Are the NPO still the bad guys?

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Cortath' date='17 July 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1279395415' post='2376130']
You're [i]very[/i] deluded, bigwoody, if you think we're openly gunning for you. I will not hide my contempt for you as an individual, but to think that we wish to do anything to your alliance smacks more of your own egotism than anything about my own alliance's desires.
[/quote]

Never believe anything until it's been officially denied. Watch out, Bigwoody!

Anyway, to answer the OP:

NPO is still on the Pacifican Offenders Registry. I wouldn't put it past them to figure out a way to get SF and C&G to split so they could rip up both factions, one at a time. Then, once again, GGA will have a reason to not purchase a WRC.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Llednar Twem' date='17 July 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1279391410' post='2376069']
I'd like you to show us where we have "whined", as you so eloquently put it. I don't think Vladimir's essays and our public media releases count as "whining".
[/quote]
I'm sure you don't.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Tautology]

It's difficult to review your assessment of an alliance when all you have to go on is words. When I see actions by NPO, it'll be easier to see how much they've changed.

[Branimir]

[quote name='zzzptm' date='17 July 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1279396008' post='2376144']I wouldn't put it past them to figure out a way to get SF and C&G to split so they could rip up both factions, one at a time. [/quote]
Maybe NPO from 3 years ago.

That being said no offense to the current set up, they are the best for the current situation and the reason I still hang around in the game honestly speaking. Times change, game changes.
[quote name='Tautology' date='17 July 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1279397559' post='2376174']
It's difficult to review your assessment of an alliance when all you have to go on is words. When I see actions by NPO, it'll be easier to see how much they've changed.[/quote]
Inaction is an action of its own in politics, or political play simulation.

It should tell you a story on its own. It speaks loudly you just need to listen.

[quote]......to my own alliance that they are openly gunning for.....[/quote]
I am actually with mythicknight on this (just asked him to see how well set on Earth the guy is,...turns out much more then you).

To be blunt and no offense, your micro alliance of 38 nations just isn't worth the effort and aggravation.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' date='16 July 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1279315613' post='2375004']
And if you want a guy that is going to save the Super Grievances, Omni is your man too
[/quote]

Already been saved, twice.

[quote name='zzzptm' date='17 July 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1279396008' post='2376144']
Never believe anything until it's been officially denied. Watch out, Bigwoody!

Anyway, to answer the OP:

NPO is still on the Pacifican Offenders Registry. I wouldn't put it past them to figure out a way to get SF and C&G to split so they could rip up both factions, one at a time. Then, once again, GGA will have a reason to not purchase a WRC.
[/quote]

I don't know how that would work since the main reason SF and CnG stays so close is the hate of Pacifica. also.....

Why would GGA not be keeping a WRC if Pacifica is in power? GGA isn't even remotely allied to Pacifica anymore.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='17 July 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1279401433' post='2376245']
Why would GGA not be keeping a WRC if Pacifica is in power? GGA isn't even remotely allied to Pacifica anymore.
[/quote]

It's the obligatory lolGGA reference. Haven't had one in a while.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Branimir' date='18 July 2010 - 05:41 AM' timestamp='1279384884' post='2375908']
What an interesting remark.
What do you mean by "same faces"? Leadership? Its changed. Some Moo's IOs now are going to MK as a matter of fact. Membership? That would seem silly. [/quote]
I look around these forums, I still see the same people posting. A few IOs might be gone, but I think it's safe to say that we still see Bilrow, Mary, Vlad, Moo and Sir Paul. We also tend to see most IOs as 'more of the same.' When you think of the ODN, I suspect you can't think of individual leaders, you think of them en mass, regardless of any changes that have been made.

[quote name='Branimir' date='18 July 2010 - 05:41 AM' timestamp='1279384884' post='2375908']
Same talk? I dont know, not only is NPO's presence around here on all time low with just couple of NPO posters here and there posting something from time to time, they are also far too tame. Long gone are the days of Thorne,...what a tragedy. [/quote]
Nope, same old posting. It hasn't changed at all. I don't know if you have an OWF posting guide on your forums, but it really just seems like you're all trying to copy Vlad's (rather good) posting style.

[quote name='Branimir' date='18 July 2010 - 05:41 AM' timestamp='1279384884' post='2375908']
Same allies? This strike me the most as that should be most obvious. What same allies? We arent allied with over 70% of our previous allies,...Sparta, MHA, FOK, RoK, RIA, Val, TORN, NpO, TOP,...god knows who else.[/quote]
Most of those alliances were not close NPO supporters for most of their existence, not to the extent of TPF, Invicta, Legion etc. Alliances who, coincidently, you are still allied too. In fact, aside from the NSO, do you have one treaty with an alliance who you were not treatied to before Karma? It doesn't look like you've reached out to try and change your image, rather you are preserving the old one by keeping to the same, reduced, circle of friends.

Don't get me wrong, I like your spirit but unfortunately find your explanation of your belief totally disconnected with any objective reality.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='zzzptm' date='17 July 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1279396008' post='2376144']
Never believe anything until it's been officially denied. Watch out, Bigwoody!
[/quote]
It doesn't really bother me tbh.

[Williambonney]

LOL is all I have to say to this.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Banksy' date='17 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']
I look around these forums, I still see the same people posting. A few IOs might be gone, but I think it's safe to say that we still see Bilrow, Mary, Vlad, Moo and Sir Paul. We also tend to see most IOs as 'more of the same.' When you think of the ODN, I suspect you can't think of individual leaders, you think of them en mass, regardless of any changes that have been made.


Nope, same old posting. It hasn't changed at all. I don't know if you have an OWF posting guide on your forums, but it really just seems like you're all trying to copy Vlad's (rather good) posting style.


Most of those alliances were not close NPO supporters for most of their existence, not to the extent of TPF, Invicta, Legion etc. Alliances who, coincidently, you are still allied too. In fact, aside from the NSO, do you have one treaty with an alliance who you were not treatied to before Karma? It doesn't look like you've reached out to try and change your image, rather you are preserving the old one by keeping to the same, reduced, circle of friends.

Don't get me wrong, I like your spirit but unfortunately find your explanation of your belief totally disconnected with any objective reality.
[/quote]


In that case better lock your doors and hide under your blankets because we are obviously coming for you.

[img]http://frankschilling.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/2007/03/27/scary_monster_2.png[/img]

Edited July 17, 2010 by silentkiller

[Branimir]

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']I look around these forums, I still see the same people posting. A few IOs might be gone, but I think it's safe to say that we still see Bilrow, Mary, Vlad, Moo and Sir Paul. We also tend to see most IOs as 'more of the same.' When you think of the ODN, I suspect you can't think of individual leaders, you think of them en mass, regardless of any changes that have been made.[/quote]
There is a complete overhaul of the leadership. From the leader it self (Emperor position) to the majority of the IO positions. Not only that some IOs are retired, some are no longer in the alliance. Can be found in some other ones, like your close ally MK.

Of course that due to the fact we have a strong core community, a lot of the names in the membership ranks and partially in the leadership hierarchy will be the same. To hold on to that, only boils down to not well thought out argument in consideration of the changes that did occur.

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']Nope, same old posting. It hasn't changed at all. I don't know if you have an OWF posting guide on your forums, but it really just seems like you're all trying to copy Vlad's (rather good) posting style[/quote]
Then you have no clue how NPOers posted not so long ago. How young of a nation are you?

Posting did change as did everything else, if for nothing else then for fundamental change of circumstance for the alliance and its members. For example, I cant really go around and say to people: "Do something about it." Now that is the line of people on "your side".

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']Most of those alliances were not close NPO supporters for most of their existence, not to the extent of TPF, Invicta, Legion etc. Alliances who, coincidently, you are still allied too. In fact, aside from the NSO, do you have one treaty with an alliance who you were not treatied to before Karma? It doesn't look like you've reached out to try and change your image, rather you are preserving the old one by keeping to the same, reduced, circle of friends. [/quote]
Legion? We held a grudge against them over years, stomped them seriously in one war. So they are a example of our supporters most of our existence?

Unfortunately again you show how little your argument is based on objective reality. Alliances I mentioned, to which we were allied for considerable amount of time, were there to fulfill their treaty obligations when we needed them. What you consider, how close they were to us, is a subjective ruling.

They did supported us and acted as our ally. Wasn't that the word you used?

In regards to reaching out, one can not reach if he is not welcomed to reach. What a dubious argument to use. Also because there are no treaties with some, does not mean there are no better relations. For example we did established nice communication with R&R, but unfortunately due to some nudging from some third parties treaty couldn't come out of that. Doesn't mean that we dont have a much better relations with them.

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']Don't get me wrong, I like your spirit but unfortunately find your explanation of your belief totally disconnected with any objective reality.[/quote]
I suppose you thought how repeating what I said would look clever, but unfortunately it just made you look more silly and disconnected as the point isn't in that line but rather in your arguments which are lacking by any serious standard showing that they are only fueled not by rationale but by irrational, or in other words negative emotions.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Branimir

[bart416]

You have no clue about the depth of the evil...

[Llednar Twem]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='17 July 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1279396397' post='2376149']
I'm sure you don't.
[/quote]

I'm sure you'd consider any opinion by our members as whining.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Llednar Twem

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Llednar Twem' date='18 July 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1279408993' post='2376402']
I'm sure you'd consider any opinion by our members as whining.
[/quote]

Nah he just loves to write one liners that probably seem funny to him but are the best examples of laziness and are rarely with any comedy value. But hey whatever helps him enjoy the game.

Edited July 17, 2010 by silentkiller

[jer]

[quote name='Banksy' date='17 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1279406961' post='2376361']
It doesn't look like you've reached out to try and change your image, rather you are preserving the old one by keeping to the same, reduced, circle of friends.[/quote]
The NPO is a unique, distinctive and hard-headed alliance, and I get the sense that the more pressure there is from the outside for them to change their culture to fit with how you'd like them to be, they more they will dig in and hold on to their identity for dear life. Okay, so they generally appear to be more cold and detached socially than other alliances, but I like that there is at least one alliance whose members are able to post regularly without the many try-hard attempts to be a part of the cool crowd that come with the posts of members of certain other alliances.

And sure, their government doesn't repeatedly court and suck up to your government like others around the world do, but that's hardly surprising given the alliance's recent history. If they're trying to reduce the chance of being played or betrayed again, having a group of dedicated and loyal allies surrounding them (no matter how small in number or strength) and sticking to their corner could be considered a better strategy than wading into false relationships with those who quite possibly still (yes, [i]still[/i]) hate their guts.

These characteristics are the things that make them who they are and, whether you are comfortable with them or otherwise, they provide at least some level of diversity on Bob. There's certainly no need to be afraid of their ways to such an extent that you are consumed by paranoia and feel compelled to demand changes in person and policy.

Obviously, I'm not a member of the NPO and I'm not anything like close enough to the alliance to speak with any certainty on their actual positions - if you want that, read Branimir. These are just my uninformed and purely speculative opinions on how things seem to me, only offered because the NPO is apparently becoming the focus of discussion once again (god knows why!).

Edited July 17, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Boyle]

They could be evil. I wouldn't mind though, since that'd make things more interesting. If anything, they are good at what they do, which is fine.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Branimir' date='18 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279408067' post='2376385']
There is a complete overhaul of the leadership. From the leader it self (Emperor position) to the majority of the IO positions. Not only that some IOs are retired, some are no longer in the alliance. Can be found in some other ones, like your close ally MK.

Of course that due to the fact we have a strong core community, a lot of the names in the membership ranks and partially in the leadership hierarchy will be the same. To hold on to that, only boils down to not well thought out argument in consideration of the changes that did occur.

Then you have no clue how NPOers posted not so long ago. How young of a nation are you?

Posting did change as did everything else, if for nothing else then for fundamental change of circumstance for the alliance and its members. For example, I cant really go around and say to people: "Do something about it." Now that is the line of people on "your side".

Legion? We held a grudge against them over years, stomped them seriously in one war. So they are a example of our supporters most of our existence?

Unfortunately again you show how little your argument is based on objective reality. Alliances I mentioned, to which we were allied for considerable amount of time, were there to fulfill their treaty obligations when we needed them. What you consider, how close they were to us, is a subjective ruling.

They did supported us and acted as our ally. Wasn't that the word you used?

In regards to reaching out, one can not reach if he is not welcomed to reach. What a dubious argument to use. Also because there are no treaties with some, does not mean there are no better relations. For example we did established nice communication with R&R, but unfortunately due to some nudging from some third parties treaty couldn't come out of that. Doesn't mean that we dont have a much better relations with them.

I suppose you thought how repeating what I said would look clever, but unfortunately it just made you look more silly and disconnected as the point isn't in that line but rather in your arguments which are lacking by any serious standard showing that they are only fueled not by rationale but by irrational, or in other words negative emotions.[/quote]
As you seem to like to flourish 'objectivity' about it's probably good to point out that you are probably not the most objective judge when comparing the NPO's pre and post Karma exploits. Objectivity is hardly has a place when it comes to someone's opinion. This is a topic about whether or not you are still 'the bad guys.' Determining who is 'bad' and who is 'good' requires a subjective test. There is no point in calling for objective viewpoints, then. I would be happy for you if you weren't 'the bad guys.'

But from an outsider's perspective, you haven't changed. You cite the reasons why you have changed as "now we're not in the position to say 'do something about it'" and "some IOs have left." These aren't examples of how the NPO are no longer the 'bad guys.' They just show that your position in the world has changed. If OO were sanctioned tomorrow, would people still respect them? Of course not. In the same way, people consider the NPO to be the 'bad guys' because their actions now don't look much different to how they did when they were in power.

Just because someone is in a position of power doesn't mean they are 'the bad guy.' For much of CN's history, the NPO were 'the bad guys' as well as being in power. It doesn't mean that everyone else smelt of roses. Just because of the position an alliance finds itself in doesn't mean the rest of the world considers them to be changed or sees them differently.

Your comments on your allies are also rather odd. RIA, RoK, FOK etc have changed their place. They are leaders in a new world. They have made obvious steps to move away from their hegemony past. If you started to sign treaties with them, then i'm sure people might think that you have changed. Therefore the fact that you are allied to TPF, Invicta etc, alliances who have not tried to change their position in the world, shows that you, too, have not changed. Steps towards R&R are a start but, as you said, it didn't work out. You can't expect everyone to start judging you in a positive manner because, suddenly, you 'tried reaching out, only it didn't work very well.'

So let's see, you have the same allies, the same faces and the same talk that made bob dub you 'the bad guys' a long time ago. Golly. Your position may have changed, but that's not something you tried to do, it's something beyond your control. I would be shocked if you weren't trying to rectify that. Until I see change from the NPO, then i'm still going to hold that opinion. And so are a lot of other people.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']As you seem to like to flourish 'objectivity' about it's probably good to point out that you are probably not the most objective judge when comparing the NPO's pre and post Karma exploits. [/quote]
Of course I am not completely objective, but then again nowhere did I claimed I was and nowhere did I claim that as my main argument versus yours.

I simply showed by stating some facts, that what you claim so absolutely in regards to the "same faces", "same posting", "same allies" and from there building your case how we are unchanged as an alliance---- simply can not hold true.

When we look at the cold facts that are provable, your claims turn out disconnected from the reality of things.
[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']But from an outsider's perspective, you haven't changed.[/quote]
No, that would be your opinion. What holds true from the outside perspective obviously vary as we can see from this very thread.
[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']You cite the reasons why you have changed as "now we're not in the position to say 'do something about it'" and "some IOs have left." These aren't examples of how the NPO are no longer the 'bad guys.' They just show that your position in the world has changed. If OO were sanctioned tomorrow, would people still respect them? Of course not. In the same way, people consider the NPO to be the 'bad guys' because their actions now don't look much different to how they did when they were in power.[/quote]
I simply am destroying every single argument you put forth in your post as backing to your claim. They are your arguments.

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']because someone is in a position of power doesn't mean they are 'the bad guy.' For much of CN's history, the NPO were 'the bad guys' as well as being in power. It doesn't mean that everyone else smelt of roses. Just because of the position an alliance finds itself in doesn't mean the rest of the world considers them to be changed or sees them differently.[/quote]
You believe we are bad. I get it. The way you argument that we are still bad, I just am shredding to pieces.

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']Your comments on your allies are also rather odd. RIA, RoK, FOK etc have changed their place. They are leaders in a new world. They have made obvious steps to move away from their hegemony past. If you started to sign treaties with them, then i'm sure people might think that you have changed. Therefore the fact that you are allied to TPF, Invicta etc, alliances who have not tried to change their position in the world, shows that you, too, have not changed. Steps towards R&R are a start but, as you said, it didn't work out. You can't expect everyone to start judging you in a positive manner because, suddenly, you 'tried reaching out, only it didn't work very well.' [/quote]
Seems you didn't quite understand my previous post. You can not reach out, if you are not welcomed. Its hard to "change positions" when you are a crucial point in keeping the current structure together by scaring people with the NPO bogyman.

You also ignore why some steps that were decently successful didn't work out. They weren't let to work. Get it?
[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279412151' post='2376446']So let's see, you have the same allies, the same faces and the same talk that made bob dub you 'the bad guys' a long time ago. Golly. Your position may have changed, but that's not something you tried to do, it's something beyond your control. I would be shocked if you weren't trying to rectify that. Until I see change from the NPO, then i'm still going to hold that opinion. And so are a lot of other people.[/quote]
In the end of your post, you did revert to your nonsense claim that is already showed wrong with stone cold facts of reality that is visible to any reasonably objective man.

We do not have the same allies. Some of our allies are now yours. We do not have the same faces. Leadership is changed.
We do not have the same talk. Obviously you are too young to know what our earlier talk sounded like to even compare me wagers from what I read from you.

You are so deeply entrenched into your nonsense way you present your belief only based on dislike, that now its just silly to look how you are all clamped down in that hole. I would say, give up while you are ahead but seems to late now.

You do not like us, that is fine. You think we are bad news. fine as well. You just need to give up on the way you want to "prove" that, by "same faces, posting, allies" silliness. It isn't working as its too detached from reality of things as I mentioned now couple of times and am boring my self with it as such will just end it now as I doubt you have anything else of substance to say.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Branimir

[Banksy]

Oh, I didn't realise this what how you had a debate.

"I destroy your argument."

That was easy.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Banksy' date='18 July 2010 - 03:19 AM' timestamp='1279415969' post='2376509']
Oh, I didn't realise this what how you had a debate.

"I destroy your argument."

That was easy.
[/quote]
Well its true, as you showed you have nothing with which to respond to my proving of your arguments disconnection with reality.
What can I say after such then what I did. While this was a blast and I enjoyed having fun with you, I think we did our course here.

[Venizelos]

delete NPO

[TrotskysRevenge]

Evil? I don't know about that, but that we are perceived as evil is true. Even when we were under terms and unable to really do anything, these boards were filled with threads about how we were going to "get back" at certain alliances and such. And now that we are out of terms, these boards are filled with threads such as this and posts in other threads that still stress how we haven't changed, we never will change and the world is still not safe from us. And what have we actually done? Nothing. Nada. Zip . Zilch.

Guess the world still needs a bogeyman.

[Master Holton]

[quote name='TrotskysRevenge' date='18 July 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1279439211' post='2376887']


Evil? I don't know about that, but that we are perceived as evil is true. Even when we were under terms and unable to really do anything, these boards were filled with threads about how we were going to "get back" at certain alliances and such. And now that we are out of terms, these boards are filled with threads such as this and posts in other threads that still stress how we haven't changed, we never will change and the world is still not safe from us. And what have we actually done? Nothing. Nada. Zip . Zilch.

Guess the world still needs a bogeyman.
[/quote]

NPO

[Stefano Palmieri]

Of course the NPO is still evil, if not that means we need a new "boogey man", and I for one, dont like change

Edited July 18, 2010 by Stefano Palmieri

[StevieG]

[quote name='Cortath' date='18 July 2010 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1279395415' post='2376130']
You're [i]very[/i] deluded, bigwoody, if you think we're openly gunning for you. I will not hide my contempt for you as an individual, but to think that we wish to do anything to your alliance smacks more of your own egotism than anything about my own alliance's desires.
[/quote]
You dont have the force to gun for us in game at the moment, and it probably would be a bad strategy to just run on an old feud you may have had in the past. Having said that, reading NPO posts which concern NPO-TORN, you do in fact attack us.

And no, I dont think NPO is the bad guy, until I can be otherwise convinced though, they are the enemy. But I guess they have to line up