Are the NPO still the bad guys?

[silentkiller]

[quote name='StevieG' date='18 July 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1279451683' post='2377105']
You dont have the force to gun for us in game at the moment, and it probably would be a bad strategy to just run on an old feud you may have had in the past. Having said that, reading NPO posts which concern NPO-TORN, you do in fact attack us.

And no, I dont think NPO is the bad guy, until I can be otherwise convinced though, they are the enemy. But I guess they have to line up
[/quote]

If Torn and Bigwoody were the same thing your post would make sense. But as they aren't it doesn't.

[Jens of the desert]

I think there are bad guys on all sides of the web nowadays.

[Cortath]

[quote name='StevieG' date='18 July 2010 - 07:15 AM' timestamp='1279451683' post='2377105']
You dont have the force to gun for us in game at the moment, and it probably would be a bad strategy to just run on an old feud you may have had in the past. Having said that, reading NPO posts which concern NPO-TORN, you do in fact attack us.

And no, I dont think NPO is the bad guy, until I can be otherwise convinced though, they are the enemy. But I guess they have to line up
[/quote]

I believe silentkiller gave a better response than I. I have nothing but contempt for bigwoody, and I have nothing against the rest of the people in your alliance, or your alliance as a whole.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Banksy' date='16 July 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1279334906' post='2375400']
Same faces, [b]same allies,[/b] same talk. Not really.
[/quote]
Really?

The NPO's treaties today.

Treaty Name
PIAT GATO
NAP IRON
Red Dawn Cult of Justitia, The Moralist Front
MDP New Sith Order
MADP The Phoenix Federation
MDP North Atlantic Treaty Organization
MDoAP Regnum Invictorum
MDoAP Olympus
MDP the Legion
Protectorate Red Nation Union

The NPO's treaties at the time of the signing of Continuum, not including One Vision and Continuum, which I think is pretty arguably the height of NPO power.

MADP New Polar Order
MDP Grand Global Alliance
MADP Viridian Entente
MDP Mostly Harmless Alliance
MDP Global Democratic Alliance
MDP Illuminati
MDP The Order of the Paradox
Friendship Pact ULN
The Ring Cycle MADP MCXA, GDA
Protectorate Norden Verein
MDP Siberian Tigers Alliance
MDP North Atlantic Treaty Organization
MADP The Phoenix Federation
MADP IRON
MDOAP TSH
MDP Sparta
MDP Atlantis
MADP Valhalla
MDP TORN
Protectorate Mafia
PIAT Grämlins

There are exactly two treaties in both lists, the MDP with NATO and the MADP with TPF. That's it.

[HellAngel]

NPO were pretty much amoral, not immoral. So no, they never were bad guys per se. Their actions just suited their own needs, which accounts for most alliances.

[zzzptm]

A better question would be, "Are the NPO content with the status quo, or will they be a revisionistic threat to stability?"

[Letum]

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']
But from an outsider's perspective, you haven't changed. You cite the reasons why you have changed as "now we're not in the position to say 'do something about it'" and "some IOs have left." These aren't examples of how the NPO are no longer the 'bad guys.' They just show that your position in the world has changed.
[/quote]

The only way for an outsider to judge the personality of an alliance is through its actions. Your dismissal of the change in our actions as a result of temporal circumstances does not constitute "proof" we have not changed. It constitutes of an [i]assumption[/i] we have not changed and a dismissal of any evidence to the contrary via the use of a possible explanation.

That, of course, is a fallacious appeal to probability. Just because we [i]could[/i] be pulling off a "theatrical act" due to our lack of power does not mean we [i]are[/i]. If you look at what we actually have done, such as a complete leadership overhaul (I believe we have only 2 IO's who were still around a year ago), several attempts to discuss things on a civil level with people on the "other side", acts to improve co-operation in the red team and help small alliances on it, and the lack of any realignment with some of the more jingoist elements of the old hegemony, you would get a hint that we have in fact changed quite a lot.

But it is hard to "prove" something if empirical evidence is dismissable as circumstantial. You obviously cannot read our minds, so you'd have to rely on an assumption, and we can't prove what is in it.


[quote]Just because someone is in a position of power doesn't mean they are 'the bad guy.' For much of CN's history, the NPO were 'the bad guys' as well as being in power. It doesn't mean that everyone else smelt of roses. Just because of the position an alliance finds itself in doesn't mean the rest of the world considers them to be changed or sees them differently. [/quote]

I could actually argue that that point is not entirely accurate, as power plays a large role in behaviour, both in terms of "power corrupts", and in terms of serving as an enabling role for the more aggressive elements in a group that would then "push the line", but still end up supported by their allies until the point where they have pushed one time too many and you get a split in the coalition.

[quote]
Your comments on your allies are also rather odd. RIA, RoK, FOK etc have changed their place. They are leaders in a new world. They have made obvious steps to move away from their hegemony past. If you started to sign treaties with them, then i'm sure people might think that you have changed. Therefore the fact that you are allied to TPF, Invicta etc, alliances who have not tried to change their position in the world, shows that you, too, have not changed.
[/quote]

That is a bit of a catch-22 situation. Many alliances "changed their place" by disassociating themselves from us or the people we are close to. We obviously do not have the same chance to make a statement about changing position by going far away from the NPO, so you look towards our allies; but those people are our allies because they stayed with us and are good friends, not because they "represent" anything. To simply abandon our friends for the sake of political convenience would make us...well, not a very nice alliance. Not one I would want to be treatied to anyway.

But if Legion and Invicta represent your interpretation of our "hegemony past"...well, I would call that interpretation faulty.


[quote] Until I see change from the NPO, then i'm still going to hold that opinion. And so are a lot of other people.
[/quote]

I do not mean to sound flippant, but to see something, you have to open your eyes.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name="Letum"]To simply abandon our friends for the sake of political convenience would make us...well, not a very nice alliance. Not one I would want to be treatied to anyway.
[/quote]
I think someone just broke the irony barrier.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='18 July 2010 - 08:11 AM' timestamp='1279458650' post='2377177']
NPO were pretty much amoral, not immoral. So no, they never were bad guys per se. Their actions just suited their own needs, which accounts for most alliances.
[/quote]
This is what I was saying, but more clear than I managed to articulate.

There are no real bad guys, and on a related note no real good guys either. Everyone is self-interested.

[Ghuxalia]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='18 July 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1279473254' post='2377347']
This is what I was saying, but more clear than I managed to articulate.

There are no real bad guys, and on a related note no real good guys either. Everyone is self-interested.
[/quote]
What about Jesus/Gandhi/Other religious/historical figures?

On a scale of 1 to Evil, NPO is about a 17.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Ghuxalia' date='18 July 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1279492706' post='2377863']
What about Jesus/Gandhi/Other religious/historical figures?

On a scale of 1 to Evil, NPO is about a 17.
[/quote]

Yes because they all played a nation stimulator called Cybernations.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' date='18 July 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1279445885' post='2377041']
Of course the NPO is still evil, if not that means we need a new "boogey man", and I for one, dont like change
[/quote]
At least you're honest

Morality means dirt in an online simulation game. There is self interest, and a lot of it, but morality only holds you back.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Branimir' date='18 July 2010 - 04:08 AM' timestamp='1279408067' post='2376385']
we did established nice communication with R&R, but unfortunately due to some nudging from some third parties treaty couldn't come out of that. Doesn't mean that we dont have a much better relations with them.
[/quote]

"Dealing with NPO" SoP:
- Keep saying "Ebil NPO must change"
- Seekretly, behind the doors, ensure NPO is locked out in terms of FA options. "nudging from some third parties"
- Cry foul that NPO hasnt changed, has same old ebil hegemonic allies therefore NPO is still the arch-villain.

[Corinan]

Voted yes. Don't change, Pacifica.

[Ryan Greenberg]

NPO is still bad, in my opinion, but they don't have a stable enough power sphere to be considered the "bad guys" of CN.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ryan Greenberg

[Skap Q]

Join a small alliance that isnt a the lap dog of a bigger group of idiots.

[Caleb279]

Ever since the first 3 great wars, CN has turned into a cluster&*%$ of treaties, spies, and politics. There's so many lines drawn that its impossible to tell who the bad guys are.

But you want my opinion? Yes. They are.

[Kioram]

NPO is a class of its own really.

[RobertFitzy]

The game is not really that black and white anymore. Its all perspective.

[Ghuxalia]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='18 July 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1279500161' post='2378003']
Yes because they all played a nation stimulator called Cybernations.
[/quote]
You need to learn to count.

[Chief Stubbs]

Well, since now, apparently, \m/ = NPO, I believe that makes us the bad guys. But we're friendly! I swear!

[hawk11]

[quote name='Qazzian' date='16 July 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1279297239' post='2374577']
C'mon people, pay attention to the OWF. We're evil when we're on top, we're evil when we're giving reps, we're evil when we're losing a war, we're evil when we surrender, we're evil when we pay reps, we're evil when we don't pay them fast enough, we're evil when we don't break terms, we're evil when we complete terms and we're evil when we rebuild. Therefore, we must be pretty gosh darn evil.
[/quote]

Personally, these days I take an old-man-on-the-porch approach to CN politics, but I agree with this post. Everyone in CyberNations love to hate us, and it's never going to change with some no matter how hard we try. For the rest of you, come stop by.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='Branimir' date='17 July 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1279384884' post='2375908']
What do you mean by "same faces"? Leadership? Its changed. Some Moo's IOs now are going to MK as a matter of fact. Membership? That would seem silly.
[/quote]

Are they Moo's IO's because they went to MK or did they go to MK because they were Moo's?

Also the general style of posting of the NPO members in this thread probably showed just how much NPO has changed, just as much as the fact that "is X ebiiil" threads are still being posted shows how much CN has changed.

[Vladimir]

[quote name='Chief Stubbs' date='23 July 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1279902676' post='2385965']Well, since now, apparently, \m/ = NPO, I believe that makes us the bad guys. But we're friendly! I swear![/quote]
I guess. In the same way that a drunk teenager is kind of like an international drug baron.

[Chief Stubbs]

[quote name='Vladimir' date='23 July 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1279907260' post='2386111']
I guess. In the same way that a drunk teenager is kind of like an international drug baron.
[/quote]
Right. Well, I suppose it's now proven that NPO metaphorically likens themselves to "international drug barons", which is kind of weird in its own right, but okay.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Chief Stubbs