OOC Shields

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Il Terra Di Agea' date='21 June 2010 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1277133292' post='2345214']
[font="Book Antiqua"][color="#006400"]Said as a GM:
Keshev is in Botha Mode. We ruled on that a month ago, and laid out rules that he had to follow in order to stop another incident like that surrounding Junio. To date, he has followed all of the aforementioned rules, been responsible with the change of RPing style, and has, once again, failed to break any of the rules we laid out for him.

Just because some people really want to invade him doesn't mean he should be stripped of what he's worked for: As such, I would like to make the ruling (It can, of course, be overruled by another GM, as usual) That Keshev cannot be invaded except for an IG war.[/color][/font]


As for the Whole "IC reason" thing that Triyun brought up: Honestly, it makes things more realistic, to have stable, relatively neutral countries that don't get invaded every other week. It's more like that whole "Reality" thing that people like tossing out the window so much except when it's useful to them.
[/quote]

On the basis of this post, I want to know what the community thinks of this OOC shield that gives players immunity from war. Other than being locked, do you believe there should be a shield that prevents a critical form of interaction within RP?

[Centurius]

I am personally of the opinion that no OOC shield except for an inactivity lock should be possible on any player, while I do favor pre-planned conflicts it should not be mandatory for anyone. Part of rp'ing is community interaction, you can not have one form of it and then magically be unable to do the other. You either take it all or take nothing at all.

[hawk11]

Sheesh, I bet Poland, the Czechslovakia, and Beligum would love this ruling.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='22 June 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1277213904' post='2346495']
On the basis of this post, I want to know what the community thinks of this OOC shield that gives players immunity from war. Other than being locked, do you believe there should be a shield that prevents a critical form of interaction within RP?
[/quote]

The only reason I even support this is because of preplanned warfare. If you give me a heads up an plan it with me, I'm alright. I sure as hell forcing anyone to RP to your standards because of well various OOC and IC reasons.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='22 June 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1277216634' post='2346522']
The only reason I even support this is because of preplanned warfare. If you give me a heads up an plan it with me, I'm alright. I sure as hell forcing anyone to RP to your standards because of well various OOC and IC reasons.
[/quote]

Then make it a rule for everyone in CNRP. No one person should be immune to anything in RP due to a GM ruling (apart from a lock).

Edited June 22, 2010 by Voodoo Nova

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='22 June 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1277217557' post='2346533']
Then make it a rule for everyone in CNRP. No one person should be immune to anything in RP due to a GM ruling (apart from a lock).
[/quote]

Then make it a rule. No one is saying no are they ?

That being said, there is no OOC shield at all. Triyun asked for a war before and we did have it so that it can be fair to both players. This is a game, and in the end it should be fair for both players. One player cannot have whatever he wants and get away with it. It's as simple that. Now, Botha mode doesn't say we cannot war, it just says stick to IG stats and preplan wars and situations which could lead to war. Before anyone brings up Botha helping Tahoe- He is just continuing with the RP like how everyone here is complaining Botha mode doesn't allow you to be a part of the Community. You are. If you can freely attack Botha mode nations then why did the GM's give me a no-treaty ban? How is that fair? Having no treaties but being a free-for all. There is no balance. Given the set of rules, I have followed it to the letter. Then why should I be stripped out of my RP'ing right because someone else says so?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='22 June 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1277218860' post='2346547']
Then make it a rule. No one is saying no are they ?

That being said, there is no OOC shield at all. Triyun asked for a war before and we did have it so that it can be fair to both players. This is a game, and in the end it should be fair for both players. One player cannot have whatever he wants and get away with it. It's as simple that. Now, Botha mode doesn't say we cannot war, it just says stick to IG stats and preplan wars and situations which could lead to war. Before anyone brings up Botha helping Tahoe- He is just continuing with the RP like how everyone here is complaining Botha mode doesn't allow you to be a part of the Community. You are. If you can freely attack Botha mode nations then why did the GM's give me a[b] no-treaty ban[/b]? How is that fair? Having no treaties but being a free-for all. There is no balance. Given the set of rules, I have followed it to the letter. Then why should I be stripped out of my RP'ing right because someone else says so?
[/quote]


No treaties is complete and utter bull. It isn't fair, I agree. I would also support the removal of said ban because it has nothing to do with your willingness to RP using in game statistics only and emphasizing in game events and activities in a more prominent light.

[Botha]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='22 June 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1277218860' post='2346547']
One player cannot have whatever he wants and get away with it. It's as simple that.[/quote]

<OOC>This. The one-half of the essence of Botha Mode (damn I hate refering to myself in the third-person) is [i]mutual agreement between RP[/i]. (The other half is using IG stats)

As for my involvement in Tahoe, it simply makes RP sense as Tahoe and Transvaal have a very long, close history of political, cultural, and ideological interaction together. In the real world, two such closely 'allied' nations would react accordingly (and Transvaal has sent troops to Tahoe in the past to quell rebellions).

However if it came down to actual shooting in an RP war, I would have had to react accordingly and back off since I cannot engage in a shooting war (which is why my government is most agreeable to a diplomatic solution).

I had to bluff my way into the Pacific, if either Shadow or Pacifica stood up to me and said 'none shall pass' to my ships, then I'd have had to retreat back home.</OOC>

Edited June 22, 2010 by Botha

[SpacingOutMan]

I completely agree with ITDA's ruling, 'nuff said. Keshav is, in no way, pulling a Junio in this case.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Centurius' date='22 June 2010 - 06:41 AM' timestamp='1277214075' post='2346497']
I am personally of the opinion that no OOC shield except for an inactivity lock should be possible on any player, while I do favor pre-planned conflicts it should not be mandatory for anyone. Part of rp'ing is community interaction, you can not have one form of it and then magically be unable to do the other. You either take it all or take nothing at all.
[/quote]
He is not doing both. He is adhering strictly to the Botha Mode, as permitted by a GM within the [i]stringent rules[/i] set down by a GM for him to do so..

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='22 June 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1277232609' post='2346796']
I completely agree with ITDA's ruling, 'nuff said. Keshav is, in no way, pulling a Junio in this case.
[/quote]
Agreed.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='22 June 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1277234850' post='2346839']
He is not doing both. He is adhering strictly to the Botha Mode, as permitted by a GM within the [i]stringent rules[/i] set down by a GM for him to do so..


Agreed.
[/quote]

The thing is, why should there be rules limiting how people RP? So what if Keshav wants to RP treaties? So what if he wants to send ships in to the Pacific like Botha? Botha-style RP is using IG limits for your statistics and adhering to what happens to you in game happens to you in CNRP. It should have no bearing on IC politics and actions, except in regards to military strength. Keshav should be able to have allies (Botha did and still does, with or without a treaty).

This isn't about abuse. This is about someone saying we have to merge CN politics and CNRP in order to do something ICly. That is flat out wrong.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Voodoo Nova

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='22 June 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1277235227' post='2346844']
The thing is, why should there be rules limiting how people RP? So what if Keshav wants to RP treaties? So what if he wants to send ships in to the Pacific like Botha? Botha-style RP is using IG limits for your statistics and adhering to what happens to you in game happens to you in CNRP. It should have no bearing on IC politics and actions, except in regards to military strength. Keshav should be able to have allies (Botha did and still does, with or without a treaty).

This isn't about abuse. This is about someone saying we have to merge CN politics and CNRP in order to do something ICly. That is flat out wrong.
[/quote]
No, it's about limiting these politics to RP'ing by mutual consent. You act like that's a bad thing.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='22 June 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1277237665' post='2346879']
No, it's about limiting these politics to RP'ing by mutual consent. You act like that's a bad thing.
[/quote]

RP by mutual consent is fine. Bringing in CN politics is not.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='22 June 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1277234850' post='2346839']
He is not doing both. He is adhering strictly to the Botha Mode, as permitted by a GM within the [i]stringent rules[/i] set down by a GM for him to do so..
[/quote]

But who is the GM to make these rules? This topic is exactly about establishing community supported rules. Not GM supported ones.

[Triyun]

I never heard of an OOC shield when I first played this game and I do not think that one should be formalized by any sort of GM triumvirate. Much of what appeals to my particular style of RP is rather than pre-planned wars, the strategy involved in defeating opponents, out maneuvering them militarily and diplomatically. If someone wishes to keep their territory without defending it in my opinion they should just RP separate from the map. When there is a scarcity of resources people should compete for it. Thats what makes games fun.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Triyun' date='22 June 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1277239847' post='2346931']
I never heard of an OOC shield when I first played this game and I do not think that one should be formalized by any sort of GM triumvirate. Much of what appeals to my particular style of RP is rather than pre-planned wars, the strategy involved in defeating opponents, out maneuvering them militarily and diplomatically. If someone wishes to keep their territory without defending it in my opinion they should just RP separate from the map. When there is a scarcity of resources people should compete for it. Thats what makes games fun.
[/quote]

That coming from you is about as much worth as a chocolate fireguard. You always seem to come back to CNRP as the chinese and if you don't have the whole of china you go round waring those that have your "chinese" territory till it is yours. That is not fun for those that are pushed out of their territory.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='22 June 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1277240128' post='2346935']
That coming from you is about as much worth as a chocolate fireguard. You always seem to come back to CNRP as the chinese and if you don't have the whole of china you go round waring those that have your "chinese" territory till it is yours. That is not fun for those that are pushed out of their territory.
[/quote]

We aren't playing Sim City here.

[kitex]

I don't think that my recognizing only pre-planned wars is an OOC shield, at least I do not intend for it to be. The reason that I recognize only preplanned wars is because I want actual strategy to take the forefront in my wars instead of just throwing numbers around as well as I want people to have legit reasons when they war me, I don't want people saying "Oh this nation is despicable yadda yadda ya, I declare war on you." That's just annoying. Anyone who knows me knows that if I have to go to war I will, but I just want strategy to take the forefront of the war is all.

[Kaede Alexeivich]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='22 June 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1277238051' post='2346888']
RP by mutual consent is fine. Bringing in CN politics is not.
[/quote]
I find it ironic, coming from you But I won't go into that.

Hmm, as far as I know of Botha mode, if what it means is sticking strictly to IG stats, then I think it should have no bearing on allies and war. But what I know of Botha mode comes only from what I'm hearing in this thread.
Concerning pre-planned wars and RPs, it isn't really an OOC shield...I think it is much more enjoyable for most people if someone isn't forced into wars that one RPer has created and planned.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Kaede Alexeivich

[Triyun]

[quote name='Centurius' date='22 June 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1277240825' post='2346942']
We aren't playing Sim City here.
[/quote]

Precisely. This is also the first time I've used military force to force anyone out of China. I unified China the first time by diplomatic agreement with Mercy. The second time I unified it by diplomatic agreement with Merger. If you want to make claims about any record I have, learn your history first```.

Edit:

[quote name='Kaede Alexeivich' date='22 June 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1277241186' post='2346948']
I find it ironic, coming from you But I won't go into that.

Hmm, as far as I know of Botha mode, if what it means is sticking strictly to IG stats, then I think it should have no bearing on allies and war. But what I know of Botha mode comes only from what I'm hearing in this thread.
Concerning pre-planned wars and RPs, it isn't really an OOC shield...I think it is much more enjoyable for most people if someone isn't forced into wars that one RPer has created and planned.
[/quote]

I refer you to Hawk's Comment:

[quote]Sheesh, I bet Poland, the Czechslovakia, and Beligum would love this ruling. [/quote]

Edited June 22, 2010 by Triyun

[Michael McBride]

The reason I ask people to contact me before declaring a war is to avoid all the OOC !@#$ that normally goes into a war. It's not to try and weasel my way out of it or do anything else, it's to create a dialogue of communication and understanding so that any war is just that: a war, not an OOC !@#$%*fest. Now, I understand that some people won't want to honor a simple request, and that will just show the rest of the community what a dick they are, but that is their prerogative. It certainly doesn't stop them from warring me, it'll just make the whole thing a lot less enjoyable.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' date='22 June 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1277239847' post='2346931']
I never heard of an OOC shield when I first played this game and I do not think that one should be formalized by any sort of GM triumvirate. Much of what appeals to [b]my[/b] particular style of RP is rather than pre-planned wars, the strategy involved in defeating opponents, out maneuvering them militarily and diplomatically. If someone wishes to keep their territory without defending it in my opinion they should just RP separate from the map. When there is a scarcity of resources people should compete for it. Thats what makes games fun.
[/quote]

And much of what appeals to others' particular style of RP has little or nothing to do with what appeals to you.

[quote name='Centurius' date='22 June 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1277240825' post='2346942']
We aren't playing Sim City here.
[/quote]

Definitely not playing Risk either.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='22 June 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1277240128' post='2346935']
That coming from you is about as much worth as a chocolate fireguard. You always seem to come back to CNRP as the chinese and if you don't have the whole of china you go round waring those that have your "chinese" territory till it is yours. That is not fun for those that are pushed out of their territory.
[/quote]

Be respectful. No one is personally attacking your views; triyun expresses a valid school of thought with respect to how to approach RP. It has been said RP is both a game (as triyun views it), as well as a story, as sarah and many others view it.

What you are essentially saying is his opinion is invalid, because he happens to be good at the game/risk aspect of the RP. Would you also say sarah's view is invalid as she happens to be an adept writer?

[quote name='Kaede Alexeivich' date='22 June 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1277241186' post='2346948']
Hmm, as far as I know of Botha mode, if what it means is sticking strictly to IG stats, then I think it should have no bearing on allies and war. But what I know of Botha mode comes only from what I'm hearing in this thread.
Concerning pre-planned wars and RPs, it isn't really an OOC shield...I think it is much more enjoyable for most people if someone isn't forced into wars that one RPer has created and planned.
[/quote]

Bothamode as ITDA stated also incorporates the IG war slots of a nation. Therefore to a nation in bothamode, IC war is invalid as it is pure fantasy. The only time an IC war can take place is if there is a corresponding IG war to link it to. This is the reason some happen to be unhappy with the standards set forth, because it effectively invalidates recourse on the part of the community to a given player, effectively giving them an OOC shield. While yes it is possible that I or anyone could attack keshav IG, that would inevitably have CN political repercussions which is what I think voodoo was trying to say. In other words, it could be said that this particular school of bothamode is outdated as it only really makes sense in a world where large alliances, bans on nation-nation dueling, and major stretches of peace do not exist, a world much like the early bob.

As for nation to nation alliances, that directly stems from the OOC shield itself. If one cannot go to war, and cannot be warred then having military treaties with another nation beyond maybe Optional treaties, makes no sense and only implies burdens which are impossible to meet. The 'ban' as it was phrased exists more to ensure compatibility with the state of bothamode.

Edited June 23, 2010 by iamthey

[Triyun]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='23 June 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1277252956' post='2347068']
And much of what appeals to others' particular style of RP has little or nothing to do with what appeals to you.

Definitely not playing Risk either.
[/quote]

People's enjoyment only applies so far, if we wanted everyone to be happy we'd have to invent a couple extra continents to accommodate people's desires. Land is a scarce resource, which is essentially controlled by politics. War is at its heart one tool in the arsenal of politics. If one opposes a military move, than one should oppose it IC. One shouldn't seek OOC methods.

[Sargun II]

I'm gonna be totally honest here and say that I wish there were several extra continents to fit people on.