Xiphosis Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote]Sorry, whatever role GOD had in the matter, it's GOD's issue. GOD's action is not the responsibility of some other alliance.[/quote] Yes, I'm aware of that. I was correcting the idea that NPO wasn't involved, lol, as they were rather central to the operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='Haflinger' date='21 June 2010 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1277179877' post='2346184'] The basis for the LoFN CB came from GOD: it all started over the RicoVacilon incident. Which is how I get involved, heh. [/quote] What was the RicoVacilon incident? I did try to save you some time by checking the wiki and couldn't find anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffron X Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='22 June 2010 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1277187108' post='2346328'] Nobody's going to hold it against you for demonizing NPO. Not even NPO. They eat babies, you know. Mary makes this souffle... oh... gotta admit, didn't think something so morally awful could be so delicious. [/quote] Every sentence in this quote is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='ChairmanHal' date='21 June 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1277172290' post='2346025'] Then with all due respect, you don't understand realpolitik. Behind the scenes you had a growing coalition of alliances, some of whom had never worked together before, who had but a single goal in mind--taking NPO down a few notches. Even before C&G was added, I knew that there would be sufficient force present to do the job. I also reckoned that it would be a very long, very bloody fight. The more traction the movement got, the more that people who thought there was an opportunity to do something that the "consensus" said was impossible to do (minus Sponge of course...), and it could be done more easily than ever: the Continuum was splintered, One Vision not what it once was, and with the OoO gone and NpO unlikely to intervene as was likely in times past. NPO was as exposed as it ever had been since 2006. The Realpolitik view was that participating in the Karma coalition was simply the smart move. Subsequent events bore that out. NPO wasn't what it once was...neither was GGA, Echelon, and a host of other alliances and those watching closely knew it. Oh by the way, SuperFriends had decided back in December that they would fight and win...or die, long before C&G got involved. Indeed at Ragnarok we were puzzled why we weren't already at war in December and sat on alert expecting to be hit for much of the month. When it didn't happen...I sensed weakness. As I later found out, the Continuum was hopelessly split on the issue. Weakened they were indeed. This by no means belittles C&G's contribution to the war effort. They made a hard fight very much less of one. Vox Populi was the joker in the deck pretty much up until the Bastion Incident, then a sort of rapprochement took place. Credit where credit is due however, Schatt's "Pacifica Updates" humanized NPO and were the result of a number of people pulling covert ops at great sacrifice to themselves, as many of them were subsequently caught. FAN had become a ghost to scare and delight your alliance trainees. I always hoped they would get peace one day, but honestly thought that they would slowly vaporize in Peace Mode long before it happened. GOONS after all had managed to get a number of people into the safety of PM before the war ended, but they died out, unable to save themselves. As for Athens...if you were doing an objective analysis, there was always a core there that wanted to continue on. Sparta didn't really take as much of a chance on you as you are thinking. The world had already changed before there was such a thing as a "Karma Coalition", the question was whether other alliances were willing to change with it. Whether you want to believe it or not, alliances on both sides of the war were changed by it, some for the good, some for the bad. I like to think that Valhalla found some measure of redemption in that war, and myself along with it. [/quote] You are ignorant. He was referring to the creation of CnG, not CnG's committal to Karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='White Chocolate' date='22 June 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1277238956' post='2346912'] What was the RicoVacilon incident? I did try to save you some time by checking the wiki and couldn't find anything. [/quote] RicoVacilon was a Black team member who got tech raided by three nations, IIRC two GOD and one ArGo, and nuked them back when they refused to pay him reps for the unprovoked assault. He was then promptly sanctioned and ZIed; the war ended when his nation deleted. LoFN gave him an award for his actions in not rolling over, and that's when they came to the attention of the attacking alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 [quote name='Doitzel' date='22 June 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1277184549' post='2346285'] Still haven't given up that revisionism kick, huh? [/quote] Interesting how you manage to claim not to care, then proceed right into attempted character assassination. It's ok, I know that you are a bitter person with nothing left to do. You can't go home, nor it seems can you make a new one. The alliance you became so disillusioned with that you wanted to destroy it not only still exists, it just sat out the most destructive war in Planet Bob history, doing nothing but reloading. It will be around as a factor on the global scene for a very, very long time. You on the other hand... I can't make you be civil. I can however dismiss your words for the bitter monologue they obviously are. [quote name='New Frontier' date='22 June 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1277243267' post='2346969'] You are ignorant. He was referring to the creation of CnG, not CnG's committal to Karma. [/quote] Speaking of civility...I took Londo's words to be discussing C&G's commitment to Karma. If that is not what Londo had in mind, so be it. Do not presume to ever call me ignorant. Your house has too much glass content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 Any other questions, comments, concerns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpdogg Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 Great read, thanks for filling in some of the gaps Ardus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vend3tta Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 You joined NPO for a bit. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 [quote name='ChairmanHal' date='22 June 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1277261326' post='2347198'] Interesting how you manage to claim not to care, then proceed right into attempted character assassination. It's ok, I know that you are a bitter person with nothing left to do. You can't go home, nor it seems can you make a new one. The alliance you became so disillusioned with that you wanted to destroy it not only still exists, it just sat out the most destructive war in Planet Bob history, doing nothing but reloading. It will be around as a factor on the global scene for a very, very long time. You on the other hand... I can't make you be civil. I can however dismiss your words for the bitter monologue they obviously are. Speaking of civility...I took Londo's words to be discussing C&G's commitment to Karma. If that is not what Londo had in mind, so be it. Do not presume to ever call me ignorant. Your house has too much glass content. [/quote] All the better to see you trundling blindly towards any point that might help you attack "that side" with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk11 Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 [quote name='Doitzel' date='21 June 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1277134517' post='2345228'] And from the looks of [i]your[/i] tag, you're still wasting your time. Oh well. I guess the possessive indicates your prerogative.[/quote] You don't get to hit-and-run me like that without leaving your insurance and/or buying me a beer and discussing politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 [quote name='Vend3tta' date='23 June 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1277321109' post='2347895'] You joined NPO for a bit. Why? [/quote] Same reason I joined Legion that one time--curiosity. Giant, cumbersome, and led by a highly detached leadership that was condescending toward its general members. After a very short stint Rayvon resigned the Lordship, the VE internal cohesion hit a new low, and you guys requested my return. I acquiesced and returned with departure permission from Mary. Moo threw a goddamn fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffron X Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='23 June 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] Future grievances, too, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCapistan Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='23 June 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] Well, looks like you're screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='Mr Damsky' date='23 June 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1277345835' post='2348336'] Well, looks like you're screwed. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Orly now?[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='23 June 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] This is pretty funny coming from a member of Polaris, the alliance that more or less started that assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='23 June 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] [quote name='Geoffron X' date='23 June 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1277343079' post='2348283'] Future grievances, too, apparently. [/quote] [quote name='Mr Damsky' date='23 June 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1277345835' post='2348336'] Well, looks like you're screwed. [/quote] [quote name='Haflinger' date='23 June 2010 - 10:10 PM' timestamp='1277349041' post='2348396'] This is pretty funny coming from a member of Polaris, the alliance that more or less started that assertion. [/quote] Gentlemen you must really know that the true way to make up for past grievances is to have all your government leave and form another alliance. I can tell you it works brilliantly Thanks for the post Ardus, it has helped me understand some things I didn't before. Too bad we don't have more of this on the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='Geoffron X' date='23 June 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1277343079' post='2348283'] Future grievances, too, apparently. [/quote] I only need redemption in my own eyes. My crime was failing in the Green Civil War. My redemption was doing the dirty work necessary for VE to liberate itself. One can't automatically "make up" for past offenses in the eyes of others by losing a war. That's silly and simplistic. Sometimes wars provide the strategic or perspective change in the leaders of an alliance necessary to resume working with them. Sometimes they do not. One must make complex contextual judgments of people as they are. Can you trust the person? In what circumstances can you trust the person? What manner of communications and interaction must you maintain in order to preserve or create a working relationship? How have individuals reacted to past events and how might have past events changed their outlook or strategy? So on, so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCapistan Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='23 June 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1277350765' post='2348423'] My redemption was doing the dirty work necessary for VE to liberate itself. [/quote] So...you liberated yourselves by becoming Pacifican dogs for two years? Makes [b]complete[/b] sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='Mr Damsky' date='24 June 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1277355383' post='2348472'] So...you liberated yourselves by becoming Pacifican dogs for two years? Makes [b]complete[/b] sense. [/quote] VE came back with GOONS, GGA, and NPO as strong alliances. GOONS fell with the UjW thanks to the efforts of Electron Sponge. GGA's standing declined steadily through aggressive diplomacy vis-a-vis Pacifica & Polaris for the elimination of Bilrow's policies. By the time Karma rolled around GGA was already a shell of its former self, which given my low opinion of GGA even at its height is saying something. NPO fell with Karma, which required the division of the Continuum, which required the defeat of the enemy against which it was unified: Polaris. I won't claim to have thought all this from the beginning, nor will I claim responsibility for all of these events. I'm not quite that arrogant. VE and I did play our part. To more succinctly answer your "question", VE reformed with its assassins alive and well, unable to exist entirely on green. Today it is strong statistically and politically without any enemies capable of denying it. Might not make sense to you, but I for one like the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='24 June 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1277359947' post='2348519'] To more succinctly answer your "question", VE reformed with its assassins alive and well, unable to exist entirely on green. Today it is strong statistically and politically without any enemies capable of denying it. Might not make sense to you, but I for one like the results. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"] I think that with all of its "rich" history, cowardly manipulation, and insincere friendships, that you are making enemies fairly readily. What dragon will the realpolitiks at VE slay next oh wise one?[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='24 June 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1277395971' post='2348793'] [color="#FF0000"] I think that with all of its "rich" history, cowardly manipulation, and insincere friendships, that you are making enemies fairly readily. What dragon will the realpolitiks at VE slay next oh wise one?[/color] [/quote] Last I heard, we're gunning for Puff: The Magic Dragon. Ardus wouldn't know about that though, seeing as [i]he's not a member of the Viridian Entente[/i] Edited June 24, 2010 by Tungsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='24 June 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] Time for the gag order yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' date='23 June 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1277342801' post='2348276'] [color="#FF0000"]The repeated assertion that alliances make up for past grievances by losing a war is an absurd piece of semi-moralist tripe.[/color] [/quote] I admit it...I laughed a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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