North China Liberation Act OOC thread

[Triyun]

My troops are under orders to move forward until such point as they encounter resistance. This requires the enemy to have ground forces to provide such resistance, I RPed them engaging where they would encounter said resistance. Furthermore you are not taking into account satellite intelligence which while not 100 percent accurate would provide roughly an idea of what is what where in North China because North China is heavily deforested. In addition my ships surface to air missiles are kept in separate surface to air compartments than my VLS system for ship to ship and ship to surface missiles similar to soviet ship designs.

If [i]Keshav[/i] has an issue with my advancements he can talk to me about IRC for clarification. I do not really see why a non-combatant should be raising issues though.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Triyun

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Triyun' date='07 July 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1278518758' post='2362467']
If [i]Keshav[/i] has an issue with my advancements he can talk to me about IRC for clarification. I do not really see why a non-combatant should be raising issues though.
[/quote]

Because we are a community and as such we look after each other when people start RPing shenanigans.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Yawoo' date='07 July 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1278519852' post='2362479']
Because we are a community and as such we look after each other when people start RPing shenanigans.
[/quote]

This is a war between Triyun and Keshav, so unless Keshav brings up objections he is under no obligation to fix them.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Sargun' date='07 July 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1278521856' post='2362500']
This is a war between Triyun and Keshav, so unless Keshav brings up objections he is under no obligation to fix them.
[/quote]

That's not necessarily true. The community would not allow me to start using mechs against, say, Ty even if Ty failed to bring up an objection. Regardless though, I agree with the sentiment that Keshav needs to state the objections himself now that some have been called out by other members of the community.

[Sir Keshav IV]

Infact I did.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88427&view=findpost&p=2357826"]http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2357826[/url]

Cochin has every right to post on my behalf whether you like it or not. He has posted some points that seem logical enough, so I don't see how he doesn't have the right. That being said, I'm still waiting on what the GM's think.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Sir Keshav IV

[Triyun]

You did not object to the amphibious attack specifically which is what I am referring to here. In the same way that he cannot post for you IC, he cannot act as a proxy OOC.

Your objections and his seem to be along different lines. As this war is based on irregular rules rather than the standard rules it is based on the mutual consent of both players rather than CN RP in general, which a war between FSM and Ty would be presumably.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Triyun' date='07 July 2010 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1278524535' post='2362536']
You did not object to the amphibious attack specifically which is what I am referring to here. In the same way that he cannot post for you IC, he cannot act as a proxy OOC.

Your objections and his seem to be along different lines. As this war is based on irregular rules rather than the standard rules it is based on the mutual consent of both players rather than CN RP in general, which a war between FSM and Ty would be presumably.
[/quote]

He is pointing out faults in your post, I didn't know that was wrong.

While this is a war of mutual consent, that doesn't mean the general public lost their rights for discussion over the war.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Yawoo' date='07 July 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1278522391' post='2362512']
That's not necessarily true. The community would not allow me to start using mechs against, say, Ty even if Ty failed to bring up an objection. Regardless though, I agree with the sentiment that Keshav needs to state the objections himself now that some have been called out by other members of the community.
[/quote]
If Ty did not bring up an objection, either A) he's away or B) he has accepted it. The present guidelines only exist if the combatants cannot agree to alternate rules - if me and you were at war and I allowed you to RP Gundams as long as it was for our conflict only, then despite them being against the rules it would still happen.

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='07 July 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1278522648' post='2362516']
Infact I did.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88427&view=findpost&p=2357826"]http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2357826[/url]

Cochin has every right to post on my behalf whether you like it or not. He has posted some points that seem logical enough, so I don't see how he doesn't have the right. That being said, I'm still waiting on what the GM's think.
[/quote]
And both of those questions were answered.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Sargun' date='07 July 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1278524920' post='2362542']
If Ty did not bring up an objection, either A) he's away or B) he has accepted it. The present guidelines only exist if the combatants cannot agree to alternate rules - if me and you were at war and I allowed you to RP Gundams as long as it was for our conflict only, then despite them being against the rules it would still happen.


And both of those questions were answered.
[/quote]

On the questions: My problem is he used the exact map I gave him OOC in the invasion, which seems rather impossible. On the other hand I am waiting for GM clarification on the missiles.

Edit: If he can have my deployement map, Then I would certainly like yours as well.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Sir Keshav IV

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Triyun' date='06 July 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1278453550' post='2361534']
What do defenses have to do with firing them? I have not had a chance to type a second turn and you guys are making an assumption about how many I am going to fire.
[/quote]
The fact that a special defense has to be made for them (and that it exists ingame) in turn means it is special enough that at least general numbers with approximate position should be detailed before commencement of hostilities (aka not in the same post).

Edited July 7, 2010 by Subtleknifewielder

[The FSM]

[quote name='Sargun' date='07 July 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1278524920' post='2362542']
And both of those questions were answered.
[/quote]

If the questions had been answered satisfactorily I think everyone would have moved on already. Given that we're still talking about this, better explanation is required.

Edited July 7, 2010 by The Flying Scotsman

[Triyun]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='07 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278525227' post='2362547']
On the questions: My problem is he used the exact map I gave him OOC in the invasion, which seems rather impossible. On the other hand I am waiting for GM clarification on the missiles.

Edit: If he can have my deployement map, Then I would certainly like yours as well.
[/quote]

IRL enemy force positions are determined by satellite intelligence all the time. That is one of the reason that SATINT in the US is handled by the Department of Defense and not the other intel communities. In fact it was a major bone of contention in the '05 Intelligence Reform Act. If you dispute that you can hide division size units in heavily deforested areas including the massive amount of maintenance facilities, barracks, etc I would like to know about it. The location of military bases (aside from things like silos) are typically not classified and as far as I know you never have declared them to be classified or RPed hiding units since the war ended. As I have already stated several times within this thread, and I outlined in the post they weren't hit with 100 percent accuracy and in addition to that if you read my bombardments I targeted major things that are hard to hide like vehicle garages, barracks, and heavy and command units. I am not bombing infantry tents in the middle of forests. I'm bombing large heavy weapons facilities and depots.

Secondly I did put mine on the map as far as forces I have committed to this offensive. The units are marked out on the map at the end of my post along with the path of those units.

[king of cochin]

Surely it is only fair that you plot all your forces, even the ones not assigned to this warfare, as Keshav certainly seemed to have plotted all his forces? You should give him the opportunity to counter attack into your territory too!

[Triyun]

Two things. One the result of this war has been pre-planned with Keshav Cochin. Secondly I have an 800, 000 man army and 105 Squadron Airforce Cochin, along with a half million man allied army and a major allied air and sea force in the South. Those units are out of play at Keshav's request. They are not listed because they are not in play by his request.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Triyun' date='07 July 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1278530764' post='2362621']
Two things. One the result of this war has been pre-planned with Keshav Cochin. Secondly I have an 800, 000 man army and 105 Squadron Airforce Cochin, along with a half million man allied army and a major allied air and sea force in the South. Those units are out of play at Keshav's request. They are not listed because they are not in play by his request.
[/quote]


You agreed to fight this war out, that means we fight it out. If you have my whole plot map then I have yours. Simple as that.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Triyun' date='08 July 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1278530764' post='2362621']
Two things. One the result of this war has been pre-planned with Keshav Cochin. Secondly I have an 800, 000 man army and 105 Squadron Airforce Cochin, along with a half million man allied army and a major allied air and sea force in the South. Those units are out of play at Keshav's request. They are not listed because they are not in play by his request.
[/quote]

The preplanned aspect of the war had been questioned earlier itself, and I would not want to comment on that. Also your 800,000 RP army are anyway out of the pale as agreed by you two, you guys are RPing by IG max numbers, right? Also this [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88427&view=findpost&p=2362547"]post[/url] by Keshav explicitly seems to be asking for your entire deployment positions.

[Triyun]

First things first. 1700 cruise missiles is reasonable for the time my nation has existed. In 2004 the Navy awarded Raytheon a contract for the production of 2200 Tomahawks cruise missiles to be finished FY 2011. This is largely in peace time where the tomahawk has been sparsely used (in an insurgency war the Predator is a much more effective delivery system). The USC on the other hand has had a build up directed towards major military powers. The Tomahawk is just a single missile system within the US's arsenal of cruise missiles. 2000 were delivered between May 2004 and February 2010. My country has been in existence and over 8000 infrastructure for 3 years. So its pretty fair to say that I've had fairly strong economy power. .5 * 2000= 1000 cruise missiles. This is for a [i]single[/i] weapon systems. Nobody uses a single type of cruise missile. It can fairly be assumed that I would develop these along with short range tactical ballistic missiles would reach 1300 warheads plus 400 decoys minimum.

In regards to your point, I'll be discussing that with Keshav privately.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Triyun

[king of cochin]

Does it really matter how long your IG nation has existed? In terms of CNRP , your nation was founded on 16 April, 2010, which barely makes it 3 years old if you consider 1 month= 1 RP year. Whereas Keshav has been RPing as PRC/AI for close to 15 months = 15 RP years.

[Triyun]

My nation actually was founded slightly earlier, it changed its name on April 16th. My point is that from the moment it existed it was a lower 8000 infrastructure nation. Now its a 9700 infrastructure nation Thats just under 3 years old. Thats why I used the 3 year mark. 3 years times .5 of the 2000 number is 1000 missiles. Keshav's length of existence is not in anyway related to my stats. I never once mentioned any time over 3 years, I am simply saying that I am a 3 year old nation which started with an in game level of 8000 infrastructure. This is of course unless your claiming that a nation's RP infrastructure is not equal to its CN infrastructure abilities. If this was the case than that is a radical change in the rules which has never been codified.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Triyun

[iamthey]

About this missiles, this entire argument is completely pointless and stupid for several reasons.

1) Whether he fired 400 missiles, 800 (a number keshav said he would be fine with), 1300, or 5000 makes very little actual difference in terms of RP. Neither combatant has developed their nation to a point of objective detail where the impact of 1 missile or any group of them can actually be discerned. While we can say 'a lot of missiles does damage' beyond that the objective difference between 800-1300 missiles can hardly be felt or noticed. While in Real life there would be a huge difference, in the context of this RP there is virtually no impact. So to see this entire war ground to a stand still because of this is really just comical. The point is this is just missile spam, the same as has been seen in every CNRP war. So he fired 1.3k missiles in a day, alright how is that any different than firing 300 or 500 missiles every day for a week?

2) As has been pointed out missile destroyers have hundreds of missiles on them. In triyun's case he has a fully developed navy with many naval missile bays, all of whom I would assume are fully stocked. I have seen few people in this RP actually role play the individual production of missiles to load onto their ships, just the same as I have never seen someone buy bolts or metal to construct ships out of. Somethings are just assumed as it would be mundane or boring to RP at such a level of trivial detail.

3) The real question isn't if he could fire any of these it more goes back to if a combination of myself, lavo and triyun could produce them, since all three of us are the claimed source of these weapons. While I cannot speak for triyun or lavo, my military industrial complex is extensively developed as is my Ministry of War. I intentionally refer to its extensive and sprawling bureaucracy and dedicate significant financial resources to the development of my military as well as my military industries. Moreover, I just fought a large war with Tahoe during which there would have been a boom in the war industries as military hardware would have been constantly produced to supply the front lines, meaning for the last three or four in game years triyun's additional contracts would have easily been met both with the existing production facilities as well as with the surplus equipment post war.

In a specific case, if we are just dealing with one nation, according to Federation of American Scientists, 500 tomahawks could be built in 2 1/2 years at the cost of 40 million as well as restarting the production line with 1990s efficiency levels, and that is at a normal non war pace. So the USC and myself and lavo all first world nations, theoretically with the capabilities of a well developed nation in 2020, could have each serviced the production of missiles at a bit over that rate. Given 3 in game years and the fact that we are dealing with three nations with just this rate alone that should have been enough resources to produce 4.5k missiles at US 1990's non war paced levels. Given the fact that the reality is very different, one supplier being a super power, one having elevated war level production and a surplus of supplies to move, and the third taking over the existing war industries of keshav as well as having several years to develop their own, three years should have been more than enough time to produce the needed missiles.

So my answer to the missiles question would be one who cares its just typical CNRP missile spam being used in new and 'creative' as well as 'exciting' way, lets move on and not waste a week arguing about it, and two it is very possible that those missiles could have been produced anyway.

Edited July 7, 2010 by iamthey

[Yawoo]

[quote name='iamthey' date='07 July 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1278537447' post='2362719']
About this missiles, this entire argument is completely pointless and stupid for several reasons.

1) Whether he fired 400 missiles, 800 (a number keshav said he would be fine with), 1300, or 5000 makes very little actual difference in terms of RP. Neither combatant has developed their nation to a point of objective detail where the impact of 1 missile or any group of them can actually be discerned. While we can say 'a lot of missiles does damage' beyond that the objective difference between 800-1300 missiles can hardly be felt or noticed. While in Real life there would be a huge difference, in the context of this RP there is virtually no impact. So to see this entire war ground to a stand still because of this is really just comical. The point is this is just missile spam, the same as has been seen in every CNRP war. So he fired 1.3k missiles in a day, alright how is that any different than firing 300 or 500 missiles every day for a week?

[b]It's different because perhaps Keshav wants to RP the damage, and 1.3k is a lot more damage than 800.[/b]

2) As has been pointed out missile destroyers have hundreds of missiles on them. In triyun's case he has a fully developed navy with many naval missile bays, all of whom I would assume are fully stocked. I have seen few people in this RP actually role play the individual production of missiles to load onto their ships, just the same as I have never seen someone buy bolts or metal to construct ships out of. Somethings are just assumed as it would be mundane or boring to RP at such a level of trivial detail.

[b]As has been pointed out already, there are hundreds of missiles on ships, but the missiles are a combination not just ship to ground. So, while some things are assumed, this can not be assumed and there should be an RP backing where his full navy's missiles were replaced with ship to ground instead of the usual combination of missiles.[/b]

3) The real question isn't if he could fire any of these it more goes back to if a combination of myself, lavo and triyun could produce them, since all three of us are the claimed source of these weapons. While I cannot speak for triyun or lavo, my military industrial complex is extensively developed as is my Ministry of War. I intentionally refer to its extensive and sprawling bureaucracy and dedicate significant financial resources to the development of my military as well as my military industries. Moreover, I just fought a large war with Tahoe during which there would have been a boom in the war industries as military hardware would have been constantly produced to supply the front lines, meaning for the last three or four in game years triyun's additional contracts would have easily been met both with the existing production facilities as well as with the surplus equipment post war.

In a specific case, if we are just dealing with one nation, according to Federation of American Scientists, 500 tomahawks could be built in 2 1/2 years at the cost of 40 million as well as restarting the production line with 1990s efficiency levels, and that is at a normal non war pace. So the USC and myself and lavo all first world nations, theoretically with the capabilities of a well developed nation in 2020, could have each serviced the production of missiles at a bit over that rate. Given 3 in game years and the fact that we are dealing with three nations with just this rate alone that should have been enough resources to produce 4.5k missiles at US 1990's non war paced levels. Given the fact that the reality is very different, one supplier being a super power, one having elevated war level production and a surplus of supplies to move, and the third taking over the existing war industries of keshav as well as having several years to develop their own, three years should have been more than enough time to produce the needed missiles.

So my answer to the missiles question would be one who cares its just typical CNRP missile spam being used in new and 'creative' as well as 'exciting' way, lets move on and not waste a week arguing about it, and two it is very possible that those missiles could have been produced anyway.


[b]Want to link us to where you and Lavo increased production and shipping to the USC? Also, where the USC increased their purchasing of the missiles? Just because you could do it, doesn't mean that it has been done in RP. Furthermore, where was the RP over the last 3 CNRP years where the USC has begun creation of the missiles?[/b]
[/quote]

[Sargun II]

Nobody has ever needed to specifically produce cruise missiles. As these are not bio/chem/nuclear/fuel-air burst or any other kind that would be limited to 50, he isn't required to RP the development or even creation of them. Since they're normal missiles, they would fall under the assumed rule.

[Triyun]

USC ordered multiple types of guided missiles, this included surface to surface ones shortly after its DoE from the Rebel Army. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=84133&view=findpost&p=2257564

We ordered missiles from Iamthey here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68008&view=findpost&p=2336379

Sargun is absolutely correct, cruise missiles are a standard ammunition type in a modern arsenal, as Iamthey has said, its completely fair to assume you have ammo for the weapon systems you have, especially those in game.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Triyun

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Triyun' date='07 July 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1278557159' post='2363035']
USC ordered multiple types of guided missiles, this included surface to surface ones shortly after its DoE from the Rebel Army. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=84133&view=findpost&p=2257564

We ordered missiles from Iamthey here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68008&view=findpost&p=2336379

Sargun is absolutely correct, cruise missiles are a standard ammunition type in a modern arsenal, as Iamthey has said, its completely fair to assume you have ammo for the weapon systems you have, especially those in game.
[/quote]
I'm not contesting the fact you ordered the missiles, I'm contesting the fact that IaT is assuming you automatically increased your orders from the standard rate because of his post-war increase in stock. I just think it is silly to automatically assume you order X amount more just because something happens in RP, even though you didn't make an RP response to it. Now, I'm not picking on you about it, but you are the most recent example of this happening. While I understand this may be under the assumed rules, what happened to RPing realistically? You may have ammo for a first salvo, but replacing all that ammunition and moving it to the front? That's going to take time (because there was no RP backing it up)- which has been my point this whole thread. Now, if everyone wants to assume you automatically have ammo to replace everything you fire with and don't need to move it around to the front, then that's just silly but I will accept and note it for my future wars.

[Triyun]

Yawoo why don't you wait and see what people post in their second post before you criticize the second post