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[quote name='Blind Murder v2' date='16 June 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1276647273' post='2338844']
We applied to NOIR with no intentions of moving to brown, is was during the application process the interviews with current NOIR signatories, and the unwelcoming actions of current NOIR signatories that gave us the idea of changing spheres. Along with the fact only [u]1[/u] alliance from the black sphere and NOIR made an attempt to befriend or even get to know BCOM, and that was AzN.
[/quote]


[quote name='PotFace' date='18 June 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1276824445' post='2341299']
Yep. So when we said that our dealings with NOIR wasn't a primary factor in the decision to move to brown, there's your proof.
[/quote]


Hmmm? Beg pardon?

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[quote name='commander thrawn' date='17 June 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1276824870' post='2341307']
Hmmm? Beg pardon?
[/quote]


It was a reason, but not a primary one. It put the idea in our heads, but we typically discuss things in great depth before making major decisions.

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For the record, Sparta [i]was[/i] friendly when BCOM emerged and was seeking out a protector. However, the interview progressed and myself and my FA elders had strong doubts about the leadership. These were not resolved through the rest of the process, so I bid them good luck and we went our separate ways. I've seen it said in here that only one black alliance attempted friendly relations, and just wanted to clear that up. There was little further interaction from BCOM following the initial protectorate interview.

Edited by Seth Muscarella
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[quote name='ShadowDragon' date='17 June 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1276783146' post='2340610']
All three Maroonity blocs have been around longer then NOIR. >_>
[/quote]
Meh, I didn't do my homework.


I was going to quote a few more people, but after reading Thrawn's address on page 6, that should be enough.

P.S. I dislike PotFace.... :ph34r:


Actually I lied, BMv2, can I just say you really suck at defending your point?

You quoted one person asking what came up OOC, which is perfectly normal. I fail to see how this is a breach of protocol. Besides, no single person or alliance represents Noir.

You quoted someone saying how Menotah was rejected 3 times. This is true, but Menotah until before they applied for the 4th time was an extremely unstable and inactive alliance getting themselves into all sorts of trouble, no Unity bloc would accept them in that state. However they cleaned up their act and were patient persistent, that showed us they really were committed to Noir. Unlike BCOM, who would not wait a few weeks to get off the ground before being accepted.

You quoted someone listing the number of Upper Conclave members, and said too many chiefs, not enough Indians. First off Noir is not a power bloc, its a unity bloc, everyone gets equal representation, no single alliance has power over Noir. Perhaps you should look that one up next time.

You quoted xR1]fk[ with one post text, and 2 lines of IRC logs. That's pathetic for even the lowest standards. We have no way of telling the context of which xR1]fk[ was speaking, most likely in a joking matter. A good sense of humor is always a good thing to have.



Overall, BCOM you need to take some lessons from the pro's of debating over at NSO, they would have done it right.

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[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1276882580' post='2342066']
-snip-
[/quote]
NOIR hasn't even been around that long, bro. You should have used "having our flag fly in many nations across our world" which is still *$*& to say. And to not liking Pot, why not? He's a good dude. He's knows what the hell he is doing unlike most alliances, micro or sanctioned. Or is it because of his past history?

Fort, you're like a brother to me, but you can't spew $@(# about unity and then deny black team alliances. Whether it be that they're unstable(If they happen to be unstable don't you think they should get some protection to work $&() out?) or any other reason. Be real, IIRC you've been preaching this, even when black had 34 blocs for team unity. And it's just a tad different now.

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Noir passed its first anniversary in February, is nearing the 1.5 year mark in a world where unity blocs tend to go into deep inactivity, some survive, but most still fail due to political divides. Mainly because most unity blocs are also MDP blocs.

I'm going to take a second and say honestly I've don't ever recall hearing about Pot or his history. But considering I'm still in retirement (aside from this thread) that's kinda a given. I don't... favor him... because he basically insulted Black and Noir as a whole a page or two back. He may know what he's doing, but that doesn't excuse his lack of respect.

It's not my decision to deny them, I'm only a mere Middle Conclave member which can only vote if both the Upper Conclave members from their alliance are absent. Individual alliances chose to vote no on grounds of them being too young and the fact they [i]could[/i] have been unstable. Admitting alliances and then them collapsing a few weeks later isn't exactly a good thing. I personally don't care about their age, if they are active and are willing to help the team, then I would support them.

Protection is a different matter, Noir isn't here to protect Black, its here to unify, the ODP is merely a way to give alliances a chance to defend a team mate. It was never the main focus of Noir. If it was, it would be an MDP bloc.

Edited by Fort Pitt
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I came into this thread not liking BCOM very much(snap decision dont eat me), but I come out of this thread wondering why everytime a small alliance(see BTA) leaves black and says they didn't like NOIR the people of NOIR feel the need to come out to challenge every word and phrase. Kinda seems like a cricket hopping onto my yard and peeing and me stomping it to death, because it disgraced my yard.

I guess NOIR could argue that BCOM was spreading lies about unfriendly people, lack of cooperation and all that, but really what alliance or person is going to take something a new 200k alliance says about a massive bloc and change their opinion about said bloc? Again it's like a 5 year old calling his dad a idiot in a store and a crowd assumes the man is a idiot. Doesn't happen

BCOM, as a former NOIR sig and leader of one of there founding aliances, I wish you the best of luck. Youll be missing out on a great experience, great friends, and good times, although I'm sure you dont believe that, but it's you deicison. I'm guessing if you had any concerns if you made the right decision to brown they have been elminated now?

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BTA left in a storm, and caused problems on their way out. BCOM caused a slight stir, but nothing much, only because they on some occasions blamed Noir and on others said Noir had nothing to do with the move. So someone is obviously lying. However, BCOM is no where near the... magnitude... of BTA.

You should know that no person actually represents Noir, and you should know that when I pick a side of an argument, I don't stop. I don't appreciate it when people leave the team on questionable grounds, and I don't like it when they leave the team blaming it for problems that they most likely were the cause of.


Noir isn't stomping on BCOM like a cricket in a yard, I have no idea where you got that analogy from, because it is far from the truth.

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[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1276893253' post='2342192']
Noir passed its first anniversary in February, is nearing the 1.5 year mark in a world where unity blocs tend to go into deep inactivity, some survive, but most still fail due to political divides. Mainly because most unity blocs are also MDP blocs.

I'm going to take a second and say honestly I've don't ever recall hearing about Pot or his history. But considering I'm still in retirement (aside from this thread) that's kinda a given. I don't... favor him... because he basically insulted Black and Noir as a whole a page or two back. He may know what he's doing, but that doesn't excuse his lack of respect.

It's not my decision to deny them, I'm only a mere Middle Conclave member which can only vote if both the Upper Conclave members from their alliance are absent. Individual alliances chose to vote no on grounds of them being too young and the fact they [i]could[/i] have been unstable. Admitting alliances and then them collapsing a few weeks later isn't exactly a good thing. I personally don't care about their age, if they are active and are willing to help the team, then I would support them.
Protection is a different matter, Noir isn't here to protect Black, its here to unify, the ODP is merely a way to give alliances a chance to defend a team mate. It was never the main focus of Noir. If it was, it would be an MDP bloc.
[/quote]
Congrats to NOIR. I didn't know that. I thought you guys would have collapsed awhile back.

Sorry, the way I read it sounded like you disliked his history because of his old life. But, that doesn't need to be discussed here. I'm sorry I misread that.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just dense... Well, you know me and you know how dense I am, but I'm wondering why you would deny someone if they are unstable/inactive. Now, when I was a noob the thing that got me active in politics and my nation(I was a bum, big deal, wanna fight about it?) was The Brotherhood(May she rest in peace :wub: ) And wouldn't you want an unstable alliance to get into a bloc to learn from the leaders? Even if black has a lot of whiners it sure has a bunch of leaders. NOIR wasn't made for protection but, with the recent UINE - -I-(?) debacle it does seem like NOIR protects its members(Not like I'm complaining. I in fact love it) and I admit that protection might not be the original idea, but it does look like a side product of it. Anyway, I'm just wondering why an alliance based off of team unity would deny members. But, does one have to join NOIR to get into all the econ stuff you're doing?

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[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1276897034' post='2342235']
BTA left in a storm, and caused problems on their way out. BCOM caused a slight stir, but nothing much, only because they on some occasions blamed Noir and on others said Noir had nothing to do with the move. So someone is obviously lying. However, BCOM is no where near the... magnitude... of BTA.

You should know that no person actually represents Noir, and you should know that when I pick a side of an argument, I don't stop. I don't appreciate it when people leave the team on questionable grounds, and I don't like it when they leave the team blaming it for problems that they most likely were the cause of.


Noir isn't stomping on BCOM like a cricket in a yard, I have no idea where you got that analogy from, because it is far from the truth.
[/quote]
I can't help but get this feeling as though a few Noir representatives are sulking...

Did we really leave that much of an impression? :smug:

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[quote name='Believland' date='19 June 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1276905784' post='2342337']


I'm sorry, maybe I'm just dense... Well, you know me and you know how dense I am, but I'm wondering why you would deny someone if they are unstable/inactive.
[/quote]

Not dense at all. But it wasn't the first time it has happened and every time an inexperienced, and small AA applies for NOIR we discuss it. A few NOIR members predictably vote no to alliances that are young for their own reasons. I think its an understandable stance because AAs don't often survive or become great and many fizzle soon after announcing. By making them survive a bit on their own before becoming a signatory we weed through some of those that will die off and avoid making NOIR jump around in membership numbers too often. We also want to make sure that alliances are committed to black and NOIR, and committed to assisting their allies on black. If the application process and wait time is too much it shows lack of commitment to the idea. This said we will still work with alliances on economic matters without them being part of NOIR and any black team member can sign up on NOIR's forums to apply for trade circles, tech deals etc. So basically they could reap many of the benefits while striving to improve internally and getting to know their fellow black team leaders. This conduct isn't that different than that of SPAM and MEP as I know from my time in TTK.

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Since the NOIR debate is still continuing, I might as well throw another 2 cents in. I'm actually glad this thread brought the issues with NOIR to light, which are quite simple to resolve, in all honesty. Regarding the time frame and not being committed enough to stick it out, it boils down to a lack of communication, which I addressed in our application. From the outside looking in, as a new applicant, no expectations are set informing applicants of the time frame they should expect. People aren't accustomed to waiting several weeks, or months, to get approved. Post the expectations in the NOIR forums for applicants and problem solved.

Secondly, I asked that you sell yourselves to us as well as expecting us to sell ourselves to you. This was met with a bit of arrogance by NOIR signatories. You have this persona of "Hey, we're the best thing going", which didn't really sit well with me. If you are, you should be willing to back it up. Having a large bloc doesn't necessarily mean it's effective. As it relates to the real world, any qualified employer is prepared to discuss it's benefits to a potential employee. This is because they want to continue their growth and attract worthy candidates into their fold. It's perfectly understandable, by the same token, that you should be hesitant to accept new alliances that have yet to prove themselves, only to see them disband a few weeks down the road. So, along with setting expectations, you should also set criteria for applicants. If this is a primary concern of NOIR, then don't allow an alliance to apply unless they've met the criteria, which could be a set time of existence, minimum score or avg NS, minimum member count, etc. In doing these two things, you've already eliminated those not willing to stick it out and those you feel are too small or insignificant to apply, before the application process even begins.

Bearing all that in mind, if NOIR is promoting themselves as being dedicated to the black team and the economic growth and prosperity of black team alliances, then why the hell wouldn't you take a chance on any black team alliance that applies and attempt to help enable them to become a more solidified alliance? Instead, you present yourselves as intent on only accepting those who really don't need your help in the first place...kind of like a bank who will only loan money to someone after they've proven they don't need it.

I hope you can take this as constructive criticism because it's aimed at improving your processes and avoiding the pitfalls both sides encountered in this process. If not, then at least we can all agree to disagree and move on.

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[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='17 June 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1276831311' post='2341435']
There was little further interaction from BCOM following the initial protectorate interview.
[/quote]

Something must have happened during the initial protectorate interview to cause that, perhaps.



[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1276882580' post='2342066']
Meh, I didn't do my homework.[/quote]

And with this in mind, you go on to give us your opinions?



[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1276893253' post='2342192']
I'm going to take a second and say honestly I've don't ever recall hearing about Pot or his history. But considering I'm still in retirement (aside from this thread) that's kinda a given. I don't... favor him... because he basically insulted Black and Noir as a whole a page or two back. He may know what he's doing, but that doesn't excuse his lack of respect.[/quote]

No deposit, no return.



[quote name='Fort Pitt' date='18 June 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1276897034' post='2342235']
I don't appreciate it when people leave the team on questionable grounds, and I don't like it when they leave the team blaming it for problems that they most likely were the cause of.[/quote]

Most likely, huh? Sounds like a little homework is in order. Here at BCOM, we don't think unless we know.





I think it's clear that we have made the right decision. And Fort, I sincerely hope that you're not speaking on behalf of NOIR. At this point it would be prudent to dismiss you from the discussion.

Honestly, it's amazing that this debate continues. BCOM has said what it said, it addressed its application to NOIR, and a few members of NOIR decided to show up and volunteer to show a little of what BCOM went through during its application process. We were not judged by merit, but by size and age alone, and although it's not BCOM's place to critique how others do their business, we will certainly take action accordingly. Metaphorically, when you hit a brick wall, you can either try to get around it, or you can stand there and stare at it like a nitwit and hope that one day, it will just.... go away. NOIR actually expected us to do the latter. And when that didn't work out, they became "offended".

And [u]that[/u] is how you end up with our OP.

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I've refrained from speaking here until now because I thought that the topic would have fizzled away long ago. Seeing that it hasn't, I'd like to present what was apparently the minority opinion amongst my NOIR colleagues. Actually, I might have been the only one in NOIR who felt this way.

One of the things I liked about NOIR was that there were no prerequisites in order to apply such as age, size or strength. Short of gross negligence and purposefully picking fights, I've always thought that age should not be a determining factor for admitting an alliance, and that it was best to 'catch them young' so to speak. What better time to catch upcoming tech sellers and potential trade circles? I'd rather take a hundred chances just to find that one diamond in the rough--as I said, barring gross negligence and purposefully picking fights. Those types aren't hard to spot, I think. And I have taken those chances, myself, in ventures outside of NOIR (as some of you already know).

On the other hand, one of the things I've always not liked so much, was the time frame. Having been on the receiving end of a rather lengthy application process back in the day, I can understand certain frustrations.


As for myself, I've had nothing but good experiences dealing with BCOM, and was happy to be the one to ask them to apply to NOIR. I'm sorry that it came down to this, in the end, however. I would rather have had my friends in BCOM stay with us on the Black sphere, of course, and in hind-sight, I probably shouldn't have put the bug in their ear to apply so soon. I think it was my own stubbornness and bias that made me try to sell each party to the other so strenuously, and for my part in nudging that first domino over, I must apologize.


I love my friends in and out of NOIR, whether we agree on a particular thing or not. I also don't mind what team they're on--though admittedly, I would have had a much more difficult time handling a switch to Pink. ;) Ultimately, their decision is what's best for them and I wish them well with it.



The Amazon Nation supports you. My friends on both sides of the table, let's shed this discussion in favor of better times to come. :wub:

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You are misquoting me, and only proving the point that you have no respect for people you don't agree with.

I didn't do my homework on the case of longest lasting unity bloc, to my previous understanding the only longer lasting unity bloc was BLEU, which as you all know is not around anymore, however RIA has corrected me. That, my friend is the lack of homework I was speaking of, hence why it was directly underneath the quote which corrected me on that matter.


BCOM was not ill treated during the application process, as Thrawn has already shown on the previous page. And as I have stated before, not ALL of Noir was against your entrance due to age (size has nothing to do with it). And like I have stated before, Noir contains elitist alliances along with your regular joes and lulzists, those elitists voted against your admittance on grounds of being too young. I disagree with that decision, but I had no voting power. I do believe in giving alliances chances, I don't believe in denying people for stupid reasons. However, Noir does not infringe on member alliance's rights to have opinions, and those opinions can unfortunately influence votes.

However, that is besides the point. The only problem, out of this entire ordeal, that I have with BCOM, is your decision to move to Brown. And in doing so, proceed to partially blame Noir for your problems on Black.

Patience is a virtue, young grasshopper.



EDIT: good post Rand

Edited by Fort Pitt
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I don't believe we actually Directed any blames to NOIR over this Move , as other BCOMrades have informed you that NOIR behaviour with BCOM was one of the reasons of our move not the only reason. So i don't see why this topic is still being discussed , we already made a move so there is no need to spark off anything here , we do not have any bad intentions over anyone or any sphere . So why don't you just leave the past and stop Creating such big issues over this.

We respect every alliance and i don't believe we wish to disrespect anyone.

So Just leave it .

Edited by oOoMidooOo
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If im honest this is all getting rather petty and i got bored after the 4th page, can we all please drop this or i might be forced to lose the will to live and go on a nuclear decommissioning program, the cheap way.

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[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='10 June 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1276226415' post='2332722']
Considering we offer help and support where others would not, it should be just fine.
[/quote]


[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='11 June 2010 - 02:25 PM' timestamp='1276280699' post='2333457']
Lack of support from fellow team neighbors can make even the largest sphere look empty.
[/quote]


[quote name='Tosh' date='13 June 2010 - 08:14 AM' timestamp='1276431260' post='2336094']
Good show, good luck with the change and may the alliance flourish on new ground. Black sphere is a little (<<understated) unfriendly.
[/quote]


[quote name='Blind Murder v2' date='15 June 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1276647273' post='2338844']
We applied to NOIR with no intentions of moving to brown, is was during the application process the interviews with current NOIR signatories, and [b]the unwelcoming actions of current NOIR signatories that gave us the idea of changing spheres[/b]. Along with the fact only [u]1[/u] alliance from the black sphere and NOIR made an attempt to befriend or even get to know BCOM, and that was AzN.

[/quote]


[quote name='Jrenster' date='16 June 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1276708361' post='2339601']
Maybe they were looking for hospitality. They've mentioned that they didn't receive that. It's clear that moving from Black to Brown is not an economic decision and yet you keep trying to make it seem that way.
[/quote]


[quote name='PotFace' date='17 June 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1276799215' post='2340811']
Naturally the best place for us to be would be an environment that is conducive to that. This excluded black (and NOIR) immediately. We can handle taking a leap of faith. And so can our allies.
[/quote]


[quote name='oOoMidooOo' date='19 June 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1276964492' post='2342940']
I don't believe we actually Directed any blames to NOIR over this Move
[/quote]

Seems to me like yourself and your new buddies are directing some blame, which is exactly what members of NOIR are responding to.

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You guys are aware that this back and forth isn't exactly making a good case for how friendly NOIR are? Well from my point of veiw anyway.

But regardless welcome to Brown BCOM I look forward to working with you guys in the future, on our non-economic sphere......

Edited by Grand Master Azreal
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