Oh well, It is what it is...no real proof though

[Mandolus]

[quote name='the lizard queen' timestamp='1283970396' post='2446717']
We'll only war him till some alliance decides to accept this fine gentleman among their ranks. Who will be Fernando's hero?
[/quote]

My scenario is more likely.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283740575' post='2443265']
Pretty empty.
[/quote]
Is/was there the chance the money might have been destroyed or looted prior to its use for maximum amount of damage $3 million can do? Otherwise if he hasn't dropped that low, is it possible the $3 million has yet to have any sort of effect on combat and whether it will have any is debatable yet? The reason I ask these questions is you all seem to be asking for money based upon the damage received in combat but I've not seen any actual connection being made to the $3 million in question which is rather important if you're seeking full reps.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Hyperbad

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1283972411' post='2446739']
wasn't this Fernando guy ZIed by \m/ and accepted by NSO with open arms?? Oh my, I guess there is a reason for the do-not-accept-rogues rule after all.

Edit. Grammar
[/quote]

Yeah, NSO likes to accept people right after making awful moves. It's a miracle they've survived this long with an official alliance policy of accepting people regardless of how goddamn stupid they are.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283975451' post='2446811']
Is/was there the chance the money might have been destroyed or looted prior to its use for maximum amount of damage $3 million can do? Otherwise if he hasn't dropped that low, is it possible the $3 million has yet to have any sort of effect on combat and whether it will have any is debatable yet? The reason I ask these questions is you all seem to be asking for money based upon the damage received in combat but I've not seen any actual connection being made to the $3 million in question which is rather important if you're seeking full reps.
[/quote]
Doesn't matter, making a case for what exactly that $3m was spent on is nearly impossible. We looked at some war reports, figured it could've easily hit 90m at x3 or x5 (although Corinan commented he'd take x10 heh), remembered we got that last time and went for it. Regardless of if you think the damages were that high or that's what the money was spent on (could've just as easily been spent on paying bills), it's what Corinan agreed to so there's no point in discussing it.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283979555' post='2446898']
Doesn't matter, making a case for what exactly that $3m was spent on is nearly impossible.[/quote]
To know exactly what was spent on, yes, however you could narrow it down and make educated guesses as to how far that money would have went to war based upon gather intelligence on Methrage earlier (then later) and looking at war reports. You could narrow it down quite well.

[quote]We looked at some war reports, figured it could've easily hit 90m at x3 or x5 (although Corinan commented he'd take x10 heh), remembered we got that last time and went for it.[/quote]
By that line of thought, since you've provided no underlying basis for it to be judged by, if I send $3 million to someone with a $5 billion warchest and they do damage which could easily hit ten times that, you'd seek all of those damages he did despite the aid packet effectively having done nothing to change the amount of damage you'd receive. Basically, you'd be asking me to pay for something I had literally no influence on. Now, in the case of Methrage it is possible the aid had an influence on how much damage he did but then if that's the case it's also possible for your alliance to have minimized said damage by a magnitude thereby making such calculations inaccurate.

[quote]Regardless of if you think the damages were that high or that's what the money was spent on (could've just as easily been spent on paying bills), it's what Corinan agreed to so there's no point in discussing it.[/quote]
I'm not seeking to change what they agreed to. I'm challenging your methodology and the conclusions made.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1283955763' post='2446570']
"I humiliated Doppelganger, what have you done?"

Really? I don't feel humiliated. I think you're giving yourself too much credit here. Your actions were far less important than you think.

I do like the attention you're showing me though.
[/quote]
Doppelganger I know you will come in here and say you were asked to take on a rogue in the 12k ns range but you know its a bunch of bull and you sold your infra cuz you knew the chances in that range of being spied were much lower, so you sold the infra. You sold the infra cuz the hounds picked up the scent and were closing in as time passed shortly after this story broke and became news.

What did I do? I, by making this topic, in effect hit you with the biggest nuke ever. A 7k infra destroying mega-nuke. Turns out, you could have kept all your infra, took the spy op at the 46k-ish level, got caught, paid the $90mil and been done with this.

You ate my 7k infra destroying mega-nuke, hope it tastes yummy.

[quote name='the lizard queen' timestamp='1283970396' post='2446717']
We'll only war him till some alliance decides to accept this fine gentleman among their ranks. Who will be Fernando's hero?
[/quote]
I have a few small alliances that despite my pointing them to this topic still are persistent in wanting me to join. I told them to talk to their protectors to get "clearance" but have stated that they are sovereign in regards to making the decision to accept me. Believe, me I've tried to talk them out of recruiting me but I guess my nation's potential NS contribution once it achieves peace and time to grow is what has them still pursuing me. I really don't know what I will do but I am leaning towards a "reformation".

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1283977028' post='2446835']
Yeah, NSO likes to accept people right after making awful moves. It's a miracle they've survived this long with an official alliance policy of accepting people regardless of how goddamn stupid they are.
[/quote]
What you all fail to understand is that I am not stupid at all. Talk with my past alliance mates in FAR and allies. They will tell you that up until I left I was a very good leader and very level headed and will say many great things about "that" Fernando12.

I left FAR, not because I didn't like them or any internal issues at all. But because the opportunity presented itself to leave. This peace planet bob has had for months now has been extremely boring and I was extremely bored. I decided I wanted to do a complete 180 degree turn from what I was just to have some fun and cause some trouble. I was not an influential leader or in any major super secret talks or relevant, so I had nothing to lose personally. (I know I lost some friends). What I mean by nothing to lose is that I am was no where near being a "player" on the world stage so I could go on this wild streak and not look back. Some of you probably wish you could do crazy things and stir up trouble but you won't because you are actually much closer to being "players" and just waiting your turn. Others, want to be and are patient enough to move up the proverbial ladder even if it takes 2-3 years for you to become one of the elite "players". "Players" as in the puppet masters that control planet bob, ie. Archon, Hoo, Penguin, Cortath, Xyphosis, etc...

So you see, I'm not stupid. All I did was take a break from being serious because I know that this planet allows for "reformations".

Edited September 8, 2010 by Fernando12

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283985125' post='2446996']
Doppelganger I know you will come in here and say you were asked to take on a rogue in the 12k ns range but you know its a bunch of bull and you sold your infra cuz you knew the chances in that range of being spied were much lower, so you sold the infra. You sold the infra cuz the hounds picked up the scent and were closing in as time passed shortly after this story broke and became news.
[/quote]

NOTE: I'm not dissecting this piece to argue with you, just to inform.

If I recall correctly, Dopp admitted to this in another topic (or even earlier in this one?), so what you're saying is well known already.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283984276' post='2446980']
By that line of thought, since you've provided no underlying basis for it to be judged by, if I send $3 million to someone with a $5 billion warchest and they do damage which could easily hit ten times that, you'd seek all of those damages he did despite the aid packet effectively having done nothing to change the amount of damage you'd receive. Basically, you'd be asking me to pay for something I had literally no influence on. Now, in the case of Methrage it is possible the aid had an influence on how much damage he did but then if that's the case it's also possible for your alliance to have minimized said damage by a magnitude thereby making such calculations inaccurate.
[/quote]
That's a ridiculous claim. $3m to someone with billions is hardly going to contribute much to their current situation. Although we might still ask for a bunch of money if you [i]blatantly aided a nuclear rogue after we posted a thread saying not to[/i]. This doesn't set a precedent for $3m = $90m in all situations all the time forever and always.

Methrage is a 5k NS nuclear rogue. He has no warchest and he has no back-up plan. The $3m drastically increased his options and ability to retaliate given his current situation, very much unlike giving $3m to someone with billions. It's pretty safe to assume that the $3m was spent on nukes, considering he didn't have nukes before, and afterward he did. Although you can't really prove the $3m went right into funding nukes, you also can't prove it didn't. Which is my point; there's no real way to ask for damages in this situation anyway. Even if you don't think it was 90m, you have no way of telling us how much it actually was, so there's no point in discussing damages.

We picked a figure we thought made sense for the situation. We asked for $90m and that's what we got. It was discussed and agreed upon. Whether or not that $3m funded nukes or how much damage it actually did, Corinan thought the $90m deal was worth taking.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1283985527' post='2447006']
NOTE: I'm not dissecting this piece to argue with you, just to inform.

If I recall correctly, Dopp admitted to this in another topic (or even earlier in this one?), so what you're saying is well known already.
[/quote]
Dopp referenced that he had a FAC as did Methrage which brought on the suspicion.

What I did since I was an NSO member and in their private channel when this was said is bring more suspicion or focus or whatever you want to call it to Dopp. I told everyone by postint the logs of when that aid was sent and Dopp said he would do it that night. I pointed out how to confirm the existence of Dopp having an invisible slot in use by filling his slots, though this is something that others may have immediately also thought to do to confirm since I know I'm not the only one savvy with the mechanics of how things work.

I simply gave this aid slot the focus it needed for GOONS to be able to go more all out after Dopp and NSO. Maybe not all the credit goes to me but certainly some does.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283986002' post='2447021']
Dopp referenced that he had a FAC as did Methrage which brought on the suspicion.

What I did since I was an NSO member and in their private channel when this was said is bring more suspicion or focus or whatever you want to call it to Dopp. I told everyone by postint the logs of when that aid was sent and Dopp said he would do it that night. I pointed out how to confirm the existence of Dopp having an invisible slot in use by filling his slots, though this is something that others may have immediately also thought to do to confirm since I know I'm not the only one savvy with the mechanics of how things work.

[b]I simply gave this aid slot the focus it needed for GOONS to be able to go more all out after Dopp and NSO. Maybe not all the credit goes to me but certainly some does.[/b]
[/quote]
Nope.

I'm afraid not, Fernando. You can't really take credit for something you ultimately had little effect on in the first place. Its just not how the the nature of responsibility works.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Chron

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283986586' post='2447033']
Nope.

I'm afraid not, Fernando. You can't really take credit for something you ultimately had little effect on in the first place. Its just not how the the nature of responsibility works.
[/quote]
I am taking some, but go ahead and be butthurt that I get some credit for what happened to Dopp and NSO.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283985710' post='2447015']
That's a ridiculous claim. $3m to someone with billions is hardly going to contribute much to their current situation.[/quote]
I'm glad you see the point. It was previously stated that Methrage had a pretty empty war chest but no amount was given nor was anything commented on further prior to my posts to really assert this $3 million played any substantial role. Though pretty empty might be close to entirely empty the former gets tossed around quite a bit when ever someone lacks any kind of significant war chest for their size. If he had any of his own money left over and didn't dip into the $3 million then it's safe to say the aid did nothing and you're just seeing $90 million in profit from the deal as opposed to $x million for damages and $x million in profit.

[quote]Although we might still ask for a bunch of money if you [i]blatantly aided a nuclear rogue after we posted a thread saying not to[/i]. This doesn't set a precedent for $3m = $90m in all situations all the time forever and always.[/quote]
There was no assertion made of it setting a precedent.

[quote]Methrage is a 5k NS nuclear rogue. He has no warchest and he has no back-up plan. The $3m drastically increased his options and ability to retaliate given his current situation, very much unlike giving $3m to someone with billions. It's pretty safe to assume that the $3m was spent on nukes, considering he didn't have nukes before, and afterward he did. Although you can't really prove the $3m went right into funding nukes, you also can't prove it didn't. Which is my point; there's no real way to ask for damages in this situation anyway. Even if you don't think it was 90m, you have no way of telling us how much it actually was, so there's no point in discussing damages.[/quote]
It is possible, even probable that some of the money did go to funding nuclear weapons if he had no warchest. What I have a difficult time believing though is in the event that he was down to the $3 million then it all was spent on nuclear weapons and actually succeeded in hitting you with all of them or is your alliance so typically inept as to allow an alleged nuclear rogues to keep their minuscule war chests so more may be lobbed at you?

[quote]We picked a figure we thought made sense for the situation. We asked for $90m and that's what we got. It was discussed and agreed upon. Whether or not that $3m funded nukes or how much damage it actually did, Corinan thought the $90m deal was worth taking.
[/quote]
You picked the figure based upon the maximum amount of damage possibly dealt to your alliance as opposed to its actual impact, correct?

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283986877' post='2447041']
It is possible, even probable that some of the money did go to funding nuclear weapons if he had no warchest. What I have a difficult time believing though is in the event that he was down to the $3 million then it all was spent on nuclear weapons and actually succeeded in hitting you with all of them or is your alliance so typically inept as to allow an alleged nuclear rogues to keep their minuscule war chests so more may be lobbed at you?
[/quote]

Actually it's been quite hilarious watching him buy a nuke every single chance he had just to hit the lowbies again with one.

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#FF0000"]Is NSO the new Legion?[/color]

[Udelar Johnson]

*edit* Wrong thread.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Udelar Johnson

[Jakome]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283986877' post='2447041']
Words
[/quote]
What are you trying to figure out some negotiating tips so you're leader can try get get higher reps without crying on the owf?

[Corinan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283986783' post='2447038']
I am taking some, but go ahead and be butthurt that I get some credit for what happened to Dopp and NSO.
[/quote]

I have over a billion in my warchest, it won't take much to rebuild what I sold. Besides, I kinda like being low NS with all my wonders. That said it's flattering how important you've deemed me. You talk like you brought down some mafia kingpin. I'll say again, your actions were really not as important as you think. The only person you really screwed in all this is yourself. The New Sith Order and Doppelganger will march on. You? You're dead. Good job, sport.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1283990215' post='2447106']
That said it's flattering how important you've deemed me. You talk like you brought down some mafia kingpin. I'll say again, your actions were really not as important as you think.
[/quote]
Your word since you lied throughout the first part of this thread and to your own alliance government is now proven as worthless.

If I had not helped bring this to light, NSO would only have had Heft's blunder on record. Now thanks to you there is 2 proven blatant of acts of war against other alliances. Good luck next time you guys do something similarly dumb. And you all will since you guys like to think "challenging conventional standards" means pulling stunts to get you rolled or bad PR on a monthly basis.

The NSO AA is there and it can last a long time, but that doesn't mean anything. GGA lasted in complete irrelevance. Your on the same track.

Fernando12 is dead! Long live Fernando12! So what, I'm history but NSO will be there to join me soon.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Fernando12

[Charles Stuart]

[quote]If I had not helped bring this to light, NSO would only have had Heft's blunder on record. Now thanks to you there is 2 proven acts of acts of war against other alliances. Good luck next time you guys do something similarly dumb. And you all will since you guys like to think "challenging conventional standards" means pulling stunts to get you rolled or bad PR on a monthly basis.[/quote]

Our saviour is too kind..

[Bob Janova]

[quote]It is possible, even probable that some of the money did go to funding nuclear weapons if he had no warchest. What I have a difficult time believing though is in the event that he was down to the $3 million then it all was spent on nuclear weapons and actually succeeded in hitting you with all of them or is your alliance so typically inept as to allow an alleged nuclear rogues to keep their minuscule war chests so more may be lobbed at you?[/quote]
At that size the GOONS don't have SDIs, so yes, every nuke hits. Methrage was almost out of cash even before he went rogue this latest time (he told us in VE that during the round of war we had against him), so the aid (it was probably $4.5m since both of them have FACs) would have permitted him to avoid bill lock for a few more days, rebuild to 1000 infra and buy several nukes. I put some maths in the thread on AA showing how $3m could be responsible for $30m-ish of damages, and that will be significantly higher for $4.5m. On the other hand, the 100 tech that Schatt airs in the OP would be responsible for maybe 10 points of infra and land ($500k? at most) in a round of war.

[AnCapistan]

Fernando you were only in NSO because they decided to challenge conventional standards. You should have respected what they did for you and leave quietly. Airing private logs and dirty laundry on the way out is borderline betrayal.

Also are you really accusing people of doing stupid stuff that can get alliances rolled? Perhaps you forget what you did a month or two ago.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1283994250' post='2447180']
words that show you didn't read the thread....
[/quote]

Damsky, I have to quote myself since you don't like to read. Read below:


[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283985125' post='2446996']

I left FAR, not because I didn't like them or any internal issues at all. But because the opportunity presented itself to leave. This peace planet bob has had for months now has been extremely boring and I was extremely bored. I decided I wanted to do a complete 180 degree turn from what I was just to have some fun and cause some trouble. I was not an influential leader or in any major super secret talks or relevant, so I had nothing to lose personally. (I know I lost some friends). What I mean by nothing to lose is that I am was no where near being a "player" on the world stage so I could go on this wild streak and not look back. Some of you probably wish you could do crazy things and stir up trouble but you won't because you are actually much closer to being "players" and just waiting your turn. Others, want to be and are patient enough to move up the proverbial ladder even if it takes 2-3 years for you to become one of the elite "players". "Players" as in the puppet masters that control planet bob, ie. Archon, Hoo, Penguin, Cortath, Xyphosis, etc...

So you see, I'm not stupid. All I did was take a break from being serious because I know that this planet allows for "reformations".
[/quote]

[Corinan]

And uh Fernando, I was already being spied on before you created this thread, so obviously they were on to me first. You did [i]nothing[/i]. Nothing but utterly ruin the already poor reputation you already had. Oh and OMG I lied about spying in the beginning of this thread! Imagine the thought of a Sith fibbing!

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283994708' post='2447187']
Damsky, I have to quote myself since you don't like to read. Read below:
[/quote]

That still doesn't change the fact (in fact it really has nothing to do with anything) that you're a complete hypocrite and put FAR in a bad situation and put them at risk of being rolled.

Basically you're a traitor who almost got NSO rolled.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1283995354' post='2447203']
That still doesn't change the fact (in fact it really has nothing to do with anything) that you're a complete hypocrite and put FAR in a bad situation and put them at risk of being rolled.
[/quote]

You do realize, I hope, that even entertaining a discussion on this subject, much less anything else related to Fernando or his shenanigans, is simply feeding into his screaming need to be recognized, made relevant and entertained. I'm going to go ahead and preempt his response with the assumption that it will be full of self-justification, inflammatory allegations, some thinly-veiled insults to your intelligence and a variety of other non-sense which will be designed to provoke a counter-response from yourself and keep this disaster of a discussion rolling forward. Perhaps it's best to settled with the standard LolFernando line, agree that whatever happens he'll join the ranks of 'verse pariahs the likes of DRBD, Comrade Vader and other charming souls and simply leave him to rot his way into irrelevant silence.