An offical announcement from the Legion

[pezstar]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1284326416' post='2451445']
Sometimes actions have a profound effect, would you have been so easy to let go had the shoe been on the other foot?. And keep the good luck, I think legion and co will prosper without it
[/quote]

I edited my post to say something a bit more poignant. I'll go ahead and paste it here.

In summary, the actions that you claim still reverberate throughout the Cyberverse are actually only echoing around some dank cave in the corner of the world and have had absolutely no appreciable value. I'd hardly call it a profound affect.

If you'll think back to that day, you'd remember that Legion's options were war, then viceroyship, just plain viceroyship, or disband. I chose option three. Legion said "NO!" and chose option two. There were negotiations after I left. NPO was still planning to attack Legion. I didn't actually remove any of their options. I made a choice that much of the membership didn't agree with, so they made their own decision. How, exactly, does their decision reflect on me? I chose NOT to have a viceroyship. I chose the OPPOSITE of what they went through. I'm not claiming that I made the right decision. The right decision would have been war. But anyone who actually knows the facts cannot honestly believe that any of what the Legion chose to go through after my decision is BECAUSE of my decision. THEY chose the viceroy.

EDIT: I'm going to throw in that the reason I didn't chose war at the time was that it would have been Legion fighting without her biggest ally, ODN. ODN had given us notice that they were planning to cancel the treaty.

Edited September 12, 2010 by pezstar

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284326910' post='2451461']
I edited my post to say something a bit more poignant. I'll go ahead and paste it here.

In summary, the actions that you claim still reverberate throughout the Cyberverse are actually only echoing around some dank cave in the corner of the world and have had absolutely no appreciable value. I'd hardly call it a profound affect.

If you'll think back to that day, you'd remember that Legion's options were war, then viceroyship, just plain viceroyship, or disband. I chose option three. Legion said "NO!" and chose option two. There were negotiations after I left. NPO was still planning to attack Legion. I didn't actually remove any of their options. I made a choice that much of the membership didn't agree with, so they made their own decision. How, exactly, does their decision reflect on me? I chose NOT to have a viceroyship. I chose the OPPOSITE of what they went through. I'm not claiming that I made the right decision. The right decision would have been war. But anyone who actually knows the facts cannot honestly believe that any of what the Legion chose to go through after my decision is BECAUSE of my decision. THEY chose the viceroy.

EDIT: I'm going to throw in that the reason I didn't chose war at the time was that it would have been Legion fighting without her biggest ally, ODN. ODN had given us notice that they were planning to cancel the treaty.
[/quote]
a dank cave? ohh right a dank cave

Anyway forgive me I just got home and have digested more than a few Sambuca's so I am probably being unfairly obtuse, I shall retreat to my dank cave forthwith

...and shame on you ODN

[Haflinger]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284324428' post='2451379']
Again, that wasn't me. I was in Legion government for about a month. That's all. The only thing of any consequence whatsoever that happened during that time period was Purplegate.
[/quote]
Well, to be honest, that's not the story Benji told. And while he was often very emotional, I've never known him to be dishonest.

[pezstar]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1284328384' post='2451493']
Well, to be honest, that's not the story Benji told. And while he was often very emotional, I've never known him to be dishonest.
[/quote]

He was mistaken.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284326211' post='2451438']
So, what you're actually saying is that the folks in the Legion remember it and still allow it to affect them 3 years after the fact. [b]The folks who weren't in the Legion but who were friends of the Legion remember it and still use it as the primary basis for judging me[/b], despite the three year record I have of doing many other more important and larger scale things in STA. In summary, the actions that you claim still reverberate throughout the Cyberverse are actually only echoing around some dank cave in the corner of the world and have had absolutely no appreciable value.
[/quote]

What about those that aren't friends of legion and still use it against you?


@pez- I just couldnt resist.

[pezstar]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1284329032' post='2451513']
What about those that aren't friends of legion and still use it against you?


@pez- I just couldnt resist.




[/quote]

Well, we wouldn't be Chefjoe and Pezstar if we didn't hate on each other in public.

Edited September 12, 2010 by pezstar

[jooshbox234]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1284322325' post='2451318']
[img]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x107/Dapunks/legionwae.jpg[/img]
[/quote]



[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1284322765' post='2451334']
To say pez is to blame for Legion's problems today does Legion a discredit. So they have not changed or tried to improve themselves in any shape or form? They haven't learned to move on? They're pez's lapdogs? It is saying that Legion doesn't have the capability to help themselves and if that is true - then pez isn't to blame. It is Legion's fault.

That argument doesn't account for 3 years of them not having pez there to influence them and an alliance does change over 3 years, particularly in membership. If pez supposedly impacted Legion for so long - then Legion would've fixed it? Legion is not a helpless victim and they shouldn't be painted as such. They're an alliance and one person does not make an entire alliance.
[/quote]

Holy !@#$... How many times does the man have to say, she had NOTHING to do with our "failures" (which apparently is mocking MK in this thread), but she has a hand in our REPUTATION.

Jeez people, learn to read.

Edited September 12, 2010 by jooshbox234

[pezstar]

[quote name='jooshbox234' timestamp='1284330519' post='2451548']




Holy !@#$... How many times does the man have to say, she had NOTHING to do with our "failures" (which apparently is mocking MK in this thread), but she has a hand in our REPUTATION. We are in NO WAY blaming [b]anything[/b] on pezstar.

Jeez people, learn to read.
[/quote]

You just did. You blamed your reputation on me.

[hizzy]

[quote name='jooshbox234' timestamp='1284330519' post='2451548']she had NOTHING to do with our "failures" (which apparently is mocking MK in this thread), but she has a hand in our REPUTATION. We are in NO WAY blaming [b]anything[/b] on pezstar.

Jeez people, learn to read.
[/quote]

you literally just blamed her.

[jooshbox234]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284331088' post='2451565']
You just did. You blamed your reputation on me.
[/quote]

whhops, I guess that was a little fail...

[pezstar]

[quote name='jooshbox234' timestamp='1284331302' post='2451572']
whhops, I guess that was a little fail...
[/quote]

Now, in keeping with the fail theme, name one way in which I am responsible for your current reputation.

[Salmia]

[quote name='jooshbox234' timestamp='1284330519' post='2451548']




Holy !@#$... How many times does the man have to say, she had NOTHING to do with our "failures" (which apparently is mocking MK in this thread), but she has a hand in our REPUTATION.

Jeez people, learn to read.
[/quote]

Sorry but reputations comes from actions and you're claiming she had a hand in your reputation so she had to have done something to cause that. I did read and I still stand by what I said.

[Tautology]

Why assume it's blame? Maybe jooshbox234 was giving pezstar credit for Legion's current reputation.

[jooshbox234]

For the record, I said: "How many times does [b]the man[/b] have to say"

I never said it was my opinion. I wasn't here then, so I have no right to say anything. I was just repeating what HB said. Another fail read.

[pezstar]

[quote name='jooshbox234' timestamp='1284336015' post='2451722']
For the record, I said: "How many times does [b]the man[/b] have to say"

I never said it was my opinion. I wasn't here then, so I have no right to say anything. I was just repeating what HB said. Another fail read.
[/quote]

You said "We" at the end. Hymenbreach is not amongst the Legion anymore. You were speaking about him at the beginning and your alliance at the end. You lost the argument. You should let it go, rather than make yourself appear even more ridiculous.

[jooshbox234]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284336272' post='2451727']
You said "We" at the end. Hymenbreach is not amongst the Legion anymore. You were speaking about him at the beginning and your alliance at the end. You lost the argument. You should let it go, rather than make yourself appear even more ridiculous.
[/quote]

Well that whole last sentence was a fail

[FreeMason]

EDIT: I was wrong, my history was incorrect. If you would like to see where it was wrong, check pez's post below. I'm leaving the tl;dr because I still feel it's valid. Nevertheless, I'm just gonna drop this train of thought entirely.

[b]tl;dr: Pez's past actions have had a lasting effect on the Legion's reputation. However, her past actions are not by any means the only thing affecting the Legion's rep, and none of our internal issues are her fault.[/b]

Edited September 13, 2010 by FreeMason

[kulomascovia]

Indulging in this "competition" will only serve to legitimize it. This thread wasn't a very good idea.

[pezstar]

[quote name='FreeMason' timestamp='1284338452' post='2451775']
WoT time. tl;dr at the bottom for your convenience.

The history of our bad reputation, at least since I've joined, has gone from: "Lol paper tigers"; to "NPO lapdogs! And paper tigers! Lrn 2 fight and think 4 urselvz lol"; to "You guys can kinda fight but still lapdogs lolol"; to the current "Lolegion sucks lol."

I'll give that pez has very little to do with the current reputation of the Legion, which simply seems to be that we suck with little to no reasoning behind it. But, let's make a demonstration to show how pez's actions (in particular, the attempted disbandment) still have an effect on the Legion today, at least on reputation.

1st: Pez tries to do us a favor by getting us to disband. How this is a favor, I don't know, but let's continue on anyway.

2nd: Legionnaires say "Wait, this is an illegal action". Some of the more devoted members work to keep the Legion alive. But, diplomatically we're in a bad spot so we need help if we're going to survive. Enter NPO, who, despite the fact that they generally don't like us, is willing to help us stay alive. On the plus side, we survive. On the downside, viceroyship. Now, the important thing to note is that without action 1, action 2 would not have been necessary.

[/quote]


Point 2, on which all of your other points are based is patently false. I didn't just disband it because I felt like it. I did it because there were three options. Option 1 was war with NPO, which would have almost certainly resulted in a viceroyship when we lost. And we would have lost. Legion's biggest ally was ODN, and they had stated that they were not helping us, and intended to cancel the treaty. I know that Viceroyship would have followed the war because NPO told me that was the plan during negotiations. Option 2 was to forego the war and just let NPO take over with the Viceroyship immediately. Option 3 was to disband. I chose option 3. LEGION chose the viceroyship on their own, without an ounce of input from me. NPO was not benevolently offering to repair Legion. They were doing so under threat of war. Once folks decided to remain in Legion and negotiate with NPO, the viceroyship is what was decided upon. It was one of the options I didn't choose.

So no. No I did not cause the viceroyship.

Would you like to try again?

Edited September 13, 2010 by pezstar

[Lincongrad]

I'm a little late to the party, I know. Sorry, I've been [OOC]camping[/OOC].

I'd like to address the Pez parts of this argument, as pointless as I think they are.

As the only current member of the Legion who was in government during the disbandment, I think I am pretty qualified to make a statement about Pez.
Pezstar was a pretty damn good Foreign Minister. She screwed up in the disbandment.
Now, where myself and several of the posters in this thread disagree (Note I did not say Legionnaires, since they are by no means all Legionnaires) is on whether Pez is, in general, a bad leader. I think she's excellent. I have nothing but the utmost respect for STA and their foreign policy of late, and I know she is a big factor in that.
I think many Legionnaires and others make judgments on Pez and her leadership based off one incident, and then assume that anything remotely bad that they hear about her should be interpreted in an extremely negative way. The same way, in fact, that people judge the Legion.

In this, I think I have failed in my duties to educate Legionnaires as to the events leading up to and surrounding Purplegate. The disbandment was simply one wrong decision taken under intense pressure. It should not reflect on Pez's actions in general.

<3 Lincongrad

[FreeMason]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284339535' post='2451803']
Point 2, on which all of your other points are based is patently false. I didn't just disband it because I felt like it. I did it because there were three options. Option 1 was war with NPO, which would have almost certainly resulted in a viceroyship when we lost. And we would have lost. Legion's biggest ally was ODN, and they had stated that they were not helping us, and intended to cancel the treaty. I know that Viceroyship would have followed the war because NPO told me that was the plan during negotiations. Option 2 was to forego the war and just let NPO take over with the Viceroyship immediately. Option 3 was to disband. I chose option 3. LEGION chose the viceroyship on their own, without an ounce of input from me. NPO was not benevolently offering to repair Legion. They were doing so under threat of war. Once folks decided to remain in Legion and negotiate with NPO, the viceroyship is what was decided upon. It was one of the options I didn't choose.

So no. No I did not cause the viceroyship.

Would you like to try again?
[/quote]
Ok, so you didn't choose viceroyship and instead went for...the end of the alliance? That seems somewhat worse. If those were my options, personally, I'd have rather fought. Obviously would've still ended badly, but at least it's not rolling over and dying.

And I apologize for my misunderstanding of the events. Obviously my understanding of those events is imperfect. Nonetheless, disbandment forced the Legionnaires who wanted the Legion to survive into a situation where they didn't even really have the option to fight.

In any case, what's past matters little. I was really just trying to get a definitive answer to whether or not our current affairs are still affected by you, so we could get off that topic of discussion, as it's really not even close to the main point of all this. Probably would've worked better if I didn't muck up the history. I feel my tl;dr still stands. Details, obviously wrong. But the disbandment was still something which has shaped us, and thus has continued to affect us.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='FreeMason' timestamp='1284338452' post='2451775']
"You guys can kinda fight but still lapdogs lolol
[/quote]

To intercede, no one has ever said this. I'm not sure where you even came up with this but no one has said you guys can even kinda fight. jooshwhatever is unironically showing why people think you suck. Stop doing dumb threads and moves, keeping yourselves out of the public spotlight, and working on improving internal matters would be the way to go. Trying to mock your mockers and then having it blow up in your face is not the course I would have taken.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Matthew Conrad

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1284340918' post='2451827']
To intercede, no one has ever said this. I'm not sure where you even came up with this but no one has said you guys can even kinda fight. jooshwhatever is unironically showing why people think you suck. Stop doing dumb threads and moves, keeping yourselves out of the public spotlight, and working on improving internal matters would be the way to go. Trying to mock your mockers and then having it blow up in your face is not the course I would have taken.
[/quote]

What makes you say we can't fight? We've done, if not the best, certainly decently in the last few wars. I'm also curious to know which aspect of not being able to fight you're claiming: our NS? Our ANS? Our nukes? Our staying power? Our knowledge of game mechanics?

We tried staying out of the spotlight: it pretty clearly doesn't work. We're trying a new approach where we're going to attempt to have at least some communication, however negative, with our detractors.

I, personally, cared deeply about the WAE contest. It was shocking to me how undereducated regarding the Legion's past and present most people are, although of course the result was somewhat expected due to the side of the web we fall on. In a contest as predictable as the WAE contest, how could we help but do a little giggling?

So, here it is. Feel free to ask anything you want about the Legion, or inform us why we suck. We'll do our best to refute your points, agree with them, or agree to disagree. You'll probably get several varied answers and opinions on each question, but that's in the nature of the alliance.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Lincongrad

[Lusitan]

[quote name='FreeMason' timestamp='1284340570' post='2451817']
Ok, so you didn't choose viceroyship and instead went for...the end of the alliance?
[/quote]

Careful about that statement, I am sure plenty of people would reply they'd rather you disbanded instead of accepting the viceroyship

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1284341816' post='2451840']
Careful about that statement, I am sure plenty of people would reply they'd rather you disbanded instead of accepting the viceroyship
[/quote]

Very true. And those people, frankly, can shove it. I like the Legion community far too much.