Red Raiding Safari

[nippy]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='23 July 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1279840057' post='2384982']
Business will continue to be lucrative....for a time. My only concern is the amount of complaints that have arisen about your raiding habits.

Inevitably you will piss off the wrong group of people.
[/quote]

Arisen? You act as if this were a new thing. People have been complaining about techraiding since its inception. There will always be an opposition to any opinion.

[hizzy]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1279861582' post='2385478']
Arisen? You act as if this were a new thing. People have been complaining about techraiding since its inception. There will always be an opposition to any opinion.
[/quote]

I disagree.

seriously how circular is this im getting dizzy

[Jakome]

[quote name='USOFAA' date='22 July 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1279833564' post='2384798']
Bull i have seen tech raiders older then my nation that are half as big as me. All it takes is one guy that fights back that knows what he is doing. When that 20 tech your after costs you 2Mil in Infra it seems a little backwords to me. I did do one not needed (War) and felt bad so sent peace and stoped attacking him.


That was the first and last time. I am newish to the game but from what i have seen from tech raiders in my own alliance if anything it holds you back. Now if tech raiding is what it takes to keep you in the game i guess thats alright. But overall i am a anti tech raider far as pushing people out of the game well my bet is most of them did not like the game in the first place. I bet you anything the two that tried to raid me made no money when i first started. If anything they lost a tons of it. Well back to the point i bet anything i made more money off 3/50 tech deals then you have made of tech raiding.
[/quote]
Everytime I raid a nation I expect to make 5+ tech, 1million dongs and land. If they cm I lose some tech and infra sure but not nearly enough to justify quitting raiding. Oh and if they ga back they lose and I get more sweet sweet dongs

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Jakome' date='23 July 2010 - 08:22 AM' timestamp='1279887723' post='2385774']
Everytime I raid a nation I expect to make 5+ tech, 1million dongs and land. If they cm I lose some tech and infra sure but not nearly enough to justify quitting raiding. Oh and if they ga back they lose and I get more sweet sweet dongs
[/quote]

At some point your nation will grow large enough that will no longer be the case. The real economics of raiding are such that at some point you do it for fun, not for money/tech/land.

That I think is where people who oppose raiding fail to understand the motivations of those who do it. Anyone who is capable of passing 3rd grade math knows that raiding a nation that holds nukes is economically stupid. But it happens.

I personally stopped raiding long ago. It was no longer economically viable and while I always had fun doing it, I wanted to stop while I was still having fun. Doing something until you hate it simply because others are doing it or out of habit is not a reason to do something.

To those being raided now: clearly there is no protection for you on Red any more. My suggestion would be that if you are in a micro alliance and prefer it be in one that you negotiate a legitimate protectorate with a larger alliance will to go to bat for you (any team color will do) or at the very least organize a co-operative with other micro alliances that will constitute a MDP with each other to deal with raiders.

[USOFAA]

[quote name='Thrash' date='22 July 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1279837193' post='2384909']
So, I take it WF has stopped raiding? What brought that change about? You guys raided like mad back not too long ago.
[/quote]
I am not sure i know there has been a wF rule change about raiding. But i dont talk for wF just my self. And i am/was always getting on WF tech raiders.

[nippy]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='23 July 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1279889452' post='2385791']
At some point your nation will grow large enough that will no longer be the case. The real economics of raiding are such that at some point you do it for fun, not for money/tech/land.

That I think is where people who oppose raiding fail to understand the motivations of those who do it. Anyone who is capable of passing 3rd grade math knows that raiding a nation that holds nukes is economically stupid. But it happens.

I personally stopped raiding long ago. It was no longer economically viable and while I always had fun doing it, I wanted to stop while I was still having fun. Doing something until you hate it simply because others are doing it or out of habit is not a reason to do something.

To those being raided now: clearly there is no protection for you on Red any more. My suggestion would be that if you are in a micro alliance and prefer it be in one that you negotiate a legitimate protectorate with a larger alliance will to go to bat for you (any team color will do) or at the very least organize a co-operative with other micro alliances that will constitute a MDP with each other to deal with raiders.
[/quote]

This is the most balanced and logical statement I've ever read of yours. Nice one.

[Enrage]

[quote name='Thrash' date='22 July 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1279837193' post='2384909']
So, I take it WF has stopped raiding? What brought that change about? You guys raided like mad back not too long ago.
[/quote]

We saw a bright light when Jebus Christ told us not to raid anymore...or did he?
[img]http://worldfed.net/forum/public/style_images/4_evil.PNG[/img]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='wickedj' date='22 July 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1279831964' post='2384766']

Also, re: scale, how many red nations v blue/green/black/maroon/etc are being raided? How about over the past week? Month? Red just wants to be special..oh and i see you dodging the rest of my post its ok i understand you dont care and just want to spout your morals

[/quote]
Being masked at our forums, you have read the raiders' thread about the safari and know well enough that at this point there is an effort to raid Red over other colors among those already raiding.

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1279896569' post='2385857']
This is the most balanced and logical statement I've ever read of yours. Nice one.
[/quote]
Hal never did have my [i]panache[/i].

[Daimos]

Ok, less post on the morality, advantages, and disadvantages of tech raiding. That is not the issue here.

Stick to the OP's issue. It is a much more interesting read.

One thing I am not quite clear yet. Who's idea is this raid? Do we have a name of this person?

[nippy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1279899512' post='2385915']

Hal never did have my [i]panache[/i].
[/quote]

After seeing how you and your Nemesis entourage spoke to Beefspari about the USSR incident, I'm afraid I've lost quite a bit of respect for you. A person such as yourself, whose reputation is to be one of the more professional alliance leaders on this planet, should not require a load of outside parties to discuss CoJ business for you. Also, for you to talk to a lady the way you did is beyond pathetic.

[quote][10:12:21 PM] <Schattenmann> We've been pretty !@#$@#$ diplomatic[/quote]

Diplomacy isn't a 5-on-one gangbang consisting of your friends telling a government member of ours what to do. Thank you for minding the way you treat her the next time you decide to be '!@#$@#$ diplomatic' with her. Have a great weekend.

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#FF0000"]The farmer plants the seeds that will sprout...

Red Raiding Safari is just another attempt at asshattery.[/color]

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1279861582' post='2385478']
Arisen? You act as if this were a new thing. People have been complaining about techraiding since its inception. There will always be an opposition to any opinion.
[/quote]
I meant your tech raiding specifically. You raid smaller alliances who can't fight back because of the risk of being curb stomped. Then to get peace they have to come to your forums and beg for mercy.

[Icepick]

If I move to red and put none in my AA, and you guys try to raid me, you'd not complain when I nuke you, right? Since the raided have the right to defend themselves.

[Remaliat]

Since it seems all the OP is doing is a verbal condemnation for the actions then I will do the same.

For shame to the unjust, for attacking nations who are unaligned/unprotected is sooo 2008.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='CodyHaner' date='23 July 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1279913745' post='2386400']
If I move to red and put none in my AA, and you guys try to raid me, you'd not complain when I nuke you, right? Since the raided have the right to defend themselves.
[/quote]


Try it go change to red and have none in your AA for a week. see if anyone will raid you? Or you could post here some more.

As already stated before numerous times Raiders generally avoid people with nukes because really what would be the point. But don't let that get in the way of your veiled attempt to flex.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[flak attack]

[quote name='CodyHaner' date='23 July 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1279913745' post='2386400']
If I move to red and put none in my AA, and you guys try to raid me, you'd not complain when I nuke you, right? Since the raided have the right to defend themselves.
[/quote]
Other than the occasional "Man, off all the raids we've launched in the past month, I had to get the one that nuked" comment, I don't think I've ever heard anyone from a serious raiding alliance complain about targets using nukes. Just know that if you nuke, you're going to get nuked back.

[wickedj]

all this thread needs now is Grub to come by to threaten to roll \m\ again

[Vhalen]

First off, I see post after post of "Why is red special? We raid such-and-so, and blah blah blah." When organized, large-scale campaigns of raiding are conducted on the other spheres, perhaps this will be valid. Until then, shut up. You know who you are.

Moving on.

[quote name='wickedj' date='20 July 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1279608259' post='2380197']
Pssst..that didnt work out so well last time itll work even worse this time
[/quote]
Clearly, NpO's mistake was to declare a war, when they should have simply explained that they don't recognize alliances with certain names, and declared it a large-scale tech raid on unaligned nations. Obviously, by \m/ standards, nobody would have anything to complain about, and the only possible recourse would be for allies to try to negotiate for ending the raids. After a few cycles of raids, it would've ended, with nobody important hurt. Right?

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='20 July 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1279644380' post='2380797']
I don't believe that individual nations have those rights. They have the right to exist and the right to join an alliance, but that is about it.
[/quote]
Why do alliances have these rights, then? And why at a specific number of nations? 10 have no rights, 11 are sacrosanct? Isn't that kind of arbitrary? Why not only recognize alliances whose names begin with certain letters of the alphabet, or are over 10 letters long? Perhaps you need to review your entire code from the ground up. It seems inherently flawed.

Oh, here's your reasoning, though you don't state it aloud:
[quote name='Bob Janova' date='20 July 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1279651659' post='2381031']
Maybe not directly, but the only reason \m/ is able to pull stunts like this is through the power of SF backing them up.
[/quote]
Raiding is an inherently cowardly activity, organized raiding campaigns even more so. And when someone has to limit themselves to attacking weaker unaligned who [i]already have several defensive wars[/i], it speaks a great deal to their character, or lack thereof.

You reap what you sow. When the hammer eventually comes down, expect a lot of chirping from the gallery. It'll be well earned.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Vhalen' date='23 July 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1279918313' post='2386519']
Clearly, NpO's mistake was to declare a war, when they should have simply explained that they don't recognize alliances with certain names, and declared it a large-scale tech raid on unaligned nations. Obviously, by \m/ standards, nobody would have anything to complain about, and the only possible recourse would be for allies to try to negotiate for ending the raids. After a few cycles of raids, it would've ended, with nobody important hurt. Right?
[/quote]

What are you blathering on about? Raiders don't recognize none as an alliance because...it's not. When you put none as an alliance affiliation you're saying...wait for it...you're not affiliated with an alliance.

It's amazing isn't it?

[Baldr]

[quote name='palaceofhate' date='22 July 2010 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1279817880' post='2384511']
How else am I supposed to get tech at low, low prices?
[/quote]

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=393738

Your nation, 125 days old, 8,868.387 NS, 2,000.35 infra..

[quote name='mrwuss' date='22 July 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1279833968' post='2384810']
Growth is not my primary goal, but I doubt, if compared in a percent based equation, you have made more than me.

I do the same tech deals, I don't buy the tech. I take the tech and get to keep a much larger percent of the money. My trading has been full since my nation was born.
[/quote]

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=407193

Your nation, 57 days old, 6,629.984 NS, 1,796.93 infra.

For comparison :

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=403758

That's QuiGon Jinn, a member of GPA who doesn't raid. He's made his money dealing tech.
71 days old, 10,569.997 NS, 3,000 infra.

He's doing better than either of you who are bragging about the benefits of tech raiding. He's also already bought his first wonder, which neither of you have done.

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Goon%20Order%20of%20Oppression%20Negligence%20and%20Sadism"]GOONS alliance stats[/url]

Average GOONS NS is 9,460, which is very small. So in 71 days, QuiGon is already larger than the average GOONS nation.

At small sizes, I'm sure tech raiding can be profitable. I am in no way disputing that. However, it only works at small sizes. The larger you get, the more it costs to go to war. Lose a little infra when you are small, and it costs little to replace. Lose a little infra when you are larger, and it costs a lot more to replace. Every time someone fights back when you raid them, you lose enough to kill the profits from several raids.

I mentioned the low GOONS NS average this before, and the response from GOONS was "Hey, we recruit, so we have new nations" and "We absorbed a two month old alliance recently".

Most alliances recruit, so that's not really much of an excuse. And that two month old alliance - that's enough time to get roughly where QuiGon is at, since he's barely over 2 months on Planet Bob. Yet he's larger than your entire alliances average.

There is a *reason* why GOONS has such a low average NS. "We recruit" isn't the reason.

[nippy]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='23 July 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1279908178' post='2386155']
I meant your tech raiding specifically. You raid smaller alliances who can't fight back because of the risk of being curb stomped. Then to get peace they have to come to your forums and beg for mercy.
[/quote]

Have you ever been to our mercy boards? No one begs. It's not about begging.


[quote name='Baldr' date='24 July 2010 - 12:38 AM' timestamp='1279924669' post='2386638']
There is a *reason* why GOONS has such a low average NS. "We recruit" isn't the reason.
[/quote]

Really? We've gone up 300 members since this same time last year. Retention of these new members has been spotty at best, and we're still pulling in 1 or 2 members a day despite losing a few here and there. Not sure how our low average NS (which has gone up about 1300 over the past four months) *isn't* due to our recruitment of new members.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Baldr' date='23 July 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1279924669' post='2386638']
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=393738

Your nation, 125 days old, 8,868.387 NS, 2,000.35 infra..



http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=407193

Your nation, 57 days old, 6,629.984 NS, 1,796.93 infra.

For comparison :

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=403758

That's QuiGon Jinn, a member of GPA who doesn't raid. He's made his money dealing tech.
71 days old, 10,569.997 NS, 3,000 infra.

He's doing better than either of you who are bragging about the benefits of tech raiding. He's also already bought his first wonder, which neither of you have done.

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Goon%20Order%20of%20Oppression%20Negligence%20and%20Sadism"]GOONS alliance stats[/url]


Average GOONS NS is 9,460, which is very small. So in 71 days, QuiGon is already larger than the average GOONS nation.
[/quote]

All of these goons raid:
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=403738 Days old: 72 NS: 10,070.271
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=403254 Days old: 74 NS: 12,892.858
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=403083 Days old: 75 NS: 13,160.521
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=406221 Days old: 62 NS: 14,857.568
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=409306 Days old: 46 NS: 11,629.864

Compared to this GPA nation who doesn't raid:
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=252664 Days old: 715 NS: 9,152.686

Cherry picking statistics is [i]way[/i] simple.

[quote]
At small sizes, I'm sure tech raiding can be profitable. I am in no way disputing that. However, it only works at small sizes. The larger you get, the more it costs to go to war. Lose a little infra when you are small, and it costs little to replace. Lose a little infra when you are larger, and it costs a lot more to replace. Every time someone fights back when you raid them, you lose enough to kill the profits from several raids.
[/quote]
And did you think we didn't already know this?

[quote]
I mentioned the low GOONS NS average this before, and the response from GOONS was "Hey, we recruit, so we have new nations" and "We absorbed a two month old alliance recently".

Most alliances recruit, so that's not really much of an excuse. And that two month old alliance - that's enough time to get roughly where QuiGon is at, since he's barely over 2 months on Planet Bob. Yet he's larger than your entire alliances average.

There is a *reason* why GOONS has such a low average NS. "We recruit" isn't the reason.
[/quote]

Guess what, we're tied for the 6th largest alliance as far as members go. We don't recruit. We [b]recruit[/b]. And 98% of them start at 0 days.

As for Facepunch? All but maybe five of the entire alliance was brand spanking new, so yeah, go ahead and compare their growth to an alliance that has more than 80 10K+ infra nations to act as banks.

Yes there is a reason why GOONS has a low average NS, and it sure as hell isn't because we raid.

[Thrash]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='23 July 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1279926094' post='2386665']
Compared to this GPA nation who doesn't raid:
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=252664 Days old: 715 NS: 9,152.686
[/quote]

He may have just recently started selling tech.

He sure isn't buying infra (http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=252664 ), so I'd say he's sitting on a nice chunk of cash, if he's been selling for 700+ days.

edit: fixed link

Edited July 23, 2010 by Thrash

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Thrash' date='23 July 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1279927146' post='2386681']
He may have just recently started selling tech.

He sure isn't buying infra (http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=252664 ), so I'd say he's sitting on a nice chunk of cash, if he's been selling for 700+ days.

edit: fixed link
[/quote]
Oh, I know that it is a bad example to use, I was trying to make a point about how easy it is to pick statistics to fit your point. That nation is most definitely an outlier. (Although QuiGon Jinn linked by Baldr is definitely not the norm, either)

[Daikos]

[quote name='Vhalen' date='23 July 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1279918313' post='2386519']

Clearly, NpO's mistake was to declare a war, when they should have simply explained that they don't recognize alliances with certain names, and declared it a large-scale tech raid on unaligned nations. Obviously, by \m/ standards, nobody would have anything to complain about, and the only possible recourse would be for allies to try to negotiate for ending the raids. After a few cycles of raids, it would've ended, with nobody important hurt. Right?

[/quote]

I've read a lot of nonsensical statements during my time on this Planet but this is really competing for one of the top spots on the list. You should be careful, if you loosen your grip on reality anymore you might float away entirely.