The More You Know!: The Myth of the Ex-Hegemony

[Duncan King]

I agree with most of your analysis but do have to quibble with a part of this

"2. Peace and Love Train

Composed of the CCC, Europa, TFD, NADC, UBD, and GUN, this little bloc is primarily located on the blue sphere. With fairly minimal ties to anyone besides themselves, I'd predict them likely moving closer towards the Blue 2.0 sphere and by that association to C&G. Said prediction largely stems from multiple ties to NV, and the recent addition of the CCC who is strongly tied to NpO and GR."

We are trying to be more independent but we are actually trying to avoid moving towards anyone, especially SuperCompainers. We admitted CCC because they're a cool alliance, loyal allies, and are friends with many of our members. If CCC needs us to back them, we'll be there. But we have no intention of joining the SuperComplainers sphere.

We do value our ties to NV quite a bit, however, and would not be overly opposed to getting closer to Aztec, a bloc that I personally really admire.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Duncan King

[Chief Savage Man]

A good and fairly accurate analysis of the world outside of SF and CnG. Thank you for not including any unsourced predictions of "ZOMG SG GONNA KILL EACH OTHER" or "UNJUST PATH IS GONNA TONK US".

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='19 July 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1279564747' post='2379112']
A good and fairly accurate analysis of the world outside of SF and CnG. Thank you for not including any unsourced predictions of "ZOMG SG GONNA KILL EACH OTHER" or "UNJUST PATH IS GONNA TONK US".
[/quote]


Ascend Ascend!

[Kzoppistan]

I'm glad I took the time to read this. Good stuff.

[Lusitan]

I personally think the analysis makes sense.

Edit: I should also claim some sort of credit, afterall I was having the original discussion with Olaf XD

Edited July 19, 2010 by Lusitan

[Schad]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1279561465' post='2379034']

This is true, but the treaty cancellations have to take place before any meaningful maneuvering takes place. For example, many alliances on the SG side of things viewed IRON as a fairly competant alliance, but one that they wouldn't touch with a 10 foot stick due to many of the allies they had, now that many of said allies are gone, the door is open, or at least is unlocked

I feel as though the manuevering is at least starting to take place though, more in back channels obviously, but Q&A's are going on, feelers are being put out. Time will tell, and possible prove me wrong on this whole affair
[/quote]

And so long as the internal ties in the ex-Heg grouping (and I'm going to call them that because I'm too lazy to think of anything better) continue to break apart, it isn't even really necessary for Legion to sign with GOD or IRON with Athens or what-have-you. Many alliances already have treaties with what I'd consider gatekeeper alliances (or at the very least, their allies do)...those who occupied a position somewhat astride the SG/ex-Heg split, with treaties on both sides. As a conflict chains, those gatekeepers choose their direction and bring along their allies, who bring along theirs, and the whole ex-Heg side (assuming internal treaty connections continue to break down) will cleave itself apart without any conscious attempt to hitch their wagon to either SF or C&G. GATO's entry might bring in NSO and NSO's allies, Kronos' entry might bring in Valhalla and Valhalla's allies, whatever.

And even if the big players still have reservations about some of the ex-Heg alliances, they'll likely find someone with first- or second-order connections to one of those players who doesn't, and after a conflict fighting on the same side (even if not on the same front), they'll start to look like more palatable allies, and soon become entrenched in an entirely different part of the web.


Doesn't necessarily mean that any of this is imminent nor inevitable...neither C&G or SF command such a massive chunk of the world that it [i]has[/i] to happen that way.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Schad' date='19 July 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1279565484' post='2379122']
And so long as the internal ties in the ex-Heg grouping (and I'm going to call them that because I'm too lazy to think of anything better) continue to break apart, it isn't even really necessary for Legion to sign with GOD or IRON with Athens or what-have-you. Many alliances already have treaties with what I'd consider gatekeeper alliances (or at the very least, their allies do)...those who occupied a position somewhat astride the SG/ex-Heg split, with treaties on both sides. As a conflict chains, those gatekeepers choose their direction and bring along their allies, who bring along theirs, and the whole ex-Heg side (assuming internal treaty connections continue to break down) will cleave itself apart without any conscious attempt to hitch their wagon to either SF or C&G. GATO's entry might bring in NSO and NSO's allies, Kronos' entry might bring in Valhalla and Valhalla's allies, whatever.

And even if the big players still have reservations about some of the ex-Heg alliances, they'll likely find someone with first- or second-order connections to one of those players who doesn't, and after a conflict fighting on the same side (even if not on the same front), they'll start to look like more palatable allies, and soon become entrenched in an entirely different part of the web.


Doesn't necessarily mean that any of this is imminent nor inevitable...neither C&G or SF command such a massive chunk of the world that it [i]has[/i] to happen that way.
[/quote]

Pretty much exactly this

[Buds The Man]

I will simply say Fin nice read.

[Uralica]

Very intelligent post, LF. I appreciate when these topics come up that don't spiral into a "verbose NO U" fest.

I would agree with Xiphosis that there is still some very loose connection around, but would emphasise the word [i]loose[/i] in that for the most part.

I figure the PLT lot (including the ever-so-awesome CCC and TFD among others) is probably the most distant from the other ex-Hedgies, but I do agree with DK that I think the chance of them aligning with C&G is pretty slim - even the CCC's relationship with GR predates GR's official entry into that bloc, and I'm not sure what their relationship with that bloc's other members is at the moment. TOOL has a small connection to this group via a PIAT/ODP with CCC.

I wouldn't really put TOOL squarely in any one of the other three groups.

Now of course, our ties to Poseidon/PEACE aren't particularly strong, formally speaking, although we have long held a solid relationship with Olympus and were at one point trying to get chummy with Valhalla (I haven't been in TOOL gov since the beginning of May or so, so I'm not sure what is going on with that at this point, although I've always had a deep respect for some of their members, like Kryievla and Hal).

Our stronger ties (our 3 MDoAPs) would put us literally halfway between the other two groups. We have an MDoAP with FEAR connecting us to Iron Curtain, and I suppose our MDoAP with TPF does as well by extension. On the other hand, we also have strong links to IRON which date back to post-UJW (and about half a year before I entered this realm, well over a year before I joined TOOL).

I don't think the "Ex-Heg" is cohesive enough, though, to even [i]want[/i] to devise a battle plan together. It seems that there's a push for change, and that is why we've seen the spate of cancellations. And something tells me it ain't over just yet.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1279558475' post='2378967']
To close my little analysis,

TLDR: There is no cohesive Ex-Hegemony, rather those groups that composed the Ex-Hegemony have splintered off into four distinct clusters, of which some will likely drift towards C&G, others to SF, and others to the NPO. I'd also like to emphasize when I say that IRON/TOP may move towards SF or PnL towards C&G/Blue 2.0, I'm not saying there is going to be a slew of treaties, or that they are going to be joined at the hip, just that in the event of the eventual SF-C&G war, the current minimal connections they have to a respective side would likely draw them in, and that if SF/C&G are clever they will probably endeavor to strengthen existing ties to bring the more competent and palatable "Ex-Heg" alliances to their side.
[/quote]
I'll skip the huge wall of text and proceed right to your conclusion...

I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree that there is no "cohesive" ex-Hegemony, but besides that it's not like that much has changed from the situation right before the second UJW. What is important, are the ties from each power cluster to another. Obviously SF and CnG are well connected, as is Bleu 2.0 with CnG. You'll have to look at the movements of alliances on the periphery for indications of what might happen.
The powersphere with the most connections to the other side (from a SG perspective) is Bleu 2.0, as was the case right before the second UJW. A major factor back then in the time leading up to that last war were the cunning moves of NSO (Ivan Moldavi), who was able to unite all of ex-Heg and former FB to form a side which was stronger than SF and CnG combined.
A SG split will only occur if another scenario like that of the 2nd UJW will come about, otherwise I think it is very unlikely anything will happen within the near future. SF and CnG simply have no reason to change their course, since they know they can trust and rely upon each other, whereas that is unclear (to say the least) about other powerspheres.
And should they choose to ally former opponents, then they risk causing distrust, anxiety and the like within SG, with all consequences that will have.

I commend IRON for doing the only sensible thing they can do in the current situation, and no doubt that this will help them in the long run, if they do it right. It's good to see (for Planet Bob in general) that there are still ambitious alliances on this world.

Toppling the giant is hard, but fun to do. And if you are competent enough, you will succeed.
I won't wish them good luck, but I will be happy to watch the intrigue from a distance in the coming months. It promises to be an exciting autumn for sure.

[Ryan Greenberg]

Great post that speaks the truth. It is clear that the "ex-Hegemony" was existint after Karma, but split up during Bi-Polar. I find it impossible that the 'ex-Hegemony" can and will band up together to try and take down SG. Their final chances
were WWE and the Bi-Polar War [b](before TOP and IRON attacked C&G)[/b], but we all know WWE ended in peace and the Bi-Polar War ended in an "ex-Hegemony" defat. They are just too weak now. I expect SuperGrievances dominance to continue throughout the remaining year, but there will be a split eventually. The OP said it best: SG is todays modern equivalent of WUT, and the "ex-Hegemony" is todays League/Aegis. Because the ex-Hegemony lost two consecutive major wars in Karma and Bi-Polar, they are so fractured they can't really stand a chance against SuperGrivances, even with NPO. Each splinter sphere of the former Hegemony who fought together in Karma and Bi-Polar (Iron Curtain, P&L, TOP/IRON, Poseidon/PEACE) now have to decide where they should go between SF or CnG/Blue 2.0(?)*. This pretty much means in my opinion, the next months will most likely be as uneventfull and boring as the last few since Bi-Polar, but we all know a SF(with some ex-Heg)-CnG/Blue 2.0(with some ex-Heg) would be a fun battle to fight and watch when it does eventually happen. Right now though, SG are just too close and the splinter spheres of the ex-Hegemony haven't totally broken up yet. If anything, the remaining year will see the inevitable total break-up of the ex-Hegemony and the grudges left from "ex-Hegemony" alliance move over to SF and CnG causing and eventual rift between SuperGrivances, as the splinters of the former Hegemony ally with one of the two.

* I'm guessing we are calling NpO/STA + company Blue 2.0?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ryan Greenberg

[Daimos]

Good analysis.

[Believland]

Very well written. I can see most of what you wrote.

[Lincongrad]

Good post, but one complaint:

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1279558475' post='2378967']
To use a Aegis/League example again, you saw ODN and Legion and GATO forming up a large part of the core opposition to WUT, the 2006/2007 equivalent to SuperGrievances, and then just months later in the UJW, you had ODN, Legion, and GATO all fighting on the side of the NPO.
[/quote]

If I remember correctly, Legion at least fought Valhalla and \m/ in support of NpO, in almost direct opposition to NPO. In fact, the only reason that Valhalla got a white peace (as opposed to either continuing the war or paying up... not gonna start a debate there) was that NPO threatened to rearrange our faces if we didn't let Valhalla off and we believed we couldn't count on the support of the coalition we went into battle with, so we backed down.
Basically, we were most definitely not fighting for NPO there.

Just a little thing that's been bugging me.

[Kongo Jack IV]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1279558475' post='2378967']
2. Peace and Love Train

Composed of the CCC, Europa, TFD, NADC, UBD, and GUN, this little bloc is primarily located on the blue sphere. With fairly minimal ties to anyone besides themselves, I'd predict them likely moving closer towards the Blue 2.0 sphere and by that association to C&G. Said prediction largely stems from multiple ties to NV, and the recent addition of the CCC who is strongly tied to NpO and GR.
[/quote]

Europa is a white alliance, just FYI. I cant speak for the other guys, but we are very very connected with our other allies.

[kriekfreak]

Your whole post is self-fulling prophecy. If you repeat it enough others will believe it as well and it will become true in due time. And besides that, I still keep the possibility open that this 'split' from Duckroll from ex-hegemony was all orchestrated to try to cause rivalry between CnG and SF. Call it far-fetched or insane, only time will tell the truth.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='kriekfreak' date='19 July 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1279571071' post='2379264']
Your whole post is self-fulling prophecy. If you repeat it enough others will believe it as well and it will become true in due time. And besides that, I still keep the possibility open that this 'split' from Duckroll from ex-hegemony was all orchestrated to try to cause rivalry between CnG and SF. Call it far-fetched or insane, only time will tell the truth.
[/quote]

Pygmaleon effect. Bring Xiphosis in for a social experiment XD

[Ketther]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1279558475' post='2378967']
"Ex-Heg" is no long a collective political identity, rather they're splintering off to either the SF or C&G area of influence, if you paid attention to the OWF you would notice the "Ex-Heg" treaties being cancelled left and right, and many old school NPO allies now having little love for them, and no interest in tieing themselves to the NPO banner. I'd encourage someone to try to name me an "Ex-Heg" alliance in the top 20 besides the NPO. Perhaps TOOL considering they have a secondhand link to NPO via TPF and they are also tied to FEAR who is in a bloc with two direct NPO MDoAP partners, however, thats a rather tenuous link. The Legion is the only true Ex-Heg top 20 alliance left besides NPO, but with these recent cancellations, it looks like they're off to suck the power teat of someone else, so that could bring their Ex-Heg status to an end soon. In essence, SF and C&G won, congratulations, the larger Superfriends and Complaints and Grievances cluster is utterly unopposed, no I'm not trying to trick you into letting your guard down and getting killer by those evil Ex-Heggers, I'm a member of your new world order, its in my interest to see it continue. To use a Aegis/League example again, you saw ODN and Legion and GATO forming up a large part of the core opposition to WUT, the 2006/2007 equivalent to SuperGrievances, and then just months later in the UJW, you had ODN, Legion, and GATO all fighting on the side of the NPO. History repeats itself, Ex-Hegemony alliances are splintering off to either SF or C&G, notable example, UPN has clearly aligned itself with C&G/Blue 2.0, and other examples will be soon to come.
[/quote]

And you say they are not out to get us!!!!! It's clear they want to pull both sides until SG splits.

And yes, I know that five exclamation marks are a clear sign of a deranged mind, thank you.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='kriekfreak' date='19 July 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1279571071' post='2379264']
And besides that, I still keep the possibility open that this 'split' from Duckroll from ex-hegemony was all orchestrated to try to cause rivalry between CnG and SF.[/quote]

+

[quote]If you repeat it enough, others will believe it as well and it will become true in due time[/quote]

Great read Lord Fingolfin, hope it evolves into a newsletter. I would subscribe.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Tromp' date='19 July 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1279566932' post='2379154']
I'll skip the huge wall of text and proceed right to your conclusion...

I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree that there is no "cohesive" ex-Hegemony, but besides that it's not like that much has changed from the situation right before the second UJW. What is important, are the ties from each power cluster to another. Obviously SF and CnG are well connected, as is Bleu 2.0 with CnG. You'll have to look at the movements of alliances on the periphery for indications of what might happen.

A SG split will only occur if another scenario like that of the 2nd UJW will come about, otherwise I think it is very unlikely anything will happen within the near future. SF and CnG simply have no reason to change their course, since they know they can trust and rely upon each other, whereas that is unclear (to say the least) about other powerspheres.
And should they choose to ally former opponents, then they risk causing distrust, anxiety and the like within SG, with all consequences that will have.

[/quote]

I'd counter your first point, the "Ex-Heg" side of the BiPolar War, was also casually referenced to as TIFDTT or the IRON/TOP coalition. IRON and TOP have basically just distanced themselves from the remaining 3 power clusters and in many arena's have stated that they although they still have some friends on "that side of the web", they don't wish to be dragged into any more wars with them against SG. When the two most important alliances of the "Ex-Heg" side have basically jumped ship (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards either IRON or TOP), you can't say that "little has changed", the very core of the Ex-Hegemony has left and the fabric holding the whole thing together is unraveling at the seams

I agree with your second premise that the only way SF and C&G would split is a situation similar to the BiPolar War, SF and C&G have generally good relations, and a common interest in staying peaceful, neither side is going to actively work against the other, its not going to be like Electron Sponge plotting to overthrow the UJP. However, you seem to insinuate that such BiPolar esque situations are occasions of extreme rarity, when in reality they've proven to be relatively common. The Tilton hacking fiasco almost resulted in a war, and there are still grudges and wounds between SG alliance over that, the GOD-IAA quarrel over the OOC attack on Xiphosis almost brought SF & C&G to blows as well. Its only a matter of time before another such incident happens and someone loses their temper and rolls tanks

[quote name='Lincongrad' date='19 July 2010 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1279570351' post='2379242']
Good post, but one complaint:



If I remember correctly, Legion at least fought Valhalla and \m/ in support of NpO, in almost direct opposition to NPO. In fact, the only reason that Valhalla got a white peace (as opposed to either continuing the war or paying up... not gonna start a debate there) was that NPO threatened to rearrange our faces if we didn't let Valhalla off and we believed we couldn't count on the support of the coalition we went into battle with, so we backed down.
Basically, we were most definitely not fighting for NPO there.

Just a little thing that's been bugging me.
[/quote]

I can see the angle you're coming from there, you were more with the NpO than NPO in that case, but the reality still stands that you were on the same overall side as the NPO, nonwithstanding the subsequent quarrel of Valhallan peace terms. You didn't decide to side with the UJP alliances and try to even the score against the WUT after the crushing GWIII loss, instead you rode to war under the greater WUT banner, rightly so since \m/ attacked ODN in that case.


[quote name='Kongo Jack' date='19 July 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1279570672' post='2379248']
Europa is a white alliance, just FYI. I cant speak for the other guys, but we are very very connected with our other allies.
[/quote]

Aye, Europa is white, and GUN is aqua, however the majority of the bloc is blue.


[quote name='Thorgrum' date='19 July 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1279573148' post='2379306']
Great read Lord Fingolfin, hope it evolves into a newsletter. I would subscribe.
[/quote]

Flattered to be sure, yet I don't have any grand newsletter plans. However, I might adopt the "The More You Know!" theme for future issues, should topics arise that I feel compelled to discuss/evaluate, and regarding which I am knowledgeable.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Lord Fingolfin

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='19 July 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1279563447' post='2379084']
Which was the expectation, and the hope, after Karma. It was the justification used by many members of that coalition to lay down next to nothing in terms. It wasn't what we saw. They banded together offensively, and I got to be very smug with a lot of people. I should've bet tech.
[/quote]
Huh?

The two alliances to launch large-scale offensive wars since the Karma War were Athens and Polar, both of whom fought for Karma. If you're going to count TOP-C&G as a separate war, then that makes three large-scale offensive wars launched by Karma alliances, and if you count Grämlins-IRON, it makes four.

Make no mistake, it's not the alliances that fought for Hegemony/Armageddon in the Karma War that have been launching aggressive wars. Every single one has been launched by a victorious Karma alliance, not someone that got light terms.

Anyway, as for the analysis, I would agree with the general direction of the analysis, except that it's really late. The Hegemony, so called, has been a loose band of alliances held together by long-distance treaty ties for a long time.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='19 July 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1279578599' post='2379408']
Huh?

The two alliances to launch large-scale offensive wars since the Karma War were Athens and Polar, both of whom fought for Karma. If you're going to count TOP-C&G as a separate war, then that makes three large-scale offensive wars launched by Karma alliances, and if you count Grämlins-IRON, it makes four.
[/quote]

It seems D34TH is on a break or something, so I'll fill in for him.

Polar wasn't in Karma! Not a chance! They definitely didn't fight with Karma, you are mistaken! They had nothing at all to do with that war!

[size="1"](just kidding D34TH, you know I love you) [/size]

[Tromp]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='20 July 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1279578332' post='2379400']
I'd counter your first point, the "Ex-Heg" side of the BiPolar War, was also casually referenced to as TIFDTT or the IRON/TOP coalition. IRON and TOP have basically just distanced themselves from the remaining 3 power clusters and in many arena's have stated that they although they still have some friends on "that side of the web", they don't wish to be dragged into any more wars with them against SG. When the two most important alliances of the "Ex-Heg" side have basically jumped ship (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards either IRON or TOP), you can't say that "little has changed", the very core of the Ex-Hegemony has left and the fabric holding the whole thing together is unraveling at the seams
[/quote]
"Little has changed", because even though it is correct that IRON (better said: Duckroll sphere) cut some [i]formal[/i] ties to alliances on the opposite side of SG, [i]informal[/i] relations and a few key treaties (like the IRON-NSO treaty) are still there. Had IRON cancelled NSO (as I said, the one alliance that brought ex-Heg together in the second UJW), and/or signed with a SF sphere alliance for instance, then something would have really changed. Now it looks more like they simply cut off some dead weight.
It also gives alliances such as NSO way more influence in international matters, since they will be almost exclusively backed by one of the strongest spheres on Bob.

So in a way I have to agree, it does changes something, but in that this move has the opposite effect from what you are saying.

[quote]
I agree with your second premise that the only way SF and C&G would split is a situation similar to the BiPolar War, SF and C&G have generally good relations, and a common interest in staying peaceful, neither side is going to actively work against the other, its not going to be like Electron Sponge plotting to overthrow the UJP. However, you seem to insinuate that such BiPolar esque situations are occasions of extreme rarity, when in reality they've proven to be relatively common. The Tilton hacking fiasco almost resulted in a war, and there are still grudges and wounds between SG alliance over that, the GOD-IAA quarrel over the OOC attack on Xiphosis almost brought SF & C&G to blows as well. Its only a matter of time before another such incident happens and someone loses their temper and rolls tanks
[/quote]
Yeah, those situations obviously caused tension, but to say the involved alliances were at each others throats or even worse, held a grudge over them, is not true.
Ofcourse, for outsiders it may seem like that, and if you are an opponent of SG (I'm not saying you are per sé) then it is logical that you want those situations to escalate beyond repair (and perhaps fuel those sentiments while the situation is still unresolved), but those who lead SG right now know perfectly well what is at stake.

I guess I simply have more confidence in them then you do.

[Tarikmo]

[quote name='Kongo Jack' date='19 July 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1279570672' post='2379248']
Europa is a white alliance, just FYI. I cant speak for the other guys, but we are very very connected with our other allies.
[/quote]
I'm guessing that's why he said primarily, rather than completely.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Tromp' date='19 July 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1279580110' post='2379444']
"Little has changed", because even though it is correct that IRON (better said: Duckroll sphere) cut some [i]formal[/i] ties to alliances on the opposite side of SG, [i]informal[/i] relations and a few key treaties (like the IRON-NSO treaty) are still there. Had IRON cancelled NSO (as I said, the one alliance that brought ex-Heg together in the second UJW), and/or signed with a SF sphere alliance for instance, then something would have really changed. Now it looks more like they simply cut off some dead weight.
It also gives alliances such as NSO way more influence in international matters, since they will be almost exclusively backed by one of the strongest spheres on Bob.

So in a way I have to agree, it does changes something, but in that this move has the opposite effect from what you are saying.


Yeah, those situations obviously caused tension, but to say the involved alliances were at each others throats or even worse, held a grudge over them, is not true.
Ofcourse, for outsiders it may seem like that, and if you are an opponent of SG (I'm not saying you are per sé) then it is logical that you want those situations to escalate beyond repair (and perhaps fuel those sentiments while the situation is still unresolved), but those who lead SG right now know perfectly well what is at stake.

I guess I simply have more confidence in them then you do.
[/quote]

To once again haggle over the first point, if you're going to make the point that with less treaties IRON is more likely to back NSO, then it is just as likely that they are more likely to back R&R and hence SF as a whole, it can go both ways. But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the second, I'd hardly say I'm an opponent of SG, I'm a member of RIA and plan to be so for sometime as I work to actively engage myself in working for the alliance. I know that Poison Clan seems to still hold a grudge against RIA over the Tilton affair, some of our diplomats who have gone over there have been met with hostility and banned from their forums (nothing against PC, I actually hold them in fairly high regard), and thats just one of what I'm sure if several examples. I'm not saying that I want SG to fail, I just feel its likely that it is.