Oh well, It is what it is...no real proof though

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Choader' timestamp='1283669804' post='2442380']
It's not often you get a thread where every involved person ends up with their credibility shot to hell.
[/quote]I'll have you know that my credibility is fresh like a spring breeze.

[Biazt]

Welp, apparently no one has ever heard of punitive damages.

[heggo]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283670111' post='2442387']
Welp, apparently no one has ever heard of punitive damages.
[/quote]
I believe the word you're looking for is extortion, not punitive damages, actually. Edit: Also, this PZI thing is an interesting request.

Edited September 5, 2010 by heggo

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1283669808' post='2442382']
(7:48:44 PM) Beefspari[GOONS]: If you guys allowed us to spy on him, we wouldn't hold his actions against the whole of NSO.
[/quote]
So basically they got permission to spy on Dopp by threatening to hold it against the entire alliance if they weren't allowed to spy on him. or implying they were already holding it against the entire alliance until they were allowed to spy...

[Marneus Calgar]

Wait so NSO will give up one of their own but will defend a rogue with their entire alliance.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Davian Thule

[Heft]

[quote name='Davian Thule' timestamp='1283670394' post='2442391']
Wait so NSO will give up one of their own but will defend a rogue with their entire alliance.
[/quote]
Neither of those things have happened, so....

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]As far as I'm concerned what GOONS is asking for is blatant extortion. 90 million for 3 million is beyond excessive, and beyond necessary. Furthermore, as far as I am concerned asking us to toss out a longtime contributing member in good standing is beyond disgusting. Less than 30 million in reps would be fairly reasonable, although still high, in my opinion. But the two options by GOONS are simply tasteless.

Do understand that I am not the final word in the NSO. But I figure I'd get my thoughts out there.[/color]

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1283670336' post='2442390']
So basically they got permission to spy on Dopp by threatening to hold it against the entire alliance if they weren't allowed to spy on him. or implying they were already holding it against the entire alliance until they were allowed to spy...
[/quote]You might as well give up who your uranium trade partner is. It would make all of this a lot more painless.

I mean, if this thread proves anything, it's that we're gonna find out eventually.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283670111' post='2442387']
Welp, apparently no one has ever heard of punitive damages.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]There is no way Methrage can cause 90 million in damage at that level. Even with the meager 3 million tossed to him by Doppelganger he will come nowhere near that level of damage. Your demands are unreasonable.[/color]

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283670907' post='2442397']
You might as well give up who your uranium trade partner is. It would make all of this a lot more painless.

I mean, if this thread proves anything, it's that we're gonna find out eventually.
[/quote]
Is trading resources with me now an act of war against GOONS as well?

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1283671076' post='2442399']
Is trading resources with me now an act of war against GOONS as well?
[/quote]Considering you are a sanctioned nuclear rogue... yes. Yes it is.

[heggo]

I asked Beefspari as to what this whole EoG business is. I guess it involves poetry and decoming wonders, or whatever else they feel like:

(2:01:51 AM) Heggo: I'm open to haggling
(2:01:59 AM) Heggo: but then you counter with a perma zi list
(2:02:28 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: It's not PZI, although I don't want to go into that discussion. His infra is really low anyway and I saw his warchest besides.
(2:03:07 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: But considering the fact that he knowingly and intentionally aided Methrage, that's a serious issue.
(2:03:12 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Some sort of reasonable compensation is in order.
(2:03:14 AM) Heggo: I dont understand how it isn't PZI
(2:03:22 AM) Heggo: I think we could reach a reasonable number
(2:03:29 AM) Heggo: but suggesting PZI sort of poisoned discussions
(2:04:11 AM) Heggo: also, i think the pzi issue is relevant.
(2:04:17 AM) Heggo: Perhaps sardonic just explained it poorly.
(2:04:20 AM) Heggo: I don't know.
[b](2:04:38 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: PZI implies permanent, we have only one EoG at the moment and he declares new wars on us every week. EoGs have opportunities to get out of it. But considering the seriousness of the situation and the blatant disregard, I won't lie, I would probably recommend it involve touching wonders.
[/b](2:05:47 AM) Heggo: So you would make Dopp decom wonders? I mean, I'm just asking so I understand what your requests are here
(2:06:27 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: The FAC at least
(2:06:48 AM) Heggo: Multiple wonders?
(2:06:53 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Here's what I'm saying,
(2:06:57 AM) Heggo: I see. What other sorts of things come with that.
(2:07:07 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: We posted a thread that plainly stated that if anyone aided Methrage it would be an act of war.
(2:07:21 AM) Heggo: No no no no, let's not bother with that right now
(2:07:32 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: He did it anyway, fled from us, lied about it, and caused a lot of issues. He may have only sent $3m, but we lost spies trying to spy him, and got nuked a lot.
(2:07:35 AM) Heggo: I think explaining how this EoG stuff works would be important to us
(2:07:45 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: What we want is some sort of compensation.
(2:07:45 AM) Heggo: for the sake of mutual understanding.
(2:07:50 AM) Heggo: I'm told there are usually 3 options
(2:07:58 AM) Heggo: so one would be to decom a couple wonders.
(2:08:00 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: If you're going to protect him it's reasonable I think to ask for something in the range of $90m
(2:08:06 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Honestly TOP paid $90m for him
(2:08:12 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: And was expecting to pay $120m
(2:08:14 AM) Heggo: What sorts of things could dopp expect for the other 2?
(2:08:32 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: The EoG option is more if you guys aren't going to protect/harbor him or have his back.
(2:08:44 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: It's more you declare him a rogue, in which case we now have a beef with him, which means EoG.
(2:08:46 AM) Heggo: Well this is just politics aside right now
(2:08:55 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: EoG means war until we negotiate some sort of surrender with him on our mercy board.
(2:09:08 AM) Heggo: Yeah, but I mean, what would Dopp expect to have to do
(2:09:12 AM) Heggo: just so I can explain it to him
(2:09:18 AM) Heggo: since ultimately which he picks is his decision
(2:09:25 AM) Heggo: since we have all agreed dopp is the one liable.
[b](2:09:45 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: There are usually a few options, but the rules vary for EoGs. It would likely involve FAC destruction or some other kind of thing to make sure he can't just get off scott free or bounce back unharmed and be in a position to do it again or keep causing problems.
[/b](2:10:01 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Usually our terms are things like poems or pictures, but those go out to raid victims.
(2:10:07 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Not people who potentially could've started a war.
(2:10:32 AM) Heggo: So hypothetically
(2:10:36 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Really the fact that he did it despite the fact that we said it would be an act of war makes it very serious.
(2:10:42 AM) Heggo: option 1, delete his FAC
(2:10:43 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: You know how that went with GOD and them.
(2:10:50 AM) Heggo: option 2,
[b](2:11:22 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: No I'm sure all of the terms would involve deleting the FAC and/or some other things. Probably a poem or picture would be in there but that's not going to be the core focus for something as serious as he did.
[/b]

Edited September 5, 2010 by heggo

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1283671076' post='2442399']
Is trading resources with me now an act of war against GOONS as well?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]They tried threatening me over trading with you back when I was in RIA. There wasn't nearly as much bravdo as there is here though. Understandable that GOONS would become timid when dealing with a stronger party with more allies. Can't say I blame them.[/color]

[Biazt]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1283671010' post='2442398']
[color="#0000FF"]There is no way Methrage can cause 90 million in damage at that level. Even with the meager 3 million tossed to him by Doppelganger he will come nowhere near that level of damage. Your demands are unreasonable.[/color]
[/quote]
You realize than punitive damages is exactly the opposite of what you're talking about, right?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283671215' post='2442403']
You realize than punitive damages is exactly the opposite of what you're talking about, right?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Forgive me not being as enlightened a lawyer as you are, so I took the pleasure of looking it up. As far as I'm concerned this is still extortion. 30 mil would be more than enough to deter him in the future. 90 mil is just beyond excessive.[/color]

[Biazt]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1283671182' post='2442401']
:words:
[/quote]
Why exactly are posting these walls of text? Do you actually expect to get sympathy for a member of your alliance who willfully sent secret aid to a nation at war with GOONS and denied it throughout this thread?

Edited September 5, 2010 by Biazt

[Beefspari]

I'll clear up a couple things, although the actual negotiations for this won't be until later tomorrow. We're sort of at a standstill while both sides discuss.

For one, I said we wouldn't hold all of NSO responsible for his actions [i]as long as they don't condone his actions[/i]. Assuming they intend to harbor him and not give him up or meet any terms, that would be pretty much condoning his actions. If they meet terms or leave him to his own devices that's fine.

The EoG thing is not PZI (but let's not get into that), but that term maybe wasn't explained well by Sard. If you guys intend to keep him around and "support" him, we expect compensation for all the lost spies and nukes thrown. If you guys aren't interested in that and would rather boot him from NSO, that leaves him to his own devices, at which point we'd have a bone to pick with him. That's when the EoG would come in. If you aren't going to kick him out of NSO then the EoG thing isn't really an option anyway. But that would come down to harboring/supporting him.

Three, he committed a direct act of war against our alliance. Let's not forget that fact. Technically if we wanted to, that's a fine CB (and not one that NSO is unfamiliar with either). We posted a thread saying don't aid Methrage, and he did anyway. We're looking to reach a conclusion here, so not being willing to meet us means you're pretty okay with him committing acts of war against us without being compensated for it. Disagree with the amount of terms or not, if you're going to let him run around doing things like that and not kick him out for practically starting a war, you should be expected to pay for his mistakes. Sometimes, mistakes are big.

So that's basically it as I see it. One, you take responsibility for your member openly defying GOONS and committing an act of war by paying for his mistakes in cash (or tech or whatever). Two, you disown him for being so reckless and trying to start a war and we fight him because he's no longer your concern anyway. Or three, you guys say no thanks to everything and we go from there.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1283669808' post='2442382']
Thing about that permission is that it was contingent on an agreement which Sardonic apparently isn't overly interested in honoring. Funny how that happens:

(7:53:54 PM) Beefspari[GOONS]: Well if he was acting individually then we won't hold his actions against NSO as a whole. We would expect some compensation of some kind considering that was money sent to Methrage for the express purpose of having him nuke us.
...
(7:48:44 PM) Beefspari[GOONS]: If you guys allowed us to spy on him, we wouldn't hold his actions against the whole of NSO.
...
(1:41:52 AM) Heggo: Sardonic
(1:42:03 AM) Heggo: I have it in no uncertain terms from Beefspari that only Dopp will be liable for this.
(1:42:19 AM) Sardonic[GOONS]: liable financially, not as an act of war.
(1:42:41 AM) Sardonic[GOONS]: now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to sleep.
...
(1:49:34 AM) Beefspari[GOONS]: I said several times that we won't hold all of NSO responsible as long as you aren't going to condone his actions.

Edit:
Full logs of my chat with beefspari: http://pastebin.com/zFpsGUfr
tl;dr Since NSO agreed to let GOONS spy on Dopp, only Dopp will be held responsible. There was a spirit of reasonability and fairness pervading these talks.
Full logs of my talk with Sardonic: http://pastebin.com/HAVWEFTh
tl;dr We want 90 mil or we want Dopp to be unconditionally put on a war list and we will only remove him maybe if he writes an essay that we like later.
[/quote]

How do the two not comport? He is being held responsible as an individual, however if he as an individual does not agree to take that responsibility, it is up to you to determine whether or not you wish to keep protecting him and up to GOONS to attack him.

Sounds pretty much like any normal rogue type issue.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1283671374' post='2442404']
[color="#0000FF"]Forgive me not being as enlightened a lawyer as you are, so I took the pleasure of looking it up. As far as I'm concerned this is still extortion. 30 mil would be more than enough to deter him in the future. 90 mil is just beyond excessive.[/color]
[/quote]
Well, we disagree then. 30m is but a drop in the bucket for a nation with over 1.3 [b]BILLION [/b]in the bank. Even 90m isn't much in my opinion, and neither is FAC destruction.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Biazt

[heggo]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283671407' post='2442406']
Three, he committed a direct act of war against our alliance. Let's not forget that fact. Technically if we wanted to, that's a fine CB (and not one that NSO is unfamiliar with either). We posted a thread saying don't aid Methrage, and he did anyway. We're looking to reach a conclusion here, so not being willing to meet us means you're pretty okay with him committing acts of war against us without being compensated for it. Disagree with the amount of terms or not, if you're going to let him run around doing things like that and not kick him out for practically starting a war, you should be expected to pay for his mistakes. Sometimes, mistakes are big.
[/quote]
As a note, the NSO counterpoint here would be that you did specifically state that you wouldn't hold the NSO at large responsible for his actions thus making that a completely illegitimate CB, a CB that you waived when we waived the spying one. The fact that Dopp asked me to represent him in negotiations does in no way alter that agreement from our end.

[Vol Navy]

I would support perma-zi for Fernando at this point. I kinda hope GOONS pay him for this imformation by raiding him back to ZI.

[heggo]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1283671427' post='2442407']
How do the two not comport? He is being held responsible as an individual, however if he as an individual does not agree to take that responsibility, it is up to you to determine whether or not you wish to keep protecting him and up to GOONS to attack him.
[/quote]
Perhaps you misunderstood and would better see the issue after reading the logs in full or something. Sardonic et al were threatening war on the whole of the NSO.

Edited September 5, 2010 by heggo

[Ragashingo]

Alright, let me throw in a few thoughts of my own on all of this.

1. Aiding Meth was stupid. Very stupid.
2. 90 million in reps is beyond excessive. The most I would accept is the actual damage done by Meth with that 3 million + some token amount (like 15 million) as punitive damages. (Of course if that comes out to 90 million somehow then it isn't excessive after all )
3. Given the logs with beefspari I'd say war shouldn't even be on the table.
4. If war is on the table I would hope that NSO protects their member despite his stupidity. This assumes that the reps request remains absurdly high of course.

By the way. I sat in on those talks with Sardonic as a courtesy to Heggo. We've talked about a variety of subjects in the past and I find him agreeable. I'm not STA government or anything and certainly wasn't there to threaten or imply STA intervention. That said I do frown upon being dismissed as bad moderation. I mainly stayed out of the way and offered my opinion a couple of times. If things had gotten unruly I would have suggested to both sides that they reconvene later. Basically that's all to say that when I get asked to moderate something I take my role very seriously and try and treat both sides equally.

Anyway, best of luck to the NSO. It's a sticky situation but hopefully goons won't try and blow it out of proportion.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Ragashingo

[LittleRena]

I look forward to the $3million war.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283671403' post='2442405']
Why exactly are posting these walls of text? Do you actually expect to get sympathy for a member of your alliance who willfully sent secret aid to a nation at war with GOONS and denied it throughout this thread?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'm not saying he was right to do what he did, but it is 3 million. That is absolutely nothing. The actions and consequences you are seeking are excessive and uncalled for. It's a hundred thousand dollar fine for stealing a stick of bubblegum, or a hundred or so lashes. You are not so interested in right, just, and fair amends so much as you are in beating down, shaking up, threatening, and extorting a smaller and weaker party which in all practicality cannot fight back.

You must be compensating for something. Having to back down to RIA wound your ego? Gotta act like a big man?[/color]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1283671608' post='2442410']
I would support perma-zi for Fernando at this point. I kinda hope GOONS pay him for this imformation by raiding him back to ZI.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I do not know what he did to GOONS, but as annoyed as I am with Fernando, he's only being tech raided by some annoyed members of ours. PZI as far as I'm concerned in not an option.[/color]

Edited September 5, 2010 by Rebel Virginia