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Petition to Free the Map


Triyun

Should the barriers for new players to enter be abolished and protectorates be removed?  

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Protectorates are the biggest problem CN RP faces today. Protectorates, especially joint ones make joining CN RP confusing for people who may want to enter. Beyond that, many protectorates often can be offered in small slivers that serve the geo strategic in game interests of the occupying power, rather than for the purpose of protecting land from annexation by existing powers. I believe that we need to focus on freeing up the map for new players an minimizing the barriers to entry for new players. This is especially true for protectorates which are held by multiple players, or players that could be on a leave of absence. I remember when people first start making protectorates, this was because people were outright trying to annex a huge amount of territory. Clearly this problem is still pervasive today, and protectorates have failed. All that is left are protectorates downside. If you do not like who occupies land, than you should man up and use your in game military to force them out. Thats precisely what I would do.

[quote]
MagicalHawk: sarah who is sicily
[3:37pm] SarahTintagyl: Flying Scotsman
[3:37pm] SarahTintagyl: you going for Northern Italy?
[3:38pm] MagicalHawk: if anything it'd be all of italy
[3:38pm] MagicalHawk: I've got the SoI it
[3:38pm] MagicalHawk: *for it
[3:38pm] SarahTintagyl: I don't know if he'll give you Naples
[3:38pm] SarahTintagyl: Owned-You asked for that
[3:38pm] SarahTintagyl: and FSM didn't give it
[3:38pm] MagicalHawk: what logical reason does he have for holding onto naples
[3:38pm] SarahTintagyl: probably eventually annexation
[3:39pm] MagicalHawk: players controlling who gets onto the map is an issue
[3:39pm] MagicalHawk: if people are going to annex something, they shouldn't piss about
[3:39pm] MagicalHawk: at least keshav got that much right
[3:39pm] SarahTintagyl: idk...ask him
[3:39pm] Triyun: I wholeheartidly agree
[3:39pm] SarahTintagyl: don't get your panties in a bunch cause I'm telling you what happened
[3:39pm] MagicalHawk: if you think you're the target of this rant there's an issue
[3:39pm] SarahTintagyl: lol
[3:40pm] MagicalHawk: you know how it works
[3:40pm] MagicalHawk: every three months I have an insightful rant about all the reasons CNRP is going to hell in a handbasket
[3:40pm] SarahTintagyl: well you've been on a steady rant for the past few weeks Hawk so I'm just not taking chances
[3:40pm] MagicalHawk: everyone smiles, nods, sometimes agrees, and no one does anything
[3:41pm] MagicalHawk: hell, you're in on the land-grab game
[3:41pm] SarahTintagyl: its a game have fun
[3:41pm] MagicalHawk: I'd have fun if people would let me on the damn map
[3:41pm] SarahTintagyl: you guys think about this game too much
[3:41pm] SarahTintagyl: well ask Hawk
[3:42pm] MagicalHawk: I did
[3:42pm] SarahTintagyl: and?
[3:42pm] MagicalHawk: mexico is five different countries now
[3:42pm] MagicalHawk: I waited a month for that land while people were prancing about on tahoe's corpse
[3:42pm] SarahTintagyl: you ask Yawoo for Cuba maybe/
[3:42pm] SarahTintagyl: ?
[3:42pm] MagicalHawk: then they finally came back to me about it and said "well other people asked for it so you can have this small part of territory"
[3:43pm] Biohazard joined the chat room.
[3:43pm] SarahTintagyl: how small?
[3:43pm] MagicalHawk: irrelevant
[3:43pm] Biohazard was promoted to half-operator by ChanServ.
[3:43pm] Biohazard: micro-small.
[3:43pm] SarahTintagyl: of course
[3:43pm] Biohazard: correction.
[3:43pm] MagicalHawk: the principle was that I asked for it
[3:43pm] Biohazard: asian* -small
[3:43pm] MagicalHawk: and it took a month
[3:44pm] MagicalHawk: by then the point wasn't even that I was hoping for more land, they got back to me when I was trying out the RABN thing
[3:44pm] MagicalHawk: so of course I didn't want it then
[3:44pm] SarahTintagyl: so you weren't interested
[3:44pm] SarahTintagyl: yeah
[3:44pm] MagicalHawk: how much longer am I going to have to wait now?
[3:44pm] SarahTintagyl: Africa's got a lot
[3:44pm] SarahTintagyl: protectorates
[3:45pm] MagicalHawk: odds are I'm going to take mael up on his open playground policy
[3:45pm] MagicalHawk: hate him all you want, at least he doesn't jerk people around for a month
[3:45pm] SarahTintagyl: oh I don't hate him
[3:45pm] SarahTintagyl: Mael's fine
[3:45pm] Biohazard: I do.
[3:45pm] MagicalHawk: that was a general statement
[3:45pm] Biohazard: When it comes to HOI2. :v
[3:45pm] MagicalHawk: again, target of rant etc
[3:45pm] SarahTintagyl: anyways...I'm sure he'll agree to a merge of some kind
[3:45pm] SarahTintagyl: he loves doing that stuff
[3:46pm] MagicalHawk: yeah, there in lies the issue
[3:46pm] MagicalHawk: all the american land is protected by three people
[3:46pm] MagicalHawk: the same people who were protecting mexico
[3:46pm] SarahTintagyl: lol
[3:46pm] SarahTintagyl: why not join directly with Mael then
[3:46pm] SarahTintagyl: like King Chris did
[3:46pm] MagicalHawk: because I'd rather contribute territory, so if things with mael fall apart he can't tell me to get off his land
[3:47pm] SarahTintagyl: ah
[3:48pm] MagicalHawk: so here lies the heart of the issue
[3:48pm] MagicalHawk: why must I talk to three different people to get on the CNRP map when these people aren't even using the land
[3:50pm] SarahTintagyl: hence why joint-protectorates suck
[3:50pm] Triyun: Protectorates suck
[3:50pm] MagicalHawk: this goes back to before you logged into IRC where I said that this game isn't newbie friendly at all
[3:50pm] MagicalHawk: people have protectorates all wrong
[3:50pm] SarahTintagyl: idk...I just set up camp in Martens territory
[3:50pm] MagicalHawk: protectorates should only be declared over other nations, not unclaimed territory
[3:50pm] SarahTintagyl: Ranather helped me the rest of the way
[3:51pm] MagicalHawk: I joined CNRP as a triyunican protectorate in korea
[3:51pm] MagicalHawk: that's how it should work.
[3:51pm] SarahTintagyl: well then why not do it like that
[3:51pm] SarahTintagyl: find someone to sponsor you
[3:51pm] SarahTintagyl: and go from there
[3:51pm] MagicalHawk: because under the current CNRP rules I can't even touch the land I want because someone wrote their name on it
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: well did you talk to Triyun before you became the protectorate in Korea?
[3:52pm] MagicalHawk: yeah, he gave me land he had previously annexed
[3:52pm] MagicalHawk: key word being annexed
[3:52pm] Triyun: He had to, because it was my territory
[3:52pm] Triyun: not my semi-territory
[3:52pm] MagicalHawk: it was a part of his nation
[3:52pm] Triyun:
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: naturally
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: well just PM some one
[3:52pm] MagicalHawk: I refuse to go through this gate-keeper !@#$ again
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: and say...I want to be protected by you
[3:52pm] MagicalHawk: why must I
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: yeah but then you'll only have to do it with one person
[3:52pm] SarahTintagyl: instead of three
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: but that's the land I want
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: no one is using it. it's sitting right there
[3:53pm] SarahTintagyl: idk
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: it's completely open.
[3:53pm] Biohazard: SOL.
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: no one is developing
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: no one is even moving troops into it
[3:53pm] MagicalHawk: I could declare myself in there, and atlantis and louisiana wouldn't even be able to move troops into it because they're blocked by the USA
[3:54pm] MagicalHawk: it's stupid.
[3:54pm] SarahTintagyl: well then go for it and see what happens
[3:54pm] SarahTintagyl: you wanted to be an antagonist
[3:54pm] MagicalHawk: I can't
[3:54pm] MagicalHawk: it's against out of character rules
[3:54pm] MagicalHawk: they won't even take the claim seriously in the map thread
[3:54pm] Biohazard: To be an antagonist?
[3:55pm] MagicalHawk: no, to claim someone's protectorate
[3:55pm] Biohazard: Do it ICly, then?
[3:55pm] Biohazard: Make up something?
[3:55pm] Biohazard: The land isn't 'owned' by them
[3:55pm] MagicalHawk: yes it is
[3:55pm] Biohazard: it's more or less supervised by them.
[3:55pm] MagicalHawk: it has their name on it
[3:55pm] SarahTintagyl: whether its doing it right or wrong
[3:56pm] MagicalHawk: they won't
[3:56pm] MagicalHawk: because other people also want that territory
[3:56pm] SarahTintagyl: well then you have to divide it out and probably start small
[3:57pm] MagicalHawk: that's horse!@#$. I should be able to claim the territory because the only reason someone wants it is because I pointed out it was open and I want it.
[3:57pm] MagicalHawk: you're seeing my frustration over this gatekeeper system right?
[3:57pm] SarahTintagyl: of course
[3:57pm] MagicalHawk: of course is a loaded phrase
[3:57pm] MagicalHawk: yes or no
[3:58pm] SarahTintagyl: yes Hawk
[3:58pm] MagicalHawk: I feel like you're yessing me
[3:58pm] MagicalHawk: before the yes I mean
[3:58pm] MagicalHawk: with of course
[3:58pm] Biohazard: She is, don't worry.
[3:58pm] Biohazard: Everything you know, is a lie.
[3:58pm] SarahTintagyl: forgive I didn't know I was being drilled on what words I use
[3:59pm] MagicalHawk: semantics aside
[3:59pm] MagicalHawk: that's the summary of why I'm annoyed
[3:59pm] MagicalHawk: I can map out a bunch of other reasons, but I'll do that when I'm actually on the map. Let's change one thing at a time
[4:01pm] SarahTintagyl: don't know what to tell you unless you want to come along with me for the ride
[4:01pm] SarahTintagyl: which in case you're welcome to query me
[4:02pm] MagicalHawk: It'd be nice if you supported some of the changes once I point them out if you feel the same way
[4:02pm] MagicalHawk: only if you feel the same way though
[4:02pm] SarahTintagyl: well I'd have to see your proposals
[4:02pm] SarahTintagyl: but I try to keep an open mind
[4:03pm] MagicalHawk: I'd have to write them
[4:03pm] MagicalHawk: and some of them are never going to change no matter how much I try[/quote]

Warm Hawk's ice heart vote yes on ending protectorates and yes on player freedom.

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I was around for the scramble threads. I like protectorates because at least they give the message "ask for it and you could get it."

Annexing land outright just colors the map with no white space left, and suddenly the new players see NOWHERE to go. If people are abusing protectorates that is THEIR fault, not the overall protectorate system's fault.

Besides, I think this is GM or Mod issue, not a player issue.

Edited by BaronUberstein
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No. As operator of protectorates for many years, I often gave them away when the time was right. Not for any selfish ends, but to any random new player that expressed an interest in joining the RP. Never any guarantee they would be my ally or friend.

I was around for the Scramble thread...everyone involved was gobbling up land at huge rates--until Protectorates were introduced.

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I vote no for the simply reason as during one of my many many rage outs/quits :awesome: I was told you can't have everything you want. If you can't have a piece of land because someone says no then tough find somewhere else.

However, I think maybe a change could be made to the rules. For example say Player B asks Player A for said protectorate but is denied then we should allow Player B to RP a rebellion inside of said protectorate and if that person is successful then they keep the land and if not they have to try somewhere else.

I think that would be fair as it at least gives players a chance at getting the protectorate they would like. What do you guys and gals think?

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Yeah, protectorates definitely solved the problem of people annexing the land they "protect"

Like JEDCJT
and Tahoe
and Shadowsage
and Cochin
not to mention the dozens of others who escape the top of my head.

Edited by Sargun
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[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1276288279' post='2333610']
Yeah, protectorates definitely solved the problem of people annexing the land they "protect"

Like JEDCJT
and Tahoe
and Shadowsage
not to mention the dozens of others who escape the top of my head.
[/quote]
So you simply want to give no other option but annex? Sounds like a brilliant way to solve the problem.

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Protectorates are just a shadow annexation the way people treat them now. Its better to just force people to take the political hit from annexation. Players need to be responsible. If they want to stop nations from annexing territory, they should simply use their armed forces to prevent that.

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[quote name='BaronUberstein' date='11 June 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1276288371' post='2333613']
So you simply want to give no other option but annex? Sounds like a brilliant way to solve the problem.
[/quote]
Protectorates give a legal IC way for people to annex what would otherwise be white land. Without a protectorate over the white land, now no nation has a protectorate that they can just say is theirs and thus allows people who otherwise wouldn't let the nation to annex the white land a legitimate CB that might not start a treaty chain from going up. In other words, it's [b]you[/b] who is subscribing to the plan to have white land annexed.

If you're going to say stupid things, don't say anything at all.

Edited by Sargun
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Protectorates should stay.

To elaborate: Protectorates are the only thing that hold people back from all-out annexing land. White space gets left open, it gets taken. With protectorates, the RPers get to filter who they want, and don't want, they get to have a bit of control over their surroundings, and, more importantly, they allow new RPers to come in, see that there is free land, and take it.

On top of all of that, I think Protectorates can, if RPed well, add depth to RP. I spent several months going through the process of stabilizing, freeing, and annexing my land in Sweden. People in the past have used protectorates as leverage, as a political battleground, as any of a great number of things, and I think that abolishing them eliminates any such RP.

As far as I'm concerned really, Protectorates are the owner's land to do with what they wish, regardless of people coming in and demanding the land. If you want protectorate land, ask kindly, and never expect to get it easily, as the owner is under no obligation to give it up. Some people are nice about it, some people have plans for land, some people just want to annex their protectorate, but it is their land, and they are free to do with it as they wish.

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[quote name='Il Terra Di Agea' date='11 June 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1276288942' post='2333631']
Protectorates should stay.

To elaborate: Protectorates are the only thing that hold people back from all-out annexing land. White space gets left open, it gets taken. With protectorates, the RPers get to filter who they want, and don't want, they get to have a bit of control over their surroundings, and, more importantly, they allow new RPers to come in, see that there is free land, and take it.

On top of all of that, I think Protectorates can, if RPed well, add depth to RP. I spent several months going through the process of stabilizing, freeing, and annexing my land in Sweden. People in the past have used protectorates as leverage, as a political battleground, as any of a great number of things, and I think that abolishing them eliminates any such RP.

As far as I'm concerned really, Protectorates are the owner's land to do with what they wish, regardless of people coming in and demanding the land. If you want protectorate land, ask kindly, and never expect to get it easily, as the owner is under no obligation to give it up. Some people are nice about it, some people have plans for land, some people just want to annex their protectorate, but it is their land, and they are free to do with it as they wish.
[/quote]

So in other words the right to annex without annexing?

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[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1276288591' post='2333624']
Protectorates give a legal IC way for people to annex what would otherwise be white land. Without a protectorate over the white land, now no nation has a protectorate that they can just say is theirs and thus allows people who otherwise wouldn't let the nation to annex the white land a legitimate CB that might not start a treaty chain from going up. In other words, it's [b]you[/b] who is subscribing to the plan to have white land annexed.

If you're going to say stupid things, don't say anything at all.
[/quote]
A complete lack of protectorates led to no white space left on the map, we have SEEN this happen with the old days before protectorates. Without protectorates, suddenly there is no white late because everyone can grab white space with no IC way to stop them. New players then would have to ask for annexed land, and because it's already colored in and part of the nation, chances are they won't try to ask. You're asking for a return to the days of no even semi-open space on the map, as we saw after the scramble threads.

If you're going to say stupid things, don't say anything at all.

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Uberstein, you're the [b]only[/b] one who doesn't get that AS LONG as the protectorate is being annexed by the person who holds the protectorate, there is no IC way to stop them... but AS LONG as they're annexing white land, there is an IC way to stop them.

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[quote name='Triyun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1276289194' post='2333641']
So in other words the right to annex without annexing?
[/quote]
In many more words, yes. If everything were to go straight to white space, people would either annex the land to protect their interests, or leave it empty and invade anyone who got close to it, doing nothing about the problem what-so-ever. All it does is make it harder in many cases for new players to find land, or continue the same issue you are fighting against, only with more whining about how "It's white space, I can claim it whenever I want!" Which would be followed by war. All it does is replace the, albeit often wasted, potential for RP, with the potential for lots of OOC whining, and lots of war.

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[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1276288279' post='2333610']
Yeah, protectorates definitely solved the problem of people annexing the land they "protect"

Like JEDCJT
and Tahoe
and Shadowsage
and Cochin
not to mention the dozens of others who escape the top of my head.
[/quote]
Cochin released land. Sarah has released land. I have released land. Sil has released land. Even Mudd occasionally released land.

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[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1276289427' post='2333649']
Uberstein, you're the [b]only[/b] one who doesn't get that AS LONG as the protectorate is being annexed by the person who holds the protectorate, there is no IC way to stop them... but AS LONG as they're annexing white land, there is an IC way to stop them.
[/quote]
I dare you to try and stop someone like, say, Lavo if he annexes land.

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[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1276289689' post='2333662']
I dare you to try and stop someone like, say, Lavo if he annexes land.
[/quote]

It is possible to do. You'd just need a coalition of forces to beat him unfortunally a lot of people are either locked by treaties or have little or no allies so meh.

Edited by Kevin Kingswell
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[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1276289689' post='2333662']
I dare you to try and stop someone like, say, Lavo if he annexes land.
[/quote]

I stood up against Lynneth and LVN at the same time, you're damn straight I'd stand up to Lavo.

In addition, your only point against my argument is that you're too scared to intervene ICly. :smug:

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[quote name='Sargun' date='11 June 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1276289791' post='2333667']
I stood up against Lynneth and LVN at the same time, you're damn straight I'd stand up to Lavo.

In addition, your only point against my argument is that you're too scared to intervene ICly. :smug:
[/quote]
derp.

The point s it would be futile to try and stop him. Especially if he goes lols, i bring in muh allies.

It's not a question of guts, but of is it really possible to win against him?

Edited by Subtleknifewielder
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[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1276289915' post='2333672']
derp.

The point s it would be futile to try and stop him. Especially if he goes lols, i bring in muh allies.
[/quote]

Long term warfare my friend. The problem is that almost all if not every CNRP player myself included usually fight wars for a couple of days or weeks IRL which is far too short for any real fighting to occur. Look at Afghanistan and Iraq I mean sure the Coalition defeated the intial forces but now they have to deal with insurgents and their like.

Unfortunally CNRP's current war style is too unrealistic for anyone to RP any insurgencies.

Edited by Kevin Kingswell
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[quote name='Executive Minister' date='11 June 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1276290138' post='2333681']
Then why not keep the protectorate system, but disallow players from annexing their own protectorates?
[/quote]

Too easy to get around. There would be nothing for someone to carry on as if they have annexed the land but just say they havn't.

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[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='11 June 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1276289915' post='2333672']
derp.

The point s it would be futile to try and stop him. Especially if he goes lols, i bring in muh allies.

It's not a question of guts, but of is it really possible to win against him?
[/quote]

Ah, but Subtle, here's the thing: if it was white land, now at least you have the chance to form a coalition. If it was his protectorate, you have no right or reason to do anything at all.

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[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='11 June 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1276290209' post='2333683']
Too easy to get around. There would be nothing for someone to carry on as if they have annexed the land but just say they havn't.
[/quote]

But if the land isn't formally annexed, its still a protectorate that can be claimed. If someone refuses an RPer by saying, 'no this land isn't available to you, it is a protectorate of mine for use in political machinations' then Triyun or Hawk or some other doogooder will make a thread like this. Problem solved.

Edited by Executive Minister
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