Petition to Free the Map

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1276290235' post='2333685']
Ah, but Subtle, here's the thing: if it was white land, now at least you have the chance to form a coalition. If it was his protectorate, you have no right or reason to do anything at all.
[/quote]
If it was white land, he would have just claimed it to begin with when no one cared, instead of making it a protectorate. Try again.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1276289915' post='2333672']
derp.

The point s it would be futile to try and stop him. Especially if he goes lols, i bring in muh allies.

It's not a question of guts, but of is it really possible to win against him?
[/quote]
Yeah, here is what you do:

1. Gather your buddies
2. Yank Lavo's buddies away from Lavo
3. Curbstomp
4. If all else fails, then rage quit and restart as if nothing happens.
5. Repeat the process until Lavo is annoyed to the point where he OOCly ban you from CNRP by attacking all of your rerolls. Then report him, bring in the mods and make a huge fuss over it.

Edited June 11, 2010 by HHAYD

[Subtleknifewielder]

Unfeasable, HHAYD

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1276290384' post='2333694']
If it was white land, he would have just claimed it to begin with when no one cared, instead of making it a protectorate. Try again.
[/quote]
So what you're saying is that you have no actual argument, but that you just won't care. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, because it seems to me like the only reason you're against this is because you're afraid that if you intervene ICly you'll get rolled.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='11 June 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1276290341' post='2333692']
But if the land isn't formally annexed, its still a protectorate that can be claimed. If someone refuses an RPer by saying, 'no this land isn't available to you, it is a protectorate of mine for use in political machinations' then Triyun or Hawk or some other doogooder will make a thread like this. Problem solved.
[/quote]

How is the problem solved? Anyone could make a thread like this but unless the rule gets changed then nothing happens.

[Lord Zephyr]

[quote] So what you're saying is that you have no actual argument, but that you just won't care. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, because it seems to me like the only reason you're against this is because you're afraid that if you intervene ICly you'll get rolled. [/quote]

Actually sargun I think the point is not that we're scared to stop Lavo, Lynnyth, and other assorted superpowers from taking over the world, but that we'd fail miserably, or at least when the dust is all settled, if we tried. Trust me, I did try to stop him, with the help of three other people.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Lord Zephyr

[The FSM]

Seeing as my protectorate apparently started this whole discussion, I will address that first. If people had paid attention to events that occurred in Italy over the past few months people would have realized that I controlled S. Italy as a sovereign part of Sicily, its people were voting citizens etc. I had an activity issue, SMH had a small conflict over S. Italy, and he took control of the land. In the subsequent treaty that SMH and I signed it was agreed that in the event of either of us having another such activity problem, the other would then take over. SMH later left Italy and gave the ;and to me as his final act after nuking people in the Tahoe War. Im not arbitrarily holding on to land for the heck of it, I am more than willing to entertain discussions with players if they would like some of that land.


On the general point of protectorates, this is not an OOC issue, it is an IC issue. If you do not like protectorates then do not have your own protectorates. If you dont like other people having protectorates then undertake some kind of IC initiative (be it diplomatic, military or economic) to try and end the practice. The issue of protectorates is not a 'game mechanics' issue (like... how many nuclear weapons we can have, how many CM's we can have etc) that can only be discussed OOCly. This is an ideological conflict IC, and it should be played out and resolved as an ideological conflict ICly.

Im not opposed to a discussion on protectorates (though I am in favor of them myself), I just dont think that this (OOC) is the proper forum for it.


tl;dr-> take it IC

[The Disco Commandant]

This Funky DJ votes yes. Admittedly I didn't have to ask for land, because the Space I picked wasn't marked or labeled with any protectorate status, but I DID have to ask for land before Puerto Rico opened up. Folks, this protectorate thang is just plain unfunky, and keeping new players from coming in, and old players from coming back.

Edited June 11, 2010 by The Disco Commandant

[Uberstein]

[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1276289427' post='2333649']
Uberstein, you're the [b]only[/b] one who doesn't get that AS LONG as the protectorate is being annexed by the person who holds the protectorate, there is no IC way to stop them... but AS LONG as they're annexing white land, there is an IC way to stop them.
[/quote]
Besides, that's to stop people from simply claiming protectorates anyway? All they have to do is declare war on anybody trying to touch the land.

Banning protectorates won't work.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Lord Zephyr' date='11 June 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1276290687' post='2333711']
Actually sargun I think the point is not that we're scared to stop Lavo, Lynnyth, and other assorted superpowers from taking over the world, but that we'd fail miserably, or at least when the dust is all settled, if we tried. Trust me, I did try to stop him, with the help of three other people.
[/quote]
Thank you, that is exactly what I'm trying to say. Only it means more coming from someone who did once try to stop it.

[Proxian Empire]

I have personally released land to over 10 different nations in Iberia. Many of the newcomers have left, but at least the opportunity has always been available. Since
I transformed my protectorates into WEU protectorates they have gone very well, proving joint protectorates can work too.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1276292572' post='2333802']
Thank you, that is exactly what I'm trying to say. Only it means more coming from someone who did once try to stop it.
[/quote]

Wait so he beat you once and now you all hide in fear of his power? You know they have a word for that uh... was is it again... uhh.. oh yea coward .

No but seriousally Subtle just tell us in flat out plain english what you are trying to say?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I have voted to remove Protectorates, simply because ICly the U.S. would do so and I do think oocly that they are becoming troublesome.

[Justinian the Mighty]

I say this without even reading any of the arguements at all... Protectorates are keeping me from making my already massive empire even larger, so I think we should get rid of them.

[hawk11]

I'm surprised no one's brought up the fact that some nations are protecting land twice their actual nation size. And what happened to the sphere of influence rule for territory?

[Sargun II]

I'm not sure. I think we threw it out once Shadowsage annexed all of South America.

[hawk11]

Yeah, that's [i]another[/i] thing. Someone control an entire continent.

[JEDCJT]

I love annexing my protectorates. It's fun.
I'm trying to turn a new leaf, though. Trying is the key word.

[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1276288279' post='2333610']
Yeah, protectorates definitely solved the problem of people annexing the land they "protect"

Like JEDCJT
and Tahoe
and Shadowsage
and Cochin
not to mention the dozens of others who escape the top of my head.
[/quote]

Yay, I'm on the top of the list!

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1276289580' post='2333656']
Cochin released land. Sarah has released land. I have released land. Sil has released land. Even Mudd occasionally released land.
[/quote]

Uh, I released more than half of my land.

[quote name='hawk_11' date='11 June 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1276293954' post='2333862']
Yeah, that's [i]another[/i] thing. Someone control an entire continent.
[/quote]

Heh, Shadow is the [i]only[/i] RPer to control an entire continent, I believe.

Edited June 11, 2010 by JEDCJT

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='11 June 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1276292780' post='2333812']
Wait so he beat you once and now you all hide in fear of his power? You know they have a word for that uh... was is it again... uhh.. oh yea coward .

No but seriousally Subtle just tell us in flat out plain english what you are trying to say?
[/quote]
Because others can more accurately express what I am trying to say, that is why. And Kevin...I don't appreciate being called a coward, considering I have risked it all on at least two seperate occasions, so next time don't go calling anyone names that don't apply unless yuo want to look like a fool.

It's not about risking getting rolled...it's about the point that the rolling would have accomplished nothing, be [i]pointless[/i]. If I copuld guarantee that getting my nation rolled would stop imperialism, sure, I'd be on the front lines.

However, there is another issue. If you make it all white land, and against all odds someone stands up and says 'no, you can't annex this' and is successful, that still leaves the land white for someone else to try and grab later--if they are smart they'll do it when those who stopped them the first time are no longer united, a very real possibility. Or perhaps someone in the coalition that stopped them would take it. The point is, with protectorates, it's a one time thing. With white space, you'd have to deal with the crap over and over, and no guarantee of being successful even once.

Protectorates settle this issue the moment they are placed.

----

Now, as to SoI...it was rulled the SoI only applied to ORIGINAL uncontested claims. Properly RPing out further claims beyond it with another player nullifies it.

[Sargun II]

Actually no. SoI applies to any claim that you get that isn't given to you be legitimate IC gifting or war. ANYTHING else must fall in your SoI, like Antarctican bases and grabbing white land. I literally clarified this within five days ago, Subtle, but apparently you don't care to read anything that disagrees with your views. :/

Edited June 11, 2010 by Sargun

[hawk11]

Here's an idea: let's not mark protectorates on the map, instead keeping it white. I say this because I want you all to go find a globe and find a place on it that's marked "Protectorate of Russia" or the like. Short answer: they don't exist. If Nation A wants to declare war because Nation B, a nation that is hostile to it, is annexing land too close to it, have at it, but don't disallow new nations from forming in this area because you don't want to annex it, don't want anyone else to annex it, and only want someone friendly to you to create a nation there.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1276294505' post='2333884']
Because others can more accurately express what I am trying to say, that is why. And Kevin...I don't appreciate being called a coward, considering I have risked it all on at least two seperate occasions, so next time don't go calling anyone names that don't apply unless yuo want to look like a fool.

It's not about risking getting rolled...it's about the point that the rolling would have accomplished nothing, be [i]pointless[/i]. If I copuld guarantee that getting my nation rolled would stop imperialism, sure, I'd be on the front lines.

However, there is another issue. If you make it all white land, and against all odds someone stands up and says 'no, you can't annex this' and is successful, that still leaves the land white for someone else to try and grab later--if they are smart they'll do it when those who stopped them the first time are no longer united, a very real possibility. Or perhaps someone in the coalition that stopped them would take it. The point is, with protectorates, it's a one time thing. With white space, you'd have to deal with the crap over and over, and no guarantee of being successful even once.

Protectorates settle this issue the moment they are placed.

----

Now, as to SoI...it was rulled the SoI only applied to ORIGINAL uncontested claims. Properly RPing out further claims beyond it with another player nullifies it.
[/quote]

Did you not see the funny face and the "but seriousally" comment? I was joking silly. Also you don't have to re-roll if you lose a war you can rebuild your nation but most people just re roll into a new nation rather than spend the time rebuilding.

Also I really mean no offence but if people arn't going to risk IC damage/destruction to their nation then they shouldn't complain OOC.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='hawk_11' date='11 June 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1276295162' post='2333915']
Here's an idea: let's not mark protectorates on the map, instead keeping it white. I say this because I want you all to go find a globe and find a place on it that's marked "Protectorate of Russia" or the like. Short answer: they don't exist. If Nation A wants to declare war because Nation B, a nation that is hostile to it, is annexing land too close to it, have at it, but don't disallow new nations from forming in this area because you don't want to annex it, don't want anyone else to annex it, and only want someone friendly to you to create a nation there.
[/quote]

Very good point there but just one thing. There is no white land in the Real World as in the Real World all the land of the world is controlled by somebody. So its hard to compare the two.

[hawk11]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='11 June 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1276295262' post='2333921']
Very good point there but just one thing. There is no white land in the Real World as in the Real World all the land of the world is controlled by somebody. So its hard to compare the two.
[/quote]

You're right, but those lands are controlled by the local population, which in this case would be the new player.

[Subtleknifewielder]

@ Sargun: comprehension fail. I said [i]properly RP'd out[/i]. As in IC gifting or war. Silly Sargun. Apparently you love to read select parts of your opponent's posts.

@ Kevz: I do risk. The point I am making is that if it is pointless, and yuo do get rolled, you have accomplished nothing...and no, that does not necessarily mean you can rebuild on the same spot. All too often the losers in conflicts these days aren't permitted to continue RP'ing on their land.