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[quote name='Omniscient1' date='25 June 2010 - 03:20 AM' timestamp='1277432386' post='2349429']
so if GOD was attacked would you expect CnG to come in? or would you tell everyone but MK not to declare?
[/quote]


The difference is Xiph isn't going to dick around on the OWF looking for a fight with an alliance 30 times the size of GOD. Any threat he makes he will back up and is serious. Zeke seems to try to instigate issues with TIO and Athens for no reason other than personal dislike of them. It makes it look like he is wielding his MD treaties like a club. It is abusive of the trust his allies place in him from my point of view.

Athens isn't blameless in it, but Zeke asks for it.

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Thank you for your post Ezequiel, your apology is sufficient in my view. I'm glad you actually posted this. Although I would have rathered you put in the other logs in question, several people do not seem to know the logs which angered me the most.

Trekkie, I'm rather disappointed in your apology though. I do not feel any sort of sincerity from it.

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='25 June 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1277429535' post='2349344']
Skippy has no sense of humor, nor do any of his friends [some of whom I know]. $%&@ you guys for participating in his immaturity, I thought so much better of you.
[/quote]
You clearly do not know me.

[quote name='pezstar' date='25 June 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1277429267' post='2349332']
This is one of the stupidest things I've seen in my years here. To threaten an alliance with war because of the equivalent of "YOU INSULTED MY MOTHER" is completely absurd and childish. TIO should be ashamed of themselves.
[/quote]

Sorry pez, but its not just that simple.



[ooc]I'll read the rest of this thread later [/ooc]

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This is a ridiculous situation to have gotten yourself into. Yes, a certain OO leader crossed a line, but TIO are being just as childish by turning this into an IC form of alliance punishment.

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[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='24 June 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1277432322' post='2349428']
Striking how you are defending one action by sarcastically deriding another action which was "wrong" for similar reasons. This whole situation just sounds like another "enforcing community standards". Oh gee, where have I heard that one before? Thats right, I remember, Grub mentioned something about that, right?!?!

Wait.... didn't Grub try and do something about enforcing community standards before the Cluster%#&! war? Oh! Thats right! I remember now! Something to do with Athens raiding some alliance! Holy !@#$! I never thought I would see the day when Londo was "enforcing community standards"! Gee I guess people do really change! What do they say about power again...?
[/quote]
Power is powerful my good friend. Does Londo care about Community Standards? Or does Londo care that both TIO and their protectors are allied to Athens? I'm not defending the actions of TIO, merely pointing out a fun fact.

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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1277433087' post='2349450']



Sorry pez, but its not just that simple.



[/quote]

Yes. It is. You came to STA and told us what your grievances were and discussed the situation with us. So did other folks who were trying to ascertain our position, as well as keep us informed of the upcoming war. We've seen the logs. You threatened OO because they made fun of your mother. Plain and simple.

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[quote name='commander thrawn' date='25 June 2010 - 03:30 AM' timestamp='1277433038' post='2349449']
The difference is Xiph isn't going to dick around on the OWF looking for a fight with an alliance 30 times the size of GOD. Any threat he makes he will back up and is serious. Zeke seems to try to instigate issues with TIO and Athens for no reason other than personal dislike of them. It makes it look like he is wielding his MD treaties like a club. It is abusive of the trust his allies place in him from my point of view.

Athens isn't blameless in it, but Zeke asks for it.
[/quote]

Believe me Thrawn I know. I just don't see faulting Zeke for using strategy.

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[quote name='Banksy' date='25 June 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1277433133' post='2349451']
This is a ridiculous situation to have gotten yourself into. Yes, a certain OO leader crossed a line, but TIO are being just as childish by turning this into an IC form of alliance punishment.
[/quote]
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.

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[quote name='commander thrawn' date='24 June 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1277433038' post='2349449']
The difference is Xiph isn't going to dick around on the OWF looking for a fight with an alliance 30 times the size of GOD. Any threat he makes he will back up and is serious. Zeke seems to try to instigate issues with TIO and Athens for no reason other than personal dislike of them. It makes it look like he is wielding his MD treaties like a club. It is abusive of the trust his allies place in him from my point of view.

Athens isn't blameless in it, but Zeke asks for it.
[/quote]

Are you joking? TIO came into their IRC chan to make trouble not the other way around, TIO took OO to the table for talks of war over this !@#$, and yes no joke there was a talk over lol cancer mom. Just who is wielding their MD treaties like a club? It sure as hell isn’t OO.

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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1277433360' post='2349457']
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.
[/quote]


...Negotiations?


Get over yourself.

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[quote name='pezstar' date='25 June 2010 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1277433297' post='2349455']
Yes. It is. You came to STA and told us what your grievances were and discussed the situation with us. So did other folks who were trying to ascertain our position, as well as keep us informed of the upcoming war. We've seen the logs. You threatened OO because they made fun of your mother. Plain and simple.
[/quote]
I made STA aware out of pure like for STA. If this expanded, I didn't want you caught unaware. Is that a crime?

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[quote name='Skippy' date='25 June 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1277433360' post='2349457']
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.
[/quote]
It's not a matter for alliance negotiations. It's an OOC issue which has no place in 'negotiations.'

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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1277433360' post='2349457']
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.
[/quote]

Frankly, the fact that you demanded an apology and started an international incident over someone saying "lol" to your mother having cancer should embarrass you. But it doesn't. Also, negotiations? Really? The fact that there were actually alliances willing to back you up on this makes me hang my head.

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[quote name='Banksy' date='25 June 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1277433133' post='2349451']
This is a ridiculous situation to have gotten yourself into. Yes, a certain OO leader crossed a line, but TIO are being just as childish by turning this into an IC form of alliance punishment.
[/quote]
I wouldn't even go as far as to say that he crossed the line at all, from the logs we've seen so far. Skippy and some cronies round on this one guy in his channel and start baiting him, the guy plays along for a while, lawling and loling to show he's not bothered, before banning them when they get too stupid. Seems fair and is probably what I'd have done in the same situation too.

To try and turn someone making a your mum joke and lol'ing at a bunch of guys acting like dicks into a serious insult about cancer, using your own mother in real life as the pawn, is the thing that I find most distasteful here.

Edited by Aimee Mann
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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1277433467' post='2349462']
I made STA aware out of pure like for STA. If this expanded, I didn't want you caught unaware. Is that a crime?
[/quote]

That's got nothing to do with what I responded to, and you are trying to deflect. You tried to say it wasn't about someone doing the equivalent of insulting your mother. I said it was, and provided evidence as to why I feel confident in calling you a liar. Now you are trying to deflect from that by saying that you were just telling STA about it because you like us. It's completely unrelated.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' date='25 June 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1277433310' post='2349456']
Believe me Thrawn I know. I just don't see faulting Zeke for using strategy.
[/quote]


Strategy until they finally piss off their allies.

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[quote name='commander thrawn' date='25 June 2010 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1277433877' post='2349474']
Strategy until they finally piss off their allies.
[/quote]

It seems from the re-action here and on IRC, that's not happening anytime soon.

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[quote name='ironchef' date='25 June 2010 - 03:37 AM' timestamp='1277433438' post='2349459']
Are you joking? TIO came into their IRC chan to make trouble not the other way around, TIO took OO to the table for talks of war over this !@#$, and yes no joke there was a talk over lol cancer mom. Just who is wielding their MD treaties like a club? It sure as hell isn’t OO.
[/quote]

Well TIO does have twice the NS and more nukes than OO, they could dish what they are bringing.

But OO has done a lot of attempted clubbing.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' date='25 June 2010 - 03:46 AM' timestamp='1277433974' post='2349475']
It seems from the re-action here and on IRC, that's not happening anytime soon.
[/quote]


Randalla and Grievous are saints what can I say.

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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1277433360' post='2349457']
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.
[/quote]

I can't say that I would have behaved differently from Octava Orden, when you demand an apology when they felt that they had done nothing wrong. You can't expect people to know what you don't tell them, and a joke isn't malicious because of external affects which they know nothing about. As for "lol" afterwards, as I said earlier, entirely too often people pull pranks like that out of jest, its like the boy who cried wolf, I'm sure he wasn't laughing at cancer, he was laughing because he thought you were jesting, which is not an uncommon response to a "your mom" joke.

[quote name='ironchef' date='24 June 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1277433438' post='2349459']
Are you joking? TIO came into their IRC chan to make trouble not the other way around, TIO took OO to the table for talks of war over this !@#$, and yes no joke there was a talk over lol cancer mom. Just who is wielding their MD treaties like a club? It sure as hell isn’t OO.
[/quote]

You missed the best part of it, the night before Athens/TIO were full-on raiding the Octava Orden Channel, opping/half-opping everybody, screwing up the access list, and then they come in and say that its "immoral" to ban them from that channel.

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[quote name='Skippy' date='24 June 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1277433360' post='2349457']
Frankly, when Ezequiel and liltrekkie walked out of negotiations twice, denying us any apology, public or private, this was an alternative measure.

It could have been handled nice and easily without expanding it into a further issue.
[/quote]

I think the primary issue is that there shouldn't have been any need for an apology from them. From the log shown, you were joking around (unless you actually are/were putting him on a ZI list before he 'laughed') with him for a while. To suddenly take things seriously, is way beyond strange. The better way to handle it would have been to ask for an apology, and just leave if you didn't get one right away, especially since you were in his channel.

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[quote name='pezstar' date='24 June 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1277433751' post='2349472']
That's got nothing to do with what I responded to, and you are trying to deflect. You tried to say it wasn't about someone doing the equivalent of insulting your mother. I said it was, and provided evidence as to why I feel confident in calling you a liar. Now you are trying to deflect from that by saying that you were just telling STA about it because you like us. It's completely unrelated.
[/quote]

This stance, may or may not be correct. But, coming from someone so high up in an alliance that went to war to support Polar over .... what amounts to equal, or less validity.... is... funny.

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[quote name='commander thrawn' date='24 June 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1277433992' post='2349478']
Well TIO does have twice the NS and more nukes than OO, they could dish what they are bringing.
[/quote]

Yes and we all know how well that turned out for one big alliance that felt it could push other around.
The best thing about history is it has a sick way of repeating itself. B-)

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