OOC Shields

[Triyun]

You were in TE, you did not HAVE to cancel that. You could have remained out of a mode that is not listed in the rules. Instead you could have either put a lock on your nation if you did not want to check it, or you could have reached out to some nations and tried to put me in a political position where I would have had difficulty triumphing in a large scale war.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='23 June 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1277317210' post='2347826']
Everyone here should agree that you shouldn't OOCly be prevented from doing such things.
[/quote]

I have no problem against such a rule. The GM's were kind enough to let me RP in Botha Mode as long as I followed the terms they had given to me. At the time ( Even now) I find it fair enough not to sign Military Treaties. Essentially Botha Mode allows for a preplanned war and as such if a war is preplanned I see no reason in Military Treaties being brought in to the picture. That is why I stick by my earlier stance, Triyun's war on me should be retconned until he can have the courtesy to preplan it with me.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Triyun' date='23 June 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1277317515' post='2347831']
You were in TE, you did not HAVE to cancel that. You could have remained out of a mode that is not listed in the rules. Instead you could have either put a lock on your nation if you did not want to check it, or you could have reached out to some nations and tried to put me in a political position where I would have had difficulty triumphing in a large scale war.
[/quote]

Are you that dense? I wanted to RP in Botha Mode. The GM's gave me certain terms I had to adhere to, and I did. Though, there are no CNRP rules. Those are just guidelines.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Sir Keshav IV

[Sargun II]

You were and still are involved in a long-term, international ethnic conflict with a direct neighbor. Until that conflict is solved you shouldn't have been allowed to go into Botha Mode in the first place.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Sargun' date='23 June 2010 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1277318713' post='2347849']
You were and still are involved in a long-term, international ethnic conflict with a direct neighbor. Until that conflict is solved you shouldn't have been allowed to go into Botha Mode in the first place.
[/quote]

I was in Botha mode before any ethnic tensions even began to my knowledge.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Sargun' date='24 June 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1277318713' post='2347849']
You were and still are involved in a long-term, international ethnic conflict with a direct neighbor. Until that conflict is solved you shouldn't have been allowed to go into Botha Mode in the first place.
[/quote]

Regardless of IC propaganda USC used to start the war, it is plain fact that the conflict started [u][b]after[/b][/u] Keshav went into Botha Mode. The initial conflict was planned as far as I recall, and then the second conflict was forced by Triyun without any consultation with Keshav.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='23 June 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1277321053' post='2347893']
Regardless of IC propaganda USC used to start the war, it is plain fact that the conflict started [u][b]after[/b][/u] Keshav went into Botha Mode. The initial conflict was planned as far as I recall, and then the second conflict was forced by Triyun without any consultation with Keshav.
[/quote]

Unfortunately for your statement, this is all one conflict. There was never an official end to the previous war and in this war there are the same goals and motivations. The only difference is the day it was started.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Sargun' date='24 June 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1277321461' post='2347904']
Unfortunately for your statement, this is all one conflict. There was never an official end to the previous war and in this war there are the same goals and motivations. The only difference is the day it was started.
[/quote]

Then why is it that in this "one and same" conflict the new incarnation was not planned between the two players? Is it not a tenet of planned wars that they are "planned" ? Or is there a new definition for "planned" wars?

The "first" conflict was between Triyun and Keshav alone, the second conflict which essentially started with the new policy declaration and termination of cease fire resulted in a massive de-recognition and promises of involvement which changed the planned nature of conflict, essentially making it a "second" conflict. Now of course semantics could be used to great vagaries, but my assertion remains, if a war starts as planned, should it not also continue and end as planned?

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Sargun' date='23 June 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1277321461' post='2347904']
Unfortunately for your statement, this is all one conflict. There was never an official end to the previous war and in this war there are the same goals and motivations. The only difference is the day it was started.
[/quote]

The only difference is the earlier war was mutually agreed to end like that and we continue RP'ing in our own ways. That was the official ending.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='23 June 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1277321782' post='2347913']
Then why is it that in this "one and same" conflict the new incarnation was not planned between the two players? Is it not a tenet of planned wars that they are "planned" ? Or is there a new definition for "planned" wars?

The "first" conflict was between Triyun and Keshav alone, the second conflict which essentially started with the new policy declaration and termination of cease fire resulted in a massive de-recognition and promises of involvement which changed the planned nature of conflict, essentially making it a "second" conflict. Now of course semantics could be used to great vagaries, but my assertion remains, if a war starts as planned, should it not also continue and end as planned?
[/quote]

The Hundred Years' War was really four wars fought over a long period of time over the same areas with the same goals and motivations - and it's considered one conflict.

Just because one was planned does not mean the next needs to be planned as well.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Sargun' date='23 June 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1277323079' post='2347939']
The Hundred Years' War was really four wars fought over a long period of time over the same areas with the same goals and motivations - and it's considered one conflict.

Just because one was planned does not mean the next needs to be planned as well.
[/quote]

It infact does. Why? Both parties ( Triyun and me ) agreed thats how the original conflict would end. It ended like that. Emphasis on the word ended. This is a whole new conflict.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='23 June 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1277323249' post='2347942']
It infact does. Why? Both parties ( Triyun and me ) agreed thats how the original conflict would end. It ended like that. Emphasis on the word ended. This is a whole new conflict.
[/quote]

Not only would proof of that be lovely to see, but it still means absolutely nothing. In-character, the conflict is about the same thing. You're too focused on trying to weasel out of this using out-of-character mechanisms to realize that.

[Sir Keshav IV]

01[09:12] <Keshav> ceasefire agreement
01[09:12] <Keshav> lol
[09:12] <Triyun> I would just like a plausible explanation as too why
[09:12] <Triyun> Ok

Thats basically where we agreed to it.

I'm not weasling out of anything Sargun. Preplan the war with me and I'll say okay. But just attacking me, while I am not allowed to have treaties is unfair. If I am not allowed to have treaties, then I shouldn't be a free for all nation.

[Centurius]

Therefore we advocate dropping the no treaties rule too.

[Sir Keshav IV]

Dropping the treaties is fine by me. But I will not RP any war unless its preplanned.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Triyun' date='23 June 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1277316597' post='2347819']
First of all in regards to a senseless war: I can bring up a number of foremost sinologists who will argue that China would support war with Taiwan to reunify the country at the cost of a lot of foreign trade. My regime which is based highly on chinese nationalism which is based on that countries history works fine as far as IC reasons go. The forces of nationalism throughout history have been extraordinarily powerful and have lead to a willingness to use force. Germany, Russia, China, France, Japan, India, and Pakistan all these nations over the 20th Century threw away huge percentages of their population for the forces of Nationalism. This is the real world. What people don't like is senseless foreign expeditions into areas where people do not perceive as their area of influence, the cradle of Chinese civilization certainly does NOT fall into this category.
[/quote]

Sure it does. A small little Taiwanese faction builds itself up to Taiwan through war, grabs land on Mainland Asia, and then decides to conquer ALL of China through another war. You'd think people would be pleased with what they already have.


[quote]Keshav's not a 2k country. He's not that far from 50k himself. Yes I did a good job on diplomacy and organizing allies. Nobody prevented Keshav from doing the same. I developed a strategy and executed it as a nation. Why should I be punished for executing a strategy because someone else chose not to?[/quote]

Botha mode prevents him. In what way are you being punished? Not getting what you wanted? Real sympathy for you, man.

[quote]I favor using IG stats as far as measuring military size and ability levels. I think there is a world for RP, especially in regards to figuring out how to do jiujitsu like manuvers against stronger powers.[/quote]

Of course there are, but who would want to even attempt when people...not going to mention names...run to OOC when they dont get what they want?

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Centurius' date='23 June 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1277323848' post='2347957']
Therefore we advocate dropping the no treaties rule too.
[/quote]

You seem to speak for a group, but it certainly isnt CNRP.

[Triyun]

Cease fire =/= end of war, it means a pause in hostilities. There was no peace treaty.

Edit:

China is one nation MyKep. It has been considered such since the Qin Dynasty. Dynasties have originated in different areas throughout China but it does not change the fact it is a single country, and RPing a Chinese nationalist force I will treat it as such.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Triyun

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Triyun' date='23 June 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1277324566' post='2347973']
Cease fire =/= end of war, it means a pause in hostilities. There was no peace treaty.
[/quote]

It was the end of our war. You never spoke of continuing the war. Never to me at least.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Triyun' date='23 June 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1277324566' post='2347973']
Cease fire =/= end of war, it means a pause in hostilities. There was no peace treaty.

Edit:

China is one nation MyKep. It has been considered such since the Qin Dynasty. Dynasties have originated in different areas throughout China but it does not change the fact it is a single country, and RPing a Chinese nationalist force I will treat it as such.
[/quote]

Who is this Mykep fellow? He sounds incredibly awesome. Well then how can we expect you to preplan the complete desolving of a nation with mutual consent from the person who has held the land longer than you have.

Oh wait. Found the problem.

[Triyun]

Cease fire means cease fire, you used the language of cease fire in the logs rather than peace treaty. They are not the same thing.

[king of cochin]

Triyun, a planned war has to be planned throughout.

By your own reckoning, this is a continuation of the same planned war you started with keshav. Ceasefire is apparently the planned interlude. Then surely the continuation of war after the cease fire also has to be planned?

Or is it your argument that only the start of the war has to be planned and everything that follows in that war can be unplanned?

[Triyun]

My preference would be towards the latter to allow for the skills and efforts of the players to be taken into account rather than make compromises that realistically in a war do not need to be made.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Triyun' date='24 June 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1277326448' post='2348009']
My preference would be towards the latter to allow for the skills and efforts of the players to be taken into account rather than make compromises that realistically in a war do not need to be made.
[/quote]

Are you giving a new definition to the concept of planning?

This is definition to plan and planning as per [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/planned"]freedictionary[/url]
[quote]plan (pln)
n.
1. A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective: a plan of attack.
2. A proposed or tentative project or course of action: had no plans for the evening.
3. A systematic arrangement of elements or important parts; a configuration or outline: a seating plan; the plan of a story.
4. A drawing or diagram made to scale showing the structure or arrangement of something.
5. In perspective rendering, one of several imaginary planes perpendicular to the line of vision between the viewer and the object being depicted.
6. A program or policy stipulating a service or benefit: a pension plan.
v. planned, plan·ning, plans
v.tr.
1. To formulate a scheme or program for the accomplishment, enactment, or attainment of: plan a campaign.
2. To have as a specific aim or purpose; intend: They plan to buy a house.
3. To draw or make a graphic representation of.
v.intr.
To make plans.[/quote]

So that means what you are saying is an unplanned war. A modicum of planning can be introduced in unplanned wars, as a mark of respect and maturity between RPers, but unplanned changes in planned wars is a blatant violation of understanding between the players.

When you start a war as planned, you continue it according to the plan.

[Triyun]

Planned wars in my mind are an agreement too the war. I do not believe that every aspect of a war should be planned out and that competition should be wiped from the map. That takes out the fun in a good chunk of RPing. Without that its text sim city.