Jump to content

Objective of the War on NSO?


shahenshah

Recommended Posts

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1281814381' post='2415917']
That's not really a fair thing to say. RoK was going to declare at the "normal time", but then NSO started going into peace mode so it had to be moved up a few hours.
[/quote]

I wasn't aware what else was needed to be said after Hoo said "aid the guy we're fighting and it's war" and NSO went ahead and did it anyway either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 173
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

If there are reps, they should be incredibly small. $6M makes sense.

When a much larger group attacks a much smaller group, I don't think it's at all fair to declare war, beat them down, and then demand reps.

This whole thing could have easily been solved by diplomacy. Ragnarok obviously didn't want that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^Maybe it's time to read up on the reasons of the war before claiming it could be solved via diplomacy.

Of course it's fair to demand reps. The aggressor loses soldiers too, but since he's in the position to make demands he can demand reps for them, and then the aggressor and the defender will be even. Whether they want to seem merciful is their choice, but it has nothing to do with fairness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281789220' post='2415621']
Oh really, How do you know this? Do you have any factual evidence to back this claim up?
[/quote]
Proof? , Instead of waiting an hour or two to speak to someone above Heft or just providing proof that Sedrick was a rogue so he can be removed. RoK gathers up a lynch mob and doesn't even wait until update to attack. (Supposedly due to NSO flying into peace mode). Given the fact that mediators from other alliances didn't have much luck getting through to them either I don't blame them for going into hippy mode. Looks more like they were in a rush to attack before anyone besides Heft or RV could approach them with a diplomatic solution.

Then you look at the members from the attacking alliances trying to goad NSO's allies on OWF, mainly (NPO) into the fight. Mr. Damsky's " Pacifica, come out and playyy" is a good example.

Lastly you add in the extreme butthurt coming from RoK and Co because NSO told it's allies to stay out of the fight and preventing this from escalating further.

We know what the objective of this curbstomp was and because of NSO's courage and selflessness, RoK and co failed in that objective. Now all they can do is take their frustration on on NSO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1281814381' post='2415917']
That's not really a fair thing to say. RoK was going to declare at the "normal time", but then NSO started going into peace mode so it had to be moved up a few hours.
[/quote]

So the fair thing to say would be that the priority was to deliver maximum beating rather than diplomatic resolution which would be far more beneficial and less costly for the alleged victims i.e. TENE?

Edited by shahenshah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1281815175' post='2415929']
I wasn't aware what else was needed to be said after Hoo said "aid the guy we're fighting and it's war" and NSO went ahead and did it anyway either.
[/quote]

I guess it depends on what side of the treaty web you are on. Normally that would be as crystal clear a CB as you can get, again, the Sith had control of the situation up until the point they chose to aid. Had they not done that there wouldnt be a war, yes its that simple. This is a good op for people to get thier PR in though I dont begrudge them that but it really isnt as complex as it might seem, it was, from our point of view very black and white and we empowered the Sith to have control over the situation.

The prudent question might be, why would the Sith aid the rogue when they knew it would be considered an act of war? Perhaps this was part of Chron's plan all along? I mean, we all know he is amongst the most intelligent people we have, he says so in his logs with Zog. I for one am appalled at the Sith and thier attempt to start a war to pull in thier allies. Ready, set, go! B-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='BlkAK47002' timestamp='1281854794' post='2416478']
We know what the objective of this curbstomp was and because of NSO's courage and selflessness, RoK and co failed in that objective. Now all they can do is take their frustration on on NSO.
[/quote]
I hope you'll at least send them some sort of "Meatshield of the Month" award for their sacrifice.

Even though they willingly walked into the "trap" set for them (and apparently you). But loyalty is more important than brains for a good vassal.

Edited by Arcturus Jefferson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281883408' post='2416660']
So the fair thing to say would be that the priority was to deliver maximum beating rather than diplomatic resolution which would be far more beneficial and less costly for the alleged victims i.e. TENE?[/quote]
People who obsess about the financial/pixel cost of war clearly haven't grasped the full benefits of war. Luckily, there are several alliances in CN that are designed specifically for those people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1281890348' post='2416728']
I hope you'll at least send them some sort of "Meatshield of the Month" award for their sacrifice.

Even though they willingly walked into the "trap" set for them (and apparently you). But loyalty is more important than brains for a good vassal.
[/quote]
Yes, Apparently the fact that they saw the bigger picture and knew that if their allies retaliated they would get rolled and wouldn't be able to help NSO rebuild afterwards didn't require a higher thought process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='BlkAK47002' timestamp='1281941677' post='2417681']
Yes, Apparently the fact that they saw the bigger picture and knew that if their allies retaliated they would get rolled and wouldn't be able to help NSO rebuild afterwards didn't require a higher thought process.
[/quote]

Walking right into that [i]fiendish[/i] "trap" sure didn't require any higher thought processes.

Edited by Aurion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281890417' post='2416730']
People who obsess about the financial/pixel cost of war clearly haven't grasped the full benefits of war. Luckily, there are several alliances in CN that are designed specifically for those people.
[/quote]

Tautology, Please enlighten us with the full benefits of this war :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1282010142' post='2418530']
Tautology, Please enlighten us with the full benefits of this war :)[/quote]
How can I refuse when you ask so nicely. :)

I enjoy war personally - the coordenation, the uncertainty, the camaraderie - but I expect you're most interested in the more global benefits. I'll try to organize my ideas a bit.

1. Activity. War not only raises the activity level of the alliances involved but also those that might be pulled in if it escalated. Suddenly, life is more than just collecting taxes and building your war-chest. People check the forums (OWF and alliance) more frequently. Stat-freaks have new numbers to collect and chart. Artists can produce propaganda. Theorists can propose. Trouble-makers can stir.

2. Spectacle. Whichever side you're on, or even if you're truly independent, you have a great opportunity to tell people what you think. Occasionally, people even listen to what you say! The OWF is a perfect place to make a name for yourself as an Important CN Personality or to make a complete fool of yourself. For some, people and things that didn't really matter to them a few days ago suddenly become vitally important. It makes for a great show.

3. Intrigue. Nobody knows exactly what's going on. You can dig, you can speculate, you can attempt to extrapolate. You find yourself in IRC query with people you haven't spoken with in 6 months. Uncertainty breeds paranoia, and paranoia produces some of the most entertaining conspiracy theories: "To hell with Occam's razor, I don't like the outcome. I want a truth that makes me happy."

4. Realignment. Alliances make and break bonds all the time but it's more intense in war-time. An alliance you thought was your friend breaks your heart. Another that you weren't so sure about knocks on your door with a big bunch of flowers. Turmoil is passionate. Friends (and enemies) made in war-time are more likely to stay that way for longer.

You'll see that I've talked about war in general and not specifically about the war with NSO. The reason for this is very simple: the war with NSO is fundamentally no different than any other war. On the minus side, you lose some pixels and a few people lose face. That's a very small price to pay for the benefits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[color="#0000FF"]I'm sorry Tautology, but you're not going to get any of those from a beat down, as the last war showed (yes it was much larger, but it was still a beat down). It takes a different kind of war for any of those to happen. You need to go against someone who hasn't been defeated for the last six months.[/color]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281431035' post='2409393']
What if there is peace tomorrow? What if the terms are
- Rogue responsible for 6m,
- NSO responsible for 6m Heft sent
- The apology that everyone takes very seriously.

Would you still feel that there was something more to this then the rogue and TENE? I wouldnt.
[/quote]
That's a huge "what-if" that, due to Hoo's warmongering mentality, is quite an impossibility. Even if those were to be the actual terms (which they won't be), the attack on one alliance by RoK and Co would still reveal that there is more to this war than rogues and bad aid.

And to Tautology's explanation, I have to say that it's a fairly good summary of the positive war-time benefits. Although I'm a pacifist and diplomat, I do enjoy the activity and unity that war provides (when I'm not directly involved in the combat, of course). It helps to rejuvenate the population, and bring forward new persons that may have something to say.

Alas, it also breeds paranoia, distrust, and silent/blind obedience, the last of which is the worst. People lose their ability to tell right from wrong, fair from unfair, and smart from dumb. War blurs the lines as well as it blurs the mind. Most will simply become a pawn, and will stupidly argue for whichever side they are told they are on. Don't believe me? Look at all the mindless chatter within the DoW threads, with people telling others how they are right and you are wrong; how they are the righteous and you are the malevolent scum. People tend to stop individual thought, and rely on a collective, submissive voice that is no more than a tool of propaganda.

Do I have the right to tell you what is right and what is wrong? Absolutely not. However, neither should anyone else. You are all individuals ("Yes, we are all individuals!"), and should not have to succumb to the droning of government officials who arbitrarily decide what they think is right or wrong, not necessarily the absolute truth. It's easy to just be one of the masses; it takes intelligence, skill, drive, and passion in order to become your own person.

I'm done with my anti-mass preaching. I'm just fed up with people blindly believing every word they are told by their respective governments, without even bothering to uncover and confirm the truth. That is what bugs me about these wars, and this one in particular. Nothing but blind sheep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Adam Suttler' timestamp='1282064580' post='2419825']
blind sheep.
[/quote]

I was going to reply and say "congrats on managing to call everyone mindless followers without calling them sheep"... but then you ruined that completely.

Anyways, this is CN. There is no right and wrong, no black and white. Its more like you've got red and blue, and each side is claiming they're actually white while the other is actually black.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281429338' post='2409360']

There are two important questions IMO:

1. How will it end?
2. When will it end? [/quote]

I think the only terms will be admission of defeat and an apology for the misconduct that sparked the war. I think NSO would rather accept harsh terms than those two. As for period, unless they pull a FAN, it will most likely end within the next fourteen days.

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1281430014' post='2409372']
You do know that Viceroys are no longer able to be used by [u]anyone [/u]due to the terms of service, yes?
[/quote]
Viceroys aren't disallowed by Admin Almighty. His Commandments (ToS) simply state that an alliance cannot take over root admin of a foreign alliance forums. Technically it's still allowed to install a person as viceroy. He just won't possess the same power as those NPO installed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282057919' post='2419630']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm sorry Tautology, but you're not going to get any of those from a beat down, as the last war showed (yes it was much larger, but it was still a beat down). It takes a different kind of war for any of those to happen. You need to go against someone who hasn't been defeated for the last six months.[/color][/quote]
I don't think so. A bigger conflict would get a stronger response, and maybe a more balanced war would get slightly better ratings, but even a relatively minor thing still pulls in the crowds when there's nothing else on TV. There's a core of jaded players who don't recognize the value of war unless it's bigger/better/brighter/brutaler(!) than anything that's gone before it but, although vociferous, they are far from typical and, even among them, there are people who will grasp every war as if it were their last. A prize if you can guess who I was thinking of when I wrote that last phrase. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1282079919' post='2420285']
Anyways, this is CN. There is no right and wrong, no black and white. Its more like you've got red and blue, and each side is claiming they're actually white while the other is actually black.
[/quote]
Perhaps you are right, and this mentality is set in stone. However, it would be a step in the right direction to at least try to stop this mentality before it gets out of hand.

[OOC]This blind sheep mentality has already gone haywire within the confines of the real world, especially in America, where many rights and freedoms are often confused with having the right to forceful fanaticism and blind stabs at what one thinks is the absolute truth, as opposed to knowing the absolute truth. Especially when it comes to religion.[/OOC]

The RoK and Co curbstomp of NSO came as a surprise to most, and an awaited act of revenge for others. Was it warranted? Perhaps; perhaps not. I cannot label NSO with anything good or bad, as I don't know them all that well. My respect for RoK is also at a neutral state, as I've only dealt with them in getting a protectorate agreement for another alliance. Taking into account what RoK and Co. claims to be their CB, it seems to be overkill to attack the whole of NSO simply because of a rogue. Sure, mistakes were made, but they could've been cleared up with a couple rep payments. Instead, the majority of NSO gets stomped because a rogue was aided against RoK's, and ultimately TENE's, wishes. From the perspective of a neutral party, this is a little much. Therefore, one can only speculate that RoK, or some third party, had to have other motives to move towards full-scale war. But everyone already knows this.

The only thing that people don't know is what those motives are. This is the pinnacle of arguments here, that RoK, or anyone else on that side for that matter, are withholding their motives from the public. Why are they doing so? No one except the scheming high officials of SF know. Perhaps it involves the private sale of Hoo's favorite strap-on, and NSO, finding out about this, threatened to reveal this to the world. Maybe it was something so stupid or so embarrassing that it couldn't be posted without violating the ToS. I have no idea why they don't post their reason in their DoW or in another announcement. Until they own up to their own scheme, I can only assume that something along the lines of my first speculation is valid. And everyone is obviously entitled to make up their own theory. However, relating this to my "sheep" rant, the general public seems to go ahead and pick sides based on inconclusive evidence. Personally, I cannot fathom formulating an opinion on a given topic unless I know every single fact that made it so. Once we get to the point where we can't dig up any more evidence, that's when a picture can start to form. In these recent events, it seems that people don't care if the truth were handed to them on a silver platter; they'll keep inventing lies and deceit to fit their means, effectively clouding and distorting the sound judgment of others, preventing them from making a just decision in their opinions or actions. This is the crux of my elaborations. But I am finished.

How will this war end? At the rate that everything is going, NSO may or may not concede defeat in the near future. It's evident that they won't last too long without any outside help, but in refusing outside help, they are preventing further injustices upon other alliances. A surrender or armistice will most likely be announced in the near future, with NSO either having to pay the initial costs that were accrued from gaining Sedrick, or having to pay outrageous reparations to all of SF. However, NSO will continue to endure as an alliance, as I highly doubt that such an injustice would dishearten them to disband. On the contrary, it would promote a unity and greater brotherhood within the alliance, in the face of injustice. Additionally, some global rogue protocols would be set in order to prevent future situations.

When? Within the month. [OOC]People are soon to go off to school and work, myself included.[/OOC] Unless SF are going to be dicks, and keep this war lasting several months. However, judging from the rate at which NSO's NS is dropping, they will not keep fighting for too long before surrendering. It's very difficult to say, since the fighting's been going on for only a week.

Edit: If I've missed something in my rants, it's because I wasn't fully informed of a certain number of details. Please enlighten and correct me on anything that I may have mistaken, so that everyone can benefit from a civil discussion.

Edited by Adam Suttler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1282046800' post='2419471']
How can I refuse when you ask so nicely. :)

I enjoy war personally - the coordenation, the uncertainty, the camaraderie - but I expect you're most interested in the more global benefits. I'll try to organize my ideas a bit.

1. Activity. War not only raises the activity level of the alliances involved but also those that might be pulled in if it escalated. Suddenly, life is more than just collecting taxes and building your war-chest. People check the forums (OWF and alliance) more frequently. Stat-freaks have new numbers to collect and chart. Artists can produce propaganda. Theorists can propose. Trouble-makers can stir.

2. Spectacle. Whichever side you're on, or even if you're truly independent, you have a great opportunity to tell people what you think. Occasionally, people even listen to what you say! The OWF is a perfect place to make a name for yourself as an Important CN Personality or to make a complete fool of yourself. For some, people and things that didn't really matter to them a few days ago suddenly become vitally important. It makes for a great show.

3. Intrigue. Nobody knows exactly what's going on. You can dig, you can speculate, you can attempt to extrapolate. You find yourself in IRC query with people you haven't spoken with in 6 months. Uncertainty breeds paranoia, and paranoia produces some of the most entertaining conspiracy theories: "To hell with Occam's razor, I don't like the outcome. I want a truth that makes me happy."

4. Realignment. Alliances make and break bonds all the time but it's more intense in war-time. An alliance you thought was your friend breaks your heart. Another that you weren't so sure about knocks on your door with a big bunch of flowers. Turmoil is passionate. Friends (and enemies) made in war-time are more likely to stay that way for longer.

You'll see that I've talked about war in general and not specifically about the war with NSO. The reason for this is very simple: the war with NSO is fundamentally no different than any other war. On the minus side, you lose some pixels and a few people lose face. That's a very small price to pay for the benefits.
[/quote]

The only thing is this has nothing to do with CB. If you're going beyond that for reasons above, thats your choice.



[quote name='Melchior' timestamp='1282083953' post='2420434']
I think the only terms will be admission of defeat and an apology for the misconduct that sparked the war. I think NSO would rather accept harsh terms than those two. As for period, unless they pull a FAN, it will most likely end within the next fourteen days.
[/quote]

NSO has already said 'my bad' to TENE and admitted there was a mistake on their part, They have apologized in there own manner, holding a gun and extracting an apology is worth nothing, you and I both know this, its just an attempt to humiliate. Anyway, they've given the apology and admitted a mistake, YET the war continues. This thing going over a week is excessive, [b]NSO has lost more than 50% of its strength[/b], do you still not feel that this is punishment enough? They've been willing to talk since day 1 and onwards.

They have:
1. Lost over 50% of strength.
2. Admitted there was a mistake
3. Already said Sorry to TENE.

See its your loss in the end, the longer it goes, the more it takes the image of 'Ebil Hegemony stomping the weak'. Technically you might have had a slightest of CB, but technically NPO had a CB on FAN too. Dont make this into something you claim it is not, because thats what it will become whether you want it to be or not the longer this goes on. Dont make the same mistakes the elements in the last Hegemony did.

Edited by shahenshah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote]Therefore, one can only speculate that RoK, or some third party, had to have other motives to move towards full-scale war[/quote]
I don't think that needs to be anything beyond the longstanding hostility between NSO and SF (seriously, check any announcement thread by a SF alliance for the last few months), and the fact that NSO did the one thing which seemed explicitly designed to piss RoK off. 'War with NSO' is something that people will jump at much faster than 'War with [Alliance X]' for almost all values of X (if NPO had been so dumb I guess people would have wanted to roll them again too). Look at how people are cheering STA on in their feud with \m/ ... there's another alliance that has got themselves disliked enough that a CB like this would likely see them attacked outright.

The question is really when NSO will admit defeat and sign terms that accept such, I think. The result of this war is not in doubt and I don't believe the attackers are minded to force overly harsh terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1282149378' post='2421681']
The only thing is this has nothing to do with CB. If you're going beyond that for reasons above, thats your choice.[/quote]
Your request was: "Tautology, Please enlighten us with the full benefits of this war :)"
I did just that.

Do you have another request regarding CB?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1282149708' post='2421687']
The question is really when NSO will admit defeat and sign terms that accept such, I think. The result of this war is not in doubt and I don't believe the attackers are minded to force overly harsh terms.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why people still seem to think the war is continuing still because of anything we are or aren't doing. I can assure you that that is not the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1282084020' post='2420439']
There's a core of jaded players who don't recognize the value of war unless it's bigger/better/brighter/brutaler(!) than anything that's gone before it but, although vociferous, they are far from typical and, even among them, there are people who will grasp every war as if it were their last. A prize if you can guess who I was thinking of when I wrote that last phrase. :)
[/quote]
Were you thinking of me when you wrote that sentence and what is the prize for guessing correctly? :P

As for why the war continues, my guess would be that those attacking NSO are still waiting to see if any of NSO's allies will get involved since they probably haven't taken much damage yet compared to NSO and want more war if possible.

Edited by Methrage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, I don't care how or when it ends. Folks have been lamenting about the lack of war since the end of the last one and as soon as this one is over, they'll be right back to wondering how long they will have to wait till the next blow-up happens.

IRL I have found excellent friends after having been on opposite sides of the fence, but I don't ever forsee RoK and NSO even becomming slightly friendly... too much bad blood before. I would have liked to meet NSO on an even footing and perhaps in the future, we will be able to do just that.

I don't see RoK taking reps, perhaps some to TENE, but even that doesn't sound right. I commend NSO for taking their lumps like men, but as to their allies not coming in, I say boo. This could have developed into another epic battle, but NSO shoo'd their friends away and it got boring quick.

As to the moniker of "warmonger", I must admit that many of us love war and it might be safe to say it's one reason to keep paying bills and collecting... the chance to burn something. Ragnarok is a warrior alliance and what place would she have if there were no opportunities to exercise that talent. I'm not sure if "warmonger" fits, but give us an excuse to roll, and many of us will be more than happy to oblige.

I will accept the title of "sheep", but add that I am a sheep with razor sharp claws and a penchant for nomming on anything that presents itself.

Valtamdraugr,
Hoo disciple
Ragnarok Grunt

edit: spelling error(likely, one of many)

Edited by Valtamdraugr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...