to change colors) who has gotten secret aid
5) Methrage makes this too easy

Owning an FAC is not enough. Not liking GOONS is not enough. The only way you're a suspect is if Methrage guides us in your direction (he doesn't realize he's doing this), and we can confirm you have sent secret aid on a color Methrage isn't sanctioned on (there aren't many of those).

Not only that, the only way these clues could lead to a false conviction would be if the person is intentionally planting evidence against themselves, which they'd only be doing if they wanted to start a fight.

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[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285131585' post='2460637']
Several minutes after posting in the Goons DoW thread a few nights ago I received 2 foreign aid offers, one from Beefspari of Goons and another at that exact second from Mandolus, also of Goons then 15 seconds later they both cancel. I assume they are checking my aid slots validity after posting and I blow it off. Tonight I receive after 2 unsuccessful spy attempts on my nation by a top ten nation:

To: JimKongIl From: ************* Date: 9/21/2010 10:36:59 AM

Subject: Lol spy

Message: hey for arguments sake.
Dude from goons asked if I wanted to spy you for sending aid to a guy named Methrage?

As my both spy opps failed.

I might as well ask you.
Did you do it ? :P

*************

-------------------------------------------------

I have already stated that I view spy operations as acts of aggression and I demand that Goons recognize my right as a sovereign nation to refuse consent to unlawful search. I would highly recommend that and future spy attacks on my nation from Goons be accompanied with a legitimate DoW.

Consider this fair warning that the next spy operation on my nation will likely be met with a counter attack.
[/quote]
I don't know what I'm missing here (ooc its early as hell occ)...

1 of the foreign aid slots is dated the 16th.

3 others are dated the 19th.

1 has ???????????? which means that this aid is being received. Don't you all recall with Corinan how nothing shows for the sender and the receiver gets the ???????. C'mon people....I'm assuming this slot is from today and here is my question....

4 slots we know were dated before tonight. Were these slots from the 16th and 19th already showing? If they were and then he received the two offers and both went through that would be 6 slots so it would mean that no, he did not aid Methrage. Question is what do you mean by several nights ago? How many visible slots were in use when GOONS aided you to see?

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285151636' post='2460834']

2) He HAS sent secret aid to [i]someone[/i]

[/quote]
I'll note again ??????????? is JimkongIl receiving aid not sending.

[b]Edit:[/b] he has 5 slots for sure in use right now....if you send 2 offers or have you already to confirm that he sent aid out? You need to do that right now if you haven't already. ???? is receiving, not sending.

Edited by Fernando12
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[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285139310' post='2460761']
I am stationary, Umar. I am responding to offensive acts against my nation by your alliance. I have chosen to not escalate this into war provided there are no more attacks on my sovereignty. It is your move and your alliance's decision whether they choose to escalate things.
[/quote]

Btw you just spied on me, isnt that an attack on my sovereignty? or is that BS only valid in your case?

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[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285152672' post='2460842']
I don't know what I'm missing here (ooc its early as hell occ)...

...

I'll note again ??????????? is JimkongIl receiving aid not sending.s receiving, not sending.
[/quote]
We know this, the check was made several days ago and there wasn't a ??????? then, but one of his slots was mysteriously filled. The spy ops didn't take place until several days after we already confirmed he had sent secret aid.

EDIT: Besides which, his aid screen only shows 5 aid slots in use. Trying to send him anything reveals:

"That nation has too many active foreign aid agreements at this time. Please wait until these agreements expire before attempting to send aid."

Edited by Beefspari
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[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285151636' post='2460834']

No, we have plenty of ways of finding people. As I said Methrage is bad at keeping secrets. Once we can identify people, we confirm them with a number of circumstantial evidence. The evidence against Jim includes the following facts:

1) He has an FAC
2) He HAS sent secret aid to [i]someone[/i]
3) He switched off of orange team to do so
4) Methrage is the only person sanctioned on orange (the only reason to change colors) who has gotten secret aid
5) Methrage makes this too easy

Owning an FAC is not enough. Not liking GOONS is not enough. The only way you're a suspect is if Methrage guides us in your direction (he doesn't realize he's doing this), and we can confirm you have sent secret aid on a color Methrage isn't sanctioned on (there aren't many of those).[/quote]

If the points you presented are correct, then I agree that in this current case, the case against Jim is quite strong.

However, supposedly people are being smart, then there would be no point 3-5. In that case, there would be no point two, not easily at least. Things can end up a witch hunt on everyone with FAC. Will GOONS still pursue the case?

[quote]
Not only that, the only way these clues could lead to a false conviction would be if the person is intentionally planting evidence against themselves, which they'd only be doing if they wanted to start a fight.
[/quote]

Again, supposedly the points that exist are only point one and two (owning FAC and has sent something). Is declining to reveal the secret aid recipient included as being "intentionally planting evidence against themselves" or "want to start a fight"?

Please note that I'm not trying to demonize or anything, just trying to understand the line of reasoning.

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[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285153308' post='2460847']
We know this, the check was made several days ago and there wasn't a ??????? then, but one of his slots was mysteriously filled. The spy ops didn't take place until several days after we already confirmed he had sent secret aid.

EDIT: Besides which, his aid screen only shows 5 aid slots in use. Trying to send him anything reveals:

"That nation has too many active foreign aid agreements at this time. Please wait until these agreements expire before attempting to send aid."
[/quote]
Agreed. I just tried and got the same cant send message.

Spy ops will prove it if he did or didnt.

I dont know what he says he posted but I assume he pointed suspicion in his own direction so he cant complain about being spied.

If goons wars him it will cost more than $90mil and more than likely he will never pay so is it worth it to go after him?

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[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285155471' post='2460855']
If the points you presented are correct, then I agree that in this current case, the case against Jim is quite strong.

However, supposedly people are being smart, then there would be no point 3-5. In that case, there would be no point two, not easily at least. Things can end up a witch hunt on everyone with FAC. Will GOONS still pursue the case?



Again, supposedly the points that exist are only point one and two (owning FAC and has sent something). Is declining to reveal the secret aid recipient included as being "intentionally planting evidence against themselves" or "want to start a fight"?

Please note that I'm not trying to demonize or anything, just trying to understand the line of reasoning.
[/quote]
Can you think of any other reason why he would need to change off of orange team to send secret aid, and then change back as soon as he can? Methrage is the only person on orange who has gotten secret aid. He obviously didn't change his team color for his trades, so either he changed to send secret aid (and again, the only person sanctioned on orange who got secret aid is Methrage), or to bait us.

Do normal people who own FACs switch teams before sending for no reason?

Points 3-5 are important ones, please don't dismiss them. Jim has a long history on orange, so why would he want to change teams right around that time otherwise? Methrage is sanctioned on orange. He couldn't send the aid otherwise. If he had sent secret aid and not changed teams, he would not be a suspect.

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[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285155537' post='2460856']
Agreed. I just tried and got the same cant send message.

Spy ops will prove it if he did or didnt.

I dont know what he says he posted but I assume he pointed suspicion in his own direction so he cant complain about being spied.

If goons wars him it will cost more than $90mil and more than likely he will never pay so is it worth it to go after him?
[/quote]

Yes war is totally worth more than 90mil. The good thing is that it will cost Raidon a lot more than 90 mil as well. So if he did it he can either pay the 90mil or lose billions invested in infra.

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[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285155741' post='2460858']
Can you think of any other reason why he would need to change off of orange team to send secret aid, and then change back as soon as he can? Methrage is the only person on orange who has gotten secret aid. He obviously didn't change his team color for his trades, so either he changed to send secret aid (and again, the only person sanctioned on orange who got secret aid is Methrage), or to bait us.

Do normal people who own FACs switch teams before sending for no reason?

Points 3-5 are important ones, please don't dismiss them. Jim has a long history on orange, so why would he want to change teams right around that time otherwise? Methrage is sanctioned on orange. He couldn't send the aid otherwise. If he had sent secret aid and not changed teams, he would not be a suspect.
[/quote]

I am not arguing about point 3-5 in Jim's case. It's certainly against him that's for sure. I am not dismissing them.

I am asking what you would do if people are being smart and point 3-5 don't exist. So please do answer those inquiries :)

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[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285140205' post='2460770']
From checking out Umar and Jim's nations, and assuming no one else joins the fight on our side, it looks like Jim would take far more monetary damage than Umar would in a one on one battle. Two or three on one would be a massacre. I think he realizes this as well, hence the posturing.
[/quote]

Posturing? If he did it, he could just say yes and pay the money. A drop in the bucket for him.

If he didn't, he could say he didn't. Quite frankly it just looks like he doesn't feel concerned about your threats. The ball is in your court if you want to proceed with it, but don't expect that your going to cripple Jim more then your going to cripple yourself and your allies nations collectively.

To say that he'd take more monetary damage is misleading. The people attacking him would probably lose more infrastructure and technology then he would, and if its 3 on 1, then your looking at him dishing out far Yes, its more expensive when you have more, but regardless everybody involved would lose considerably more then 90 million or 270 million.

So the ball is in GOONS court, how much do you care about making your statement? Enough to throw hundreds of millions in "monetary value" away? Obviously Jim doesn't particularly care about your threats, so its time to see what your made out.

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[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1285155799' post='2460859']
Yes war is totally worth more than 90mil. The good thing is that it will cost Raidon a lot more than 90 mil as well. So if he did it he can either pay the 90mil or lose billions invested in infra.
[/quote]

Likewise, the people who attack him can lose billions invested in infra because they are upset that somebody wouldn't pay 90 million dollars.

If he cared about his infra, this thread wouldn't exist.

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[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285155942' post='2460860']
I am not arguing about point 3-5 in Jim's case. It's certainly against him that's for sure. I am not dismissing them.

I am asking what you would do if people are being smart and point 3-5 don't exist. So please do answer those inquiries :)
[/quote]
Point 5 will always exist, so that alone makes it easy. Methrage is great at helping us figure out who sent him aid. It's almost like he works for us. I wonder how long he can keep getting secret aid like that?

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1285156474' post='2460864']
If he cared about his infra, this thread wouldn't exist.
[/quote]
If he doesn't care about his infra, he could've just declared on GOONS right away. Why bother with a warning if he doesn't care about his infra? Maybe he thinks nobody will call his bluff. Maybe he thinks large nations can just do whatever they want without consequences. Maybe he's trying to make it seem like he's the victim.

Edited by Beefspari
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[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1285156474' post='2460864']
Likewise, the people who attack him can lose billions invested in infra because they are upset that somebody wouldn't pay 90 million dollars.

If he cared about his infra, this thread wouldn't exist.
[/quote]

We can share the damage. Plus I kinda like gaining casualties. So it doesn't really matter to me and my guess that others would be happy to get a piece of the action.

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[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1285157105' post='2460868']
Supposedly people are being smart.

But it is clear that you don't really want to answer my questions. So I won't push it further.
[/quote]
I can't give away all our secrets. We like hearing the excuse "I didn't think I'd get caught" too much.

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