Sellers Revolution

[SeuwP]

I have recently joined cybernations, when I found out about selling 100 tech for 3 million i thaught "great! now i can make money quickly!", but then I found out how much it actually costs large nations to buy tech on their own and although I have only had one one tech deal so far I can only think about how I got ripped off and then how many other sellers must have gotten ripped off. I actually started thinking about it after reading someone elses post on my alliances forums, but I agree completely. So, what I say is ALL sellers out there UNITE and only sell 50 tech for 3 million. By doing this new nations will grow faster, and also may keep new nations active for easier money growing, yet all the larger nations will still save millions. Join me in my fight! and what would large nations do? buy tech for several million more on their own instead of paying our increased price? I dont think so...

[Arrith]

I have a strong feeling this is some sort of joke posting. Already many sellers get prices of 3 mil for 50 tech. But if ppl did what you want there would always be those ppl who realize that they can get tech deals easier now by offering 3 mil for 100 tech. Seriously, if you ppl are too lazy to go and get deals for 3 mil for 50 then I doubt they will join with you in making this. I never had any problem finding them.

[abdur]

[quote name='Arrith' date='06 June 2010 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1275874369' post='2327094']
I have a strong feeling this is some sort of joke posting. Already many sellers get prices of 3 mil for 50 tech. But if ppl did what you want there would always be those ppl who realize that they can get tech deals easier now by offering 3 mil for 100 tech. Seriously, if you ppl are too lazy to go and get deals for 3 mil for 50 then I doubt they will join with you in making this. I never had any problem finding them.
[/quote]
Doesn't really look like a joke thread to me.

Seuwp, how do you plan on Organizing all the sellers, to follow this rule?

[SeuwP]

@Arrith- from all manuals and wiki's about tech selling they all seem to say to sell 100 tech for 3 million so most new nations do that. Maybe more experienced nations will sell 50/3 mill, but alot of nations I have seen so far sell 100/3mill

@abdur- I hope if I make enough posts about it in enough places everyone will start to realize this should be common practice, not something only experienced players do. I am already putting the gears in motion in the UPN (although I dont know how effectively) to get 50/3mil in the guides.

[maxnmike]

Something you might not realize is that buyers don't always get all the tech they contract for. Most sellers are new nations that don't have a full understanding of how it all works. They buy too much tech and waste money, they forget, a lot of them just get bored and delete or get deleted. Then you have those few that are outright thieves who have no intention of sending the tech. It can be a huge pain for buyers if they have to nag the seller to send the tech they owe. That is why I don't even bother with tech deals outside of my alliance any longer. I am a lot more tolerant of mistakes or delays from nations within my alliance than those from without.

[SeuwP]

yes I have already witnessed buyers getting ripped off, but just because buyers will sometimes get ripped off doesnt mean sellers should always be ripped off with the 100/3mil. and maybe, just maybe, people wont quit as often when instead of 1.4 million profit over a 20 day transaction there will be a 2.2 million profit over a 10 day transaction, dont you think so?

Edited June 7, 2010 by SeuwP

[Sande]

Not again!
3 mil for 100 tech is a very good price.
Small nations can grow pretty fast with 3 mil for 100 tech deals.

[SeuwP]

it is a very good price, for BUYERS. Like I have said buyers will still save millions and younger nations can grow faster. If you are a large nation and you think 50/3mil is unreasonable then you are just greedy. Maybe I am a little greedy for wanting this, but there is NO way that I should EVER be considered more greedy than these large nations wanting the SUPER low prices.

[jer]

Double post :/ Apologies.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[jer]

Good luck with this.

Once you make $3m/50t the standard in UPN, be sure to spread the word of your alliance's preferential pricing by asking your recruitment guys to include it in their PMs, spreading the word in your IRC channel, and so on. It'll be a nice draw to your alliance and if you start hoarding all of the tech sellers hopefully it'll force other alliances to fall into line with their rates in order to compete.

Another idea is to advertise for deals in the [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showforum=62]Black Market[/url] by getting your tech-selling friends make their own thread each in which make it very clear that they're selling for $3m for 50t. Then when the other sellers who use that part of the forum see that you are managing to get a better deal, hopefully they'll be encouraged to get a better deal too.

Let us know how you get on!

Edited June 7, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Itsuki Koizumi]

lol i love all these newbies trying to force revolution. You do know that us veteran players have sold it at 100tech/3mil and a few years ago even 150tech/3mil. Think about what you're getting yourself into, selling at this rate will boost you up higher but that's only a small 2-4 months of a nation that could last years. You're screwing yourself over because eventually you have to face the consequences of this raised price yourself.

Refer to this thread for previous arguements: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77685

[asawyer]

We had this debate several months ago and it quickly devolved into both sides calling the other greedy for trying to set tech prices. The fact is 3/50 and 3/100 are both "fair" prices: either gives the seller a large financial boost with very little effort on their part, and gives the buyer tech at a fraction of the cost. The only people who get screwed over by changing prices are those who are transitioning from selling to buying (a group which, of course, includes me ) since they had to sell low and buy high.

I'd personally like to see the foreign aid cap for cash increased so we could have a more gradual shift in prices instead of automatic doubling.

[Bart99]

[quote]it is a very good price, for BUYERS. Like I have said [b]buyers will still save millions[/b] and younger nations can grow faster. If you are a large nation and you think 50/3mil is unreasonable then you are just greedy. Maybe I am a little greedy for wanting this, but there is NO way that I should EVER be considered more greedy than these large nations wanting the SUPER low prices.
[/quote]

Its not that the bigger nations are worried about giving out an extra 3 mil for every 50 tech they want (3 mil isnt much for big nations), but its the fact that we need more tech. 3m/100t is more than reasonable, it leaves the smaller nation with alot more profit than they would make without them, and it helps the bigger nations. I usually go in between and do 6m/150t, but i wont go any lower than that for now.

As stated earlier, if all sellers started selling at 3m/50t, there is basically no chance for players going from selling to buying to catch up to bigger nations, so it disadvantages you in the long run.

[SeuwP]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' date='07 June 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1275937196' post='2327967']
lol i love all these newbies trying to force revolution. You do know that us veteran players have sold it at 100tech/3mil and a few years ago even 150tech/3mil. Think about what you're getting yourself into, selling at this rate will boost you up higher but that's only a small 2-4 months of a nation that could last years. You're screwing yourself over because eventually you have to face the consequences of this raised price yourself.

Refer to this thread for previous arguements: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=77685
[/quote]

I am thinking about the future of cybernations as a whole. Dont you think less buyers would be ripped off and less nations would quit if only they had more profit out of a deal that didnt take as long? I will be willing to pay 50/3mil when I get to that point. I know as a new nation that 1.4 million doesnt go that far, maybe 2.2 wont go to much further, but I have thaught several times about quitting cybernations because i have to sit here waiting 20 days for a deal to go through only to end up with a small 1.4 million. If you think about this its simply inflation, something that must occure for the sake of new players. BTW, I do know the old prices of tech, ever since 2 days after I joined cybernations.

[SeuwP]

[quote name='Bart99' date='07 June 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1275948769' post='2328211']
Its not that the bigger nations are worried about giving out an extra 3 mil for every 50 tech they want (3 mil isnt much for big nations), but its the fact that we need more tech. 3m/100t is more than reasonable, it leaves the smaller nation with alot more profit than they would make without them, and it helps the bigger nations. I usually go in between and do 6m/150t, but i wont go any lower than that for now.

As stated earlier, if all sellers started selling at 3m/50t, there is basically no chance for players going from selling to buying to catch up to bigger nations, so it disadvantages you in the long run.
[/quote]

There is the same chance for you to catch up either way if you think about, either way you are both (small and large nations) getting 100/3mil or 50/3mil. Like I have said several times, I am not only doing this to help grow my nation, but to grow cybernations. Again, wouldnt you agree less nations would quit if they had 2.2 million profit over 10 days instead of having to wait 20 days for a small 1.4 million? And actually I was thinking about saying 50/2mil (sort of like you have said above), if only we could raise max foreign aid to 4 million (and if possible 100 tech), it would be completely acceptable, I think. I wish we could get 4 million for 100 tech, but with current caps it would take to long, I think it is more sensible for 50/3mil based mostly on the aid caps.

[jer]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' date='07 June 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1275937196' post='2327967']
lol i love all these newbies trying to force revolution. You do know that us veteran players have sold it at 100tech/3mil and a few years ago even 150tech/3mil. Think about what you're getting yourself into, selling at this rate will boost you up higher but that's only a small 2-4 months of a nation that could last years. You're screwing yourself over because eventually you have to face the consequences of this raised price yourself. [/quote]
I would think that people who argue for a better deal for tech sellers would be happy to pay a slightly higher price in future, a price which would not only be fairer but might encourage more sellers who could sell for longer. The whole premise of their arguments is based on giving a fair deal for everybody and not simply the fairest deal for them, so I highly doubt that they will start complaining about their own disadvantage in the rankings, or harping on about slot efficiency, etc. when it's there turn to buy because they'll be happy in the knowledge that everyone is getting a fair deal. If they were not happy about the deal when it's their turn to buy, they'd be going against their own previously held views which led to the situation in the first place, which would be pretty dumb.

It's understandable that you'd come to the wrong conclusion here, because you're projecting your point of view (that the nation should always be thinking about it's own interests above all others) onto the people arguing for $3m/50t, when in reality they have a completely different (and dare I say it, less selfish) idea of how the tech selling market should be run. You think they're unknowingly screwing themselves over, when in-fact they are purposefully (and perhaps even selflessly, when you bare in mind how much they are going to be 'screwed over' in future) working towards a fair deal for everyone.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Baldr]

[quote name='SeuwP' date='07 June 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1275951978' post='2328279']
I am thinking about the future of cybernations as a whole. Dont you think less buyers would be ripped off and less nations would quit if only they had more profit out of a deal that didnt take as long? [/quote]

Nobody is getting ripped off by doing 3/100 deals, and you are being insulting by claiming they are. Nobody is getting ripped off by doing 3/50 deals, either.

And you aren't thinking at all, or you wouldn't have 3 of your 5 aid slots doing absolutely nothing while you scream "I'm getting ripped off!".

[quote]BTW, I do know the old prices of tech, ever since 2 days after I joined cybernations.
[/quote]

Of course, you joined less than a month ago. Your idea of "old" doesn't mean much.

If I bought tech directly right now, 50 tech would cost me 11,149,250. So by your logic, if I paid 6M for 50, I'd still be getting a great deal. Someone with a lot of tech (I don't have all that much) should, according to you, be willing to pay even more, because they save even more money by buying this way compared to buying direct.

The same thing goes the other way. Would you consider it fair if everyone told you "I'll pay 900,000 for 50, because that's enough for you to make a little profit, and you are ripping me off if you charge more!"?

You need to look at more than just the money. There are aid slot limitations. I guarantee that if we didn't have a limited number of aid slots that could each transfer a very limited amount of aid, tech would be handled completely different. But those limitations are in place.

At 3/50 pricing, I can buy 2.5 tech a day with 1 slot. At 3/50/50, I can get 3.33 tech per day with each slot. 3/50/50 deals are simply more efficient, and with a limited number of aid slots, that's important.

You *think* that 3/50 is a better deal, that you make more money, and that everyone should do it.

But right now, you've got 2 aid slots in use, and 3 doing nothing. That means you could be doing a lot more business - but you have priced yourself so that you can't find enough buyers. Your aid slots are sitting empty. You are losing money that you could be making. Look up Opportunity Cost when you get a chance.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='07 June 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1275952887' post='2328291']
I would think that people who argue for a better deal for tech sellers would be happy to pay a slightly higher price in future, a price which would not only be fairer but might encourage more sellers who could sell for longer. [/quote]

Makes no sense they would sell for longer. With more profit, they'll grow faster, which means they'll get large enough to stop selling sooner.

[quigon jinn]

I'm selling tech for worse than 3M/100 and I am pretty sure I am handily benefiting from it.

I probably will attempt to switch to 3M/50 at the time those expire, but to say that offers worse than 3M/50 tech cannot benefit sellers is... really not the case.

I'm probably not going to be selling tech for a whole long time though, perhaps 120 days or so, because I'm on a fast track plan for nation growth, consisting of my first wonder at 45 days and hopefully beginning the tech purchase route at about four months or so.

[SeuwP]

[quote name='quigon jinn' date='09 June 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1276137518' post='2331074']
I'm selling tech for worse than 3M/100 and I am pretty sure I am handily benefiting from it.

I probably will attempt to switch to 3M/50 at the time those expire, but to say that offers worse than 3M/50 tech cannot benefit sellers is... really not the case.

I'm probably not going to be selling tech for a whole long time though, perhaps 120 days or so, because I'm on a fast track plan for nation growth, consisting of my first wonder at 45 days and hopefully beginning the tech purchase route at about four months or so.
[/quote]

I never said it cannot benefit sellers at 100/3mil, but from what I have found out the rate of buyers compared to sellers has gone up, and considering that prices should also go up. Buyers still save alot and sellers benefit more.Period.

[SeuwP]

[quote name='Baldr' date='09 June 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1276136558' post='2331044']
Makes no sense they would sell for longer. With more profit, they'll grow faster, which means they'll get large enough to stop selling sooner.
[/quote]

BUT like I have said several times (which you should really read) maybe less people will quit the game which will increase number of sellers.

[SeuwP]

[quote name='Baldr' date='09 June 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1276136276' post='2331041']
Nobody is getting ripped off by doing 3/100 deals, and you are being insulting by claiming they are. Nobody is getting ripped off by doing 3/50 deals, either.

And you aren't thinking at all, or you wouldn't have 3 of your 5 aid slots doing absolutely nothing while you scream "I'm getting ripped off!".



Of course, you joined less than a month ago. Your idea of "old" doesn't mean much.

If I bought tech directly right now, 50 tech would cost me 11,149,250. So by your logic, if I paid 6M for 50, I'd still be getting a great deal. Someone with a lot of tech (I don't have all that much) should, according to you, be willing to pay even more, because they save even more money by buying this way compared to buying direct.

The same thing goes the other way. Would you consider it fair if everyone told you "I'll pay 900,000 for 50, because that's enough for you to make a little profit, and you are ripping me off if you charge more!"?

You need to look at more than just the money. There are aid slot limitations. I guarantee that if we didn't have a limited number of aid slots that could each transfer a very limited amount of aid, tech would be handled completely different. But those limitations are in place.

At 3/50 pricing, I can buy 2.5 tech a day with 1 slot. At 3/50/50, I can get 3.33 tech per day with each slot. 3/50/50 deals are simply more efficient, and with a limited number of aid slots, that's important.

You *think* that 3/50 is a better deal, that you make more money, and that everyone should do it.

But right now, you've got 2 aid slots in use, and 3 doing nothing. That means you could be doing a lot more business - but you have priced yourself so that you can't find enough buyers. Your aid slots are sitting empty. You are losing money that you could be making. Look up Opportunity Cost when you get a chance.
[/quote]

A point I will try to now make from your words (because of how much tech you say costs you directly) wth would big nations (like you) care about this price increase???? you are still saving ALOT. So does it matter if all sellers increase to you (except for the fact you seem greedy)? And yes I have slots open, but I dont exactly spend lots of time looking for deals, I dont go in IRC and ive advertised 2 places so far in areas where there are many other offers (around half that are 50/3mil). I know several people with completely filled foreign aid slots that sell at the 50/3mil.

[asawyer]

[quote name='SeuwP' date='09 June 2010 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1276143118' post='2331228']
A point I will try to now make from your words (because of how much tech you say costs you directly) wth would big nations (like you) care about this price increase???? you are still saving ALOT. So does it matter if all sellers increase to you (except for the fact you seem greedy)?[/quote]

The price change wouldn't matter one bit [i][b]if [/b][/i] all tech buyers were the exact same size. The issue is you have some people with 10,000+ tech who have been buying at 3/100 for years and others with less than 1000 tech that just started buying. By doubling the price, you will gradually widen the gap between mid-tier and top-tier nations. I don't blame sellers for trying to get better deals, it's just unfortunate that those in the middle will get screwed.

Interesting to think how this parallels real-world economics and a squeeze on the middle class...

[SeuwP]

[quote name='asawyer' date='10 June 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1276194547' post='2331868']
The price change wouldn't matter one bit [i][b]if [/b][/i] all tech buyers were the exact same size. The issue is you have some people with 10,000+ tech who have been buying at 3/100 for years and others with less than 1000 tech that just started buying. By doubling the price, you will gradually widen the gap between mid-tier and top-tier nations. I don't blame sellers for trying to get better deals, it's just unfortunate that those in the middle will get screwed.

Interesting to think how this parallels real-world economics and a squeeze on the middle class...
[/quote]

The "middle-class" will still save money, a bit less, but the same will happen for large nations to. I do understand the point you are trying to make, but I do not believe it will be that bad.

[Fernando12]

I agree with the rate the OP is talking about but doubt this will lead to any real Seller Revolution.

Within FAR, we do $3mil/50tech so that our members can receive $30mil in a 20 days span. If they spend it correctly, they can grow from zero infra (nation creation) to 1,999 infra within those 20 days. That will give them a very good collection to work with to continue to back collect their way up to 3,999 infra. Plus of course doing tech deals throughout that time at that rate. By their third back collection day they should easily be at or very near 3,999. It is very hard to do cuz no matter what we say we still get some that spend the cash on day one and collect daily and don't understand or didn't read our guide despite having said they read and understand.

I personally like this rate as well even when selling outside of the alliance, but I ask my tech selling foreign alliance partners for the 50tech up front so I get what I pay for. I will never pay $3mil/100tech because I simply do on trust new players to stay in the game to deliver the tech. I rather give them the incentive of if they want to have this awesome rate then they will send me tech again after the $3mil payment slot expires. This way I get what I pay for and if they go inactive and quit then I get 50 free tech.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Fernando12