Ragnarok Declaration of War

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281718939' post='2414471']
Actually from what I can tell, the NSO was aware of Sedrick's wars with TENE and Sedrick informed them that it was a defensive action, which the evidence supports, and that he had offered peace, which has also been collaborated. Therefore, since it was a defensive action and it seemed to have a readily available solution he was admitted. After that RoK decided to declare on him without so much as a word. That is on RoK. The NSO can not be held responsible for RoK's carelessness in regards to diplomacy.

So now your "reason" is that RoK can declare upon any alliance's members and then bully them into not sending them aid with the threat of war in which the whole of the Cyberverse will come out with laurels and praise about how the horrible X alliance screwed up, even though no such events took place and no evidence to support the RoK claims exist?

EDIT: I am off to lunch, carry on.
[/quote]
Last post as well as its time for meetings.

We then find ourselves tracing back to what should actually be considered an aggressive action worthy of risking an escalated conflict. There is very little reason in having a full scale conflict over a nation who declared on 3 members of RoK's protectorate over a spy attack that, as previously mentioned, stood to cause (and likely caused) no monetary damage.

You can say that spy attacks are aggressive and leave it at that, fine. In saying that, you immediately lose any credibility on account of your inflexibility. This is a war over nothing, caused by your alliance's own **unique** stubbornness.

Edited August 13, 2010 by tamerlane

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281719612' post='2414482']
The problem is that they were instructions.

You shouldn't be able to give instructions to the leadership of another sovereign alliance. Alliance leadership has to be able to think for itself, and not simply obey instructions given by any other alliance that happens to be better-connected than they are.
[/quote]

They did think for themselves; they had options and they made their choices. Unless Heft's hand was mysteriously guided by Hoo to allow 6mil in aid to be sent.


Is Hoo telepathic?

Edited August 13, 2010 by tamerlane

[Keres]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281719612' post='2414482']
The problem is that they were instructions.

You shouldn't be able to give instructions to the leadership of another sovereign alliance. Alliance leadership has to be able to think for itself, and not simply obey instructions given by any other alliance that happens to be better-connected than they are.
[/quote]

This coming from THAT side of the web is pretty priceless...

RoK was at war with a rogue that attacked TENE, said rogue applies to NSO, Said Rogue is accepted into NSO, Hoo warns that aiding the rogue would be considered an act of war (they werent instructions really but a fair and honest warning from what I read), NSO sends aid to said rogue as a slap to the face of RoK (a soverign alliance) so that said Rogue can fight TENE and RoK... RoK does what it said it would do... this is the consquence of NSO acting like idiots... end of story...

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281719612' post='2414482']
The problem is that they were instructions.

You shouldn't be able to give instructions to the leadership of another sovereign alliance. Alliance leadership has to be able to think for itself, and not simply obey instructions given by any other alliance that happens to be better-connected than they are.
[/quote]

Coming from a member of Invicta this is hilarious.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281720068' post='2414489']
This coming from THAT side of the web is pretty priceless...

RoK was at war with a rogue that attacked TENE, said rogue applies to NSO, Said Rogue is accepted into NSO, Hoo warns that aiding the rogue would be considered an act of war (they werent instructions really but a fair and honest warning from what I read), [b]NSO sends aid to said rogue as a slap to the face of RoK (a soverign alliance) so that said Rogue can fight TENE and RoK... RoK does what it said it would do... this is the consquence of NSO acting like idiots... end of story...[/b]
[/quote]

I'd like to add "NSO considers the evidence and assumes the wars are defensive, RoK disagrees and says sedrick spied first, NSO says show proof or we will treat him like a member, RoK says they'll attack, NSO (not seeing any of the proof politely requested) does what any alliance would do for a member who has had apparently false allegations made against him, RoK attacks"

Fixed your timeline there.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281720068' post='2414489']
This coming from THAT side of the web is pretty priceless...
[/quote]
Hold on just a moment.

You can track me going back to 2007. I've been consistent on this point.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281720117' post='2414490']
Coming from a member of Invicta this is hilarious.
[/quote]
Exactly when have we ever given someone an ultimatum of "Deny this member or we'll roll your alliance"?

We have not ever rolled in this way.

[Keres]

[quote name='USOFAA' timestamp='1281719132' post='2414476']
Not going to happen MK would already be in this if it was not for STA, Jumping on NSO even more so at this point in time my bet is they would lose that allie
[/quote]

So what you're saying is that this could potentially be an attempt by NSO, to create more BS?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281712690' post='2414344']
It is relevant because this is what I was told by the Sith after Heft sent the aid. I keep seeing all these posts about how the NSO came and quickly apologized, stated they were wrong, and offered to pay reps ... this is not true. The "apology", if you can call it that, amounted to "Well, it isn't what I would have done, not without thinking about it first anyway. We'll talk it over, but we have a no reps policy."
[/quote]I don't recall you talking with the Sith after the aid was sent. I recall you making yourself scarce up until the DoW. So pray tell how the Sith could have told you anything?

Or perhaps I have my information wrong... Can you provide proof that you were in talks between when the aid was sent and when you declared war?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281720307' post='2414495']
Exactly when have we ever given someone an ultimatum of "Deny this member or we'll roll your alliance"?

We have not ever rolled in this way.
[/quote]

Except that's not what you said. You said alliance leaders have to think for themselves and not take orders from better alliances. Something Invicta hasn't done in a long time.

[Sir Dingly Dang]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281720429' post='2414498']
I don't recall you talking with the Sith after the aid was sent. I recall you making yourself scarce up until the DoW. So pray tell how the Sith could have told you anything?

Or perhaps I have my information wrong... Can you provide proof that you were in talks between when the aid was sent and when you declared war?
[/quote]

Doesn't the second log of the OP show communication after the aid was sent?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281720491' post='2414500']
Except that's not what you said. You said alliance leaders have to think for themselves and not take orders from better alliances. Something Invicta hasn't done in a long time.
[/quote]
If by "better" you mean "more well-connected"...

well that would make GGA one of the best alliances back in 2008. lol.

And I congratulate you on your in-depth knowledge of my alliance's affairs. You obviously have spent much more time studying it than I could possibly have.

[Keres]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281720429' post='2414498']
I don't recall you talking with the Sith after the aid was sent. I recall you making yourself scarce up until the DoW. So pray tell how the Sith could have told you anything?

Or perhaps I have my information wrong... Can you provide proof that you were in talks between when the aid was sent and when you declared war?
[/quote]

You should really stop digging when you hit 6 feet under, no real point in going further down...

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281721000' post='2414510']
You should really stop digging when you hit 6 feet under, no real point in going further down...
[/quote]Is that a threat? 'Cause, you know, you should really leave those things to the people in charge.

[quote]Doesn't the second log of the OP show communication after the aid was sent? [/quote]Well, I suppose it does, but it hardly counts as negotiation, and certainly not with a party other than Heft.

Edited August 13, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Keres]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281721100' post='2414512']
Is that a threat? 'Cause, you know, you should really leave those things to the people in charge.
[/quote]

no not really... just that over the course of this DoW discussion, you REALLY have been digging yourself a nice little hole... just thought that it maybe had a purpose and you intended to lie down in it for a while... could be wrong, in that case its just a pointless hole, which is just dumb anyway

Edited August 13, 2010 by Deathistan

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281720429' post='2414498']
I don't recall you talking with the Sith after the aid was sent. I recall you making yourself scarce up until the DoW. So pray tell how the Sith could have told you anything?

Or perhaps I have my information wrong... Can you provide proof that you were in talks between when the aid was sent and when you declared war?
[/quote]

Both sides are aware of the number of conversations that were held and the timing of said conversations. If the Sith dispute this, then they are free to contact me.

I'm not sure why anyone needs to provide proof to an uninvolved third party.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281721326' post='2414515']
no not really... just that over the course of this DoW discussion, you REALLY have been digging yourself a nice hole...
[/quote]Are you implying that I might get attacked over my words? I was under the impression that we had entered a 'new era' of 'free speech' where people don't get attacked for their words...

Well, then again, RoK withdrew a peace agreement because they didn't like what the Sith were saying, so I guess that's hardly true anymore...

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281721340' post='2414516']
I'm not sure why anyone needs to provide proof to an uninvolved third party.
[/quote]

Or to the involved second party.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281721490' post='2414522']Well, then again, RoK withdrew a peace agreement because they didn't like what the Sith were saying, so I guess that's hardly true anymore...
[/quote]


Inaccurate and already discussed in yet another thread.

[Keres]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281721490' post='2414522']
Are you implying that I might get attacked over my words? I was under the impression that we had entered a 'new era' of 'free speech' where people don't get attacked for their words...

Well, then again, RoK withdrew a peace agreement because they didn't like what the Sith were saying, so I guess that's hardly true anymore...
[/quote]

please stiop with the conspiracy theories again... You're just digging yourself deeper, all that BS is like quicksand

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281721340' post='2414516']
Both sides are aware of the number of conversations that were held and the timing of said conversations. If the Sith dispute this, then they are free to contact me.

I'm not sure why anyone needs to provide proof to an uninvolved third party.
[/quote]
Ah, the classic "Oh you're so insignificant that I don't need to provide any facts to you" argument. Brilliant. Then, you can just claim I got the facts wrong, since you're keeping them all to yourself, apparently. Bravo, well done.

I'll just continue to say that RoK is completely unjustified then. Lucky you, being a member of the by far largest gaggle of alliances in the world, that you don't have to justify your actions.

Except, suddenly, that involves me, because if you can haphazardly declare war without justifying your actions, it becomes a real threat to me and every other alliance not somehow tied into your group.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281721863' post='2414530']
Ah, the classic "Oh you're so insignificant that I don't need to provide any facts to you" argument. Brilliant. Then, you can just claim I got the facts wrong, since you're keeping them all to yourself, apparently. Bravo, well done.[/quote]

Or ... it is the "you are not involved in the situation and no matter what you demand and no matter how often you post, you still won't be" argument.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281721490' post='2414522']
Are you implying that I might get attacked over my words? I was under the impression that we had entered a 'new era' of 'free speech' where people don't get attacked for their words...
[/quote]
Yes, read into things, specially after being told that what you imply is not correct. But hey you have an agenda, so its all OK.

[Quote]
Well, then again, RoK withdrew a peace agreement because they didn't like what the Sith were saying, so I guess that's hardly true anymore...
[/quote]

Liar.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281722050' post='2414534']
Or ... it is the "you are not involved in the situation and no matter what you demand and no matter how often you post, you still won't be" argument.
[/quote]Seriously? This is the best you've got?

Well, I guess when you're wrong, you don't have much of a choice if you want to save as much PR as you can. Because if you were right I can't see why you wouldn't try to show that. Especially if you're saying I've gotten my facts wrong this whole time. That would seem to me like an easy way to shut me up and end the debate.

So why don't you stop hiding this proof that you negotiated between the aid being sent and when you declared war.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1281719638' post='2414484']
Last post as well as its time for meetings.

We then find ourselves tracing back to what should actually be considered an aggressive action worthy of risking an escalated conflict. There is very little reason in having a full scale conflict over a nation who declared on 3 members of RoK's protectorate over a spy attack that, as previously mentioned, stood to cause (and likely caused) no monetary damage.

You can say that spy attacks are aggressive and leave it at that, fine. In saying that, you immediately lose any credibility on account of your inflexibility. This is a war over nothing, caused by your alliance's own **unique** stubbornness.
[/quote]
This is hilarious. You keep spouting about the stubbornness of the NSO while defending the position of an alliance that went to war over $6mil in aid after NSO requested evidence from the aggressors (RoK) to substantiate their claims.

To date RoK has not provided one shread of evidence that indicates Sedrick was a rogue nation instead of what the facts support, which is that it is an aggrevied nation that was acting in self defense. Perhaps his response to the spying was too much. Perhaps he shouldn't have launched the attacks even though he had an established and proven CB. Perhaps he shouldn't have applied to NSO while doing so.

But, even with those "perhaps" it is very clear that RoK should not (not perhaps should not) have launched aggressive attacks against a member of another alliance without consulting them first. RoK should not have demanded NSO pay reps without providing evidence to back up their claims and RoK should not have gone to war with the NSO for their doing what any other alliance that actually cares about its membership would have done, which is support a member in the face of false accusations.

You and others can spout on and on about how Sedrick should have handled it or how Heft should have handled it but we are all addressing how RoK did handle it and it was a dismal attempt at diplomacy that did nothing but cause NSO and their own protectorate harm.

If [i]evidence[/i] (not conjecture or speculation) exists that proves Sedrick was a rogue then show it and I will shut up because then I will have no leg to stand on whatsoever. The facts are all that matter in this instance. You ask if Hoo is meant to be telepathic, well how about Heft? Was he supposed to [i]know[/i] that Sedrick was considered a rogue by RoK without them informing NSO before attacking? Were NSO leaders supposed to psychicly know that RoK's claims are legitimate without evidence?

Give me a break.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Keres]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281722451' post='2414544']
Seriously? This is the best you've got
[/quote]

much much better than "RoK is doing this to get to NPO"