North China Liberation Act OOC thread

[Sir Keshav IV]

1) I find 1300 Missiles being fired at once being eh a bit to much. What do others think?


[quote][color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif]Phony War:

A massive ground based missile barrage was unleashed; its targets were enemy air base, air defense, missile defense, and radar sites across the North. The enemy’s radar would light up with the sheer intensity of the attack and amount of missiles deployed, the force of such a barrage would be designed to overwhelm the enemy missile defense force. However, in truth the initial barrage while impressive was only 15 percent filled with warheads, many were dud missiles. Nobody would be able to detect this until warheads started falling forcing the enemy to react and deploy their interceptors, thus forcing the enemy to use up missile interceptors and making the USC's main attack more effective..[/quote][/font][/color]
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[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"][color="#5D5D5D"][quote]Their missiles would be reserved for a strike against the two mechanized infantry brigades in Beijing and Tianjin as well as the heavy armor division deployed in Hebei. These missiles would be equipped with high explosive warheads and the targets would be enemy command units, ammo, supply, and forward heavy units, which would spearhead the counter assault. This would be supplemented by an assault from three frigates, which would concentrate their missiles on the enemy armored division. This would maximize the assault on the enemy’s strongest asset in the area.[/quote][/color][/font]
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2) I also have a problem on how he know's where all my defensive units are placed.

[color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif][quote]The remaining two cruisers concentrated their fire on the enemy mechanized brigades in Anhui; they targeted the enemy’s vehicles garages and convoys. The seven destroyers unleashed an assault on Xian. Firing long-range missiles, they targeted the armored and artillery forces in Xian and the surrounding area. Their objective was to hit as much of the enemies ammunition and heavy hardware as possible with still maximizing the damage they could do to the enemy forces their. The six Pacific Wolf Carriers also would launch their vertical missiles, their targets would be enemy air defense sites and airfields in Shaanxi and Shanxi, aiming to maximize the damage to air defenses in the area. Finally, the USC’s seven missile submarine force would unleash its own strike, its targets would be enemy airbases, they would target hangars and control towers with long range missiles, aiming to destroy the enemies ability to deploy air force units, and disrupt the ability to continue maintenance and deployment for enemy air units that were already in the field.[/quote][/font][/color]
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[color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif][quote][/font][/color][color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif]This would be supplemented by a flight of Tu-160 S four total flying over Hunan province. They would take advantage of the heavy anti-air ground emplacements and missile defenses as well as rear deployed AWACs providing additional jamming of enemy systems. These Tu-160Ss each had 20 anti-ground long-range missiles attached to their outer package, which would be unleashed, with 40 going against the armored division in Xian and the other 40 going against the armored division in Henan. The targets would be enemy command and control and supply units, aiming to make the units ability to redeploy or fight sustained action negligible.[/quote][/font][/color]
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[color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif]These are just few examples from the original attack. [/font][/color]
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Edited July 2, 2010 by Sir Keshav IV

[kitex]

Both of those are a serious problem.

1. To make just one CM IRL, it costs the US government several million dollars, thus his amount of CMs are too much. If he did 50 or 100 it'd be fine.

2. He should have absolutely no idea where your defensive forces are unless he has a UAV which is going over the area and that UAV is giving live video feed to soldiers on the ground (or he RPs a recon force).

[Yawoo]

I would consider 1300 missiles launched at once, even for a first world nation, to be too much. I, myself, have RP'd launching 300 missiles over an hour's time from the mainland and consider that a fairly realistic approach. At 1300 missiles launched, there shouldn't be a ton more in reserve so the U.S.C. would have to start RPing production if it wanted to keep ordinances flowing to the front (there should be a delay between beginning of production and arrival to make it more realistic). For examples on missile usage I would direct people to the use of U.S. cruise missiles during operation Desert Storm.

As far as knowing where your troops and positions are, then you must realize that the U.S.C. has satellites and can use those, so large concentration of troops would be easily spotted. Now, saying that, I do have issues with where he targets your enemy command units and ammo. These two things would be extremely hard to differentiate between them and regular units and supply without a spy roll to determine what's what.

[king of cochin]

Satellite recon does not have 100% accuracy in plotting out troop dispositions of a hunkered down defensive force, optically camouflaged in a rough terrain. Some heavy units showing movement patterns and giving off thermal signatures can be plotted, but not everything, certainly not in the manner described.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Good idea having an OOC thread fvor the war...

So far I have no issues that haven't already been stated.

[Malatose]

[quote name='kitex' date='02 July 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1278095458' post='2357915']
Both of those are a serious problem.

1. To make just one CM IRL, it costs the US government several million dollars, thus his amount of CMs are too much. If he did 50 or 100 it'd be fine.

2. He should have absolutely no idea where your defensive forces are unless he has a UAV which is going over the area and that UAV is giving live video feed to soldiers on the ground (or he RPs a recon force).
[/quote]

The average cost of a U.S Cruise Missile (TLAM) is $569,000

Source: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2

Also, in regards to Cruise Missiles, people have to remember that China has over 1,500 pointed at Taiwan. Also, it was estimated that if the Cold War would have gone hot, the USSR could have launched well over 2,000 cruise missiles in the first five minutes of the conflict.

[quote]China pointing about 1,500 missiles at Taiwan: Taipei official

by Staff Writers

Taipei (AFP) Oct 19, 2009

China now has about 1,500 missiles pointed at Taiwan, with no signs that the build-up is about to stop anytime soon, a spokesman for the island's government said Monday.

The figure includes short-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles, the defence ministry spokesman told AFP on condition of anonymity.

"The number of missiles has been rising. We don't know when it will stop increasing," said the spokesman.

He was speaking ahead of the release Tuesday of the ministry's annual report, which will include an updated estimate of China's military capabilities.

In its National Defence Report for 2008, the Taiwan government estimated that China had deployed 1,300 missiles in the area near the island.[/quote]

Source: http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3299901

Edited July 3, 2010 by Malatose

[kitex]

[quote name='Malatose' date='03 July 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1278174946' post='2358730']
The average cost of a U.S Cruise Missile (TLAM) is $569,000

Source: [url="http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2"]http://www.navy.mil/...0&tid=1300&ct=2[/url]

Also, in regards to Cruise Missiles, people have to remember that China has over 1,500 pointed at Taiwan. Also, it was estimated that if the Cold War would have gone hot, the USSR could have launched well over 2,000 cruise missiles in the first five minutes of the conflict.



Source: [url="http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3299901"]http://news.in.msn.c...umentid=3299901[/url]
[/quote]

My bad, I was probably getting it mixed up with either the Tomahawk Cruise missile or the Trident missile.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Malatose' date='03 July 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1278174946' post='2358730']
Also, in regards to Cruise Missiles, people have to remember that China has over 1,500 pointed at Taiwan. Also, it was estimated that if the Cold War would have gone hot, the USSR could have launched well over 2,000 cruise missiles in the first five minutes of the conflict.



Source: http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3299901
[/quote]

In that case we should also take into consideration the fact that during Cold War both USA and USSR had literally thousands of missiles, nuclear warheads with thousands of mega tonnage of destruction capability. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_arms_race"]Link[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png"]Link[/url]

Do we permit that in CNRP? I think not.

It does not matter what number of missiles PRC has directed towards Taiwan, this is CNRP. Rules are applicable for everyone.

[hawk11]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1278176362' post='2358744']
In that case we should also take into consideration the fact that during Cold War both USA and USSR had literally thousands of missiles, nuclear warheads with thousands of mega tonnage of destruction capability. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_arms_race"]Link[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png"]Link[/url]

Do we permit that in CNRP? I think not.

It does not matter what number of missiles PRC has directed towards Taiwan, this is CNRP. Rules are applicable for everyone.
[/quote]

What? Our cruise missile rules are based off common sense, and common sense is dictated by realism. Realistically, cruise missiles are cheap and deployed in large numbers. If anything, you just made a strong case for allowing nuclear warheads to be mounted on cruise missiles, which I now support.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='hawk_11' date='03 July 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1278176843' post='2358750']
What? Our cruise missile rules are based off common sense, and common sense is dictated by realism. Realistically, cruise missiles are cheap and deployed in large numbers. If anything, you just made a strong case for allowing nuclear warheads to be mounted on cruise missiles, which I now support.
[/quote]

Of course cruise missiles ought to be used for nuclear weapons delivery just as bombers, ballistic missiles, suitcases and as recently rogue freighters, again as per existing rules.

So are large number of cruise missiles permitted for warfare?

/me goes off to ready arsenals of 1000 missiles each per 100 kilometers of border area,

[hawk11]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1278177128' post='2358752']
Of course cruise missiles ought to be used for nuclear weapons delivery just as bombers, ballistic missiles, suitcases and as recently rogue freighters, again as per existing rules.

So are large number of cruise missiles permitted for warfare?

/me goes off to ready arsenals of 1000 missiles each per 100 kilometers of border area,
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure why you're trying to sound like this is shocking, and I'm supposed to go back on what I'm saying. Go nuts.

[Malatose]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1278176362' post='2358744']
In that case we should also take into consideration the fact that during Cold War both USA and USSR had literally thousands of missiles, nuclear warheads with thousands of mega tonnage of destruction capability. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_arms_race"]Link[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png"]Link[/url]

Do we permit that in CNRP? I think not.

It does not matter what number of missiles PRC has directed towards Taiwan, this is CNRP. Rules are applicable for everyone.
[/quote]

Yeah, we do actually. With 500KT, 1-9 megaton nukes and neutron bombs.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Malatose

[king of cochin]

Oh, so we do have 11,000 warheads with total megatonnages of 4000~7000 etc? Strange, I thought our maximum megatonnage was 12.5 Megatons without WRC and 250 Megatons with WRC.

Or have the rules been changed?

[king of cochin]

[quote name='hawk_11' date='03 July 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1278177265' post='2358754']
I'm not quite sure why you're trying to sound like this is shocking, and I'm supposed to go back on what I'm saying. Go nuts.
[/quote]

I am surprised that you thought I was being confrontational, I was just getting clarification about your point of view. So please, relax, ! Also I am already nuts, even get the shock treatment occasionally. Gets me properly roasted,

[iamthey]

There isn't really a limit on how many cruise missiles you can fire, there never really has been. The limitations are more or less based on RL, its up to both parties to prove that what they are doing is both reasonable as well as within the constraints of reality, and the facts will be our arbiter.

While the game statistic establishes a limit on how many nuclear weapons you can fire, it does not establish an applicable limit on how many cruise missiles one can use. Keep in mind also that triyun's burden is to destroy Keshav's civilian and military infrastructure, this infrastructure is assumed to be on the scale of a RL nation. If you are going to hamstring one RPer with various OOC limitations on their weapons then the relative amount of damage he should have to do to keshav should also be lowered to scale. meaning 1 CM should be able to do the damage of 100 CM's or something like that. Obviously this is unreasonable, but so is arbitrarily limiting his arsenal on the basis of 'this is cnrp'.

Edited July 3, 2010 by iamthey

[hawk11]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1278178546' post='2358763']
I am surprised that you thought I was being confrontational, I was just getting clarification about your point of view. So please, relax, ! Also I am already nuts, even get the shock treatment occasionally. Gets me properly roasted,
[/quote]

Actually, I find most people who load their posts up with emoticons are purposefully trying to convey an emotion, and it usually falls flat.

[Lynneth]

[quote name='iamthey' date='03 July 2010 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1278178738' post='2358764']
There isn't really a limit on how many cruise missiles you can fire, there never really has been. The limitations are more or less based on RL, its up to both parties to prove that what they are doing is both reasonable as well as within the constraints of reality, and the facts will be our arbiter.

While the game statistic establishes a limit on how many nuclear weapons you can fire, it does not establish an applicable limit on how many cruise missiles one can use. Keep in mind also that triyun's burden is to destroy Keshav's civilian and military infrastructure, this infrastructure is assumed to be on the scale of a RL nation. If you are going to hamstring one RPer with various OOC limitations on their weapons then the relative amount of damage he should have to do to keshav should also be lowered to scale. meaning 1 CM should be able to do the damage of 100 CM's or something like that. Obviously this is unreasonable, but so is arbitrarily limiting his arsenal on the basis of 'this is cnrp'.
[/quote]
With Keshav being in Bothamode - and thus limited to 50 CMs - isn't it unfair for him to be attacked by 1,000+ CMs from Triyun?

[iamthey]

Keshav is also in theory only allowed to fire two CM's a day... thats a little extreme.

Not sure how we resolve this.

[king of cochin]

Since both sides had agreed to RP by their IG stats and efficiencies given by wonders/improvement/tech etc, perhaps they both ought to RP with two cruise missile strikes a day. This would essentially mean that as in an IG war, cruise missile strikes would be essentially as much of non entities as they are now at high NS warfare. Cruise Missile strikes after all contribute only to low level attrition, with greater attrition possible by air attacks, which for these two players are evenly matched out due to technological superiority of one and techtrade+wonders for the other. Even nuclear attacks is just a higher mode of attrition warfare, again keshav's tech and triyun's wonders almost equalizing the capabilities of either.

In IG war ultimate victory and decisiveness is imparted by ground attacks and so should it be here. The cruise missiles, the fighter bombers, all the high tech pow pow stuff being RPd would count to naught and the war would have to be slugged in the old fashion way on the ground.

[Malatose]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1278183092' post='2358822']
Since both sides had agreed to RP by their IG stats and efficiencies given by wonders/improvement/tech etc, perhaps they both ought to RP with two cruise missile strikes a day. This would essentially mean that as in an IG war, cruise missile strikes would be essentially as much of non entities as they are now at high NS warfare. Cruise Missile strikes after all contribute only to low level attrition, with greater attrition possible by air attacks, which for these two players are evenly matched out due to technological superiority of one and techtrade+wonders for the other. Even nuclear attacks is just a higher mode of attrition warfare, again keshav's tech and triyun's wonders almost equalizing the capabilities of either.

In IG war ultimate victory and decisiveness is imparted by ground attacks and so should it be here. The cruise missiles, the fighter bombers, all the high tech pow pow stuff being RPd would count to naught and the war would have to be slugged in the old fashion way on the ground.
[/quote]

I guess you missed the TOP - CnG war.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='03 July 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1278183092' post='2358822']
Since both sides had agreed to RP by their IG stats and efficiencies given by wonders/improvement/tech etc, perhaps they both ought to RP with two cruise missile strikes a day. This would essentially mean that as in an IG war, cruise missile strikes would be essentially as much of non entities as they are now at high NS warfare. Cruise Missile strikes after all contribute only to low level attrition, with greater attrition possible by air attacks, which for these two players are evenly matched out due to technological superiority of one and techtrade+wonders for the other. Even nuclear attacks is just a higher mode of attrition warfare, again keshav's tech and triyun's wonders almost equalizing the capabilities of either.

In IG war ultimate victory and decisiveness is imparted by ground attacks and so should it be here. The cruise missiles, the fighter bombers, all the high tech pow pow stuff being RPd would count to naught and the war would have to be slugged in the old fashion way on the ground.
[/quote]

Sorry but have you ever fought a nuclear war? The IG system is very different from an actual war, and frankly it would be ridiculous to RP exactly following the IG system.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Malatose' date='03 July 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1278174946' post='2358730']
The average cost of a U.S Cruise Missile (TLAM) is $569,000

Source: [url="http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2"]http://www.navy.mil/...0&tid=1300&ct=2[/url]

[b]Also, in regards to Cruise Missiles, people have to remember that China has over 1,500 pointed at Taiwan. Also, it was estimated that if the Cold War would have gone hot, the USSR could have launched well over 2,000 cruise missiles in the first five minutes of the conflict.
[/b][/quote]
Yes...and then their stockpiles would have been severely depleted, and it would have been a LONG time before they could launch such missiles in any great numbers again.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Subtleknifewielder

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='03 July 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1278195123' post='2359019']
Yes...and then their stockpiles would have been severely depleted, and it would have been a LONG time before they could launch such missiles in any great numbers again.
[/quote]

Did Triyun try to launch 2,000 missiles every twenty minutes?

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='iamthey' date='03 July 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1278182565' post='2358812']
Keshav is also in theory only allowed to fire two CM's a day... thats a little extreme.

Not sure how we resolve this.
[/quote]


The point is Triyun and I have agreed to shoot CM's based of RL limitations and not IG because that is well just dumb

But shooting 1700 Missiles in the space of what 10 minutes just seems a little extreme and thats why I brought it up. Given the time scale Triyun has had to build such a large stockpile itself seems impossible.

[The FSM]

[quote name='Malatose' date='03 July 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1278174946' post='2358730']
The average cost of a U.S Cruise Missile (TLAM) is $569,000

Source: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2

Also, in regards to Cruise Missiles, people have to remember that China has over 1,500 pointed at Taiwan. Also, it was estimated that if the Cold War would have gone hot, the USSR could have launched well over 2,000 cruise missiles in the first five minutes of the conflict.



Source: http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3299901
[/quote]

In the case of China, they have been steadily building up the number of weapons facing Taiwan over the previous 10-20 years. After 10-20 years of preparation, yes the Chinese could fire up to 1,500 missiles at Taiwan at once. In the case of the USSR, they built up that 2,000 missile capacity over a number of decades. At the start of the US-USSR Arms Race neither party would have been able to fire 2,000 missiles at once at each other, after 40 years or however many, they could fire that many missiles because they had been stockpiling.

If China were to go to war with Mongolia, they would not be able to fire 1,500 missiles at them all at once because they havent stockpiled missiles there. When the US went to war with Iraq we did not have hundreds of missiles ready to fire at them at the drop of a hat. In both instances missiles and other weapons would have to be moved into place and stockpiled before they could be used.

If Triyun has RP'ed stockpiling all these missiles and aiming them at the AI border before hand (like China in RL has done) then by all means he can launch 1300 missiles all at once. If he hasnt RP'ed stockpiling those munitions and aiming them at the AI border then it would be physically and logistically impossible for him to fire that many missiles, all at once, at Articuno.