On Efficiency

[Captain Enema]

Is work going to stop leaving me an exhausted mess at the end of every single humid day? Is the woman going to stop...

Err..

yeah anyway.. soon.

[Kaede Alexeivich]

Perhaps tech should play a part in RP, yes...but I think there is much too much emphasis on how much tech a nation has. Because of this, lowtech nations are almost certain to be completely annihilated by larger nations, which makes it very unbalanced and unfair for the lower tech nations.

[JerreyRough]

[quote name='Kaede Alexeivich' date='03 June 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1275622509' post='2323048']
Perhaps tech should play a part in RP, yes...but I think there is much too much emphasis on how much tech a nation has. Because of this, lowtech nations are almost certain to be completely annihilated by larger nations, which makes it very unbalanced and unfair for the lower tech nations.
[/quote]
Well that's because they don't adapt. People always think about war in CNRP like Star Wars: The Clone Wars; the one with more men or better guns wins the battles, and eventually the war. No one truly uses the warfare of the 21st century: wars without uniforms.

If I were to have a nation again, I would take full advantage of having Afghan-level technology and use guerrilla warfare tactics. We need these stats because people need to learn that you don't need flying laser cannons and air superiority to win modern battles. This isn't a video game or a movie that we should be trying to make. This isn't Modern Warfare or Star Wars (as far as low tech vs low/medium/high tech nation wars). Besides, having a drawn out war can be more fun to roleplay, since you can develop characters and the troubles & horrors of war more. This isn't applying towards major wars with people having massive armies and tons of tech (unless they want it to, but highly "educated" nations tend to not have many people supporting backstabbing guerrilla warfare), just us low tech people.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='JerreyRough' date='04 June 2010 - 06:17 AM' timestamp='1275628660' post='2323165']
Well that's because they don't adapt. People always think about war in CNRP like Star Wars: The Clone Wars; the one with more men or better guns wins the battles, and eventually the war. No one truly uses the warfare of the 21st century: wars without uniforms.

If I were to have a nation again, I would take full advantage of having Afghan-level technology and use guerrilla warfare tactics. We need these stats because people need to learn that you don't need flying laser cannons and air superiority to win modern battles. This isn't a video game or a movie that we should be trying to make. This isn't Modern Warfare or Star Wars (as far as low tech vs low/medium/high tech nation wars). Besides, having a drawn out war can be more fun to roleplay, since you can develop characters and the troubles & horrors of war more. This isn't applying towards major wars with people having massive armies and tons of tech (unless they want it to, but highly "educated" nations tend to not have many people supporting backstabbing guerrilla warfare), just us low tech people.
[/quote]

This is why I love you Jerrey...if I could see it in so many words.

[Captain Enema]

The only problem with that Jerrey is getting the person who rolled you to allow an insurgency. The last time I saw someone attempt one they got told no because that would be role playing someone else's population. Mind you.. this population was formerly his.. he just lost it in one of those fanpile wars. Simply put, most RPers don't have the grit for that sort of thing.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='04 June 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1275660875' post='2323412']
The only problem with that Jerrey is getting the person who rolled you to allow an insurgency. The last time I saw someone attempt one they got told no because that would be role playing someone else's population. Mind you.. this population was formerly his.. he just lost it in one of those fanpile wars. Simply put, most RPers don't have the grit for that sort of thing.
[/quote]

My theory on it is if he never "surrendered" or RPed movements that would begin their assaults when the enemy least expects it, I would be game for that. I think it'd be fun, especially if both sides were planning it out as a sort of internal RP.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='JerreyRough' date='04 June 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1275628660' post='2323165']
Well that's because they don't adapt. People always think about war in CNRP like Star Wars: The Clone Wars; the one with more men or better guns wins the battles, and eventually the war. No one truly uses the warfare of the 21st century: wars without uniforms.

If I were to have a nation again, I would take full advantage of having Afghan-level technology and use guerrilla warfare tactics. We need these stats because people need to learn that you don't need flying laser cannons and air superiority to win modern battles. This isn't a video game or a movie that we should be trying to make. This isn't Modern Warfare or Star Wars (as far as low tech vs low/medium/high tech nation wars). Besides, having a drawn out war can be more fun to roleplay, since you can develop characters and the troubles & horrors of war more. This isn't applying towards major wars with people having massive armies and tons of tech (unless they want it to, but highly "educated" nations tend to not have many people supporting backstabbing guerrilla warfare), just us low tech people.
[/quote]

You could eradicate an insurgency in real life, you'd just have to eradicate many civilians and deal with international outcry after it's all said and done. But in CNRP, international outcry can be dismissed if you've got a big enough stick, or a friend willing to lend his stick to you. But yeah, that's assuming someone wanted to be a douche about an insurgency and not want to play around with the concept.

Lastly, in regards to the OP I feel IG stats should have a large effect in CNRP...it is CNRP, not RP. We should not delude the IG aspect of it to appease the masses.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='04 June 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1275680705' post='2323652']
You could eradicate an insurgency in real life, you'd just have to eradicate many civilians and deal with international outcry after it's all said and done. But in CNRP, international outcry can be dismissed if you've got a big enough stick, or a friend willing to lend his stick to you. But yeah, that's assuming someone wanted to be a douche about an insurgency and not want to play around with the concept.

Lastly, in regards to the OP I feel IG stats should have a large effect in CNRP...it is CNRP, not RP. We should not delude the IG aspect of it to [b]appease the masses.[/b]
[/quote]

Appease the masses? Is it not the 'masses' that make up this 'community'? Would you not be appeasing the community by appeasing the masses? Or perhaps the masses you seek to appease are the ones that are 'mass[b]ive[/b]'?

[Fizzydog]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='04 June 2010 - 09:14 AM' timestamp='1275660875' post='2323412']
The only problem with that Jerrey is getting the person who rolled you to allow an insurgency. The last time I saw someone attempt one they got told no because that would be role playing someone else's population. Mind you.. this population was formerly his.. he just lost it in one of those fanpile wars. Simply put, most RPers don't have the grit for that sort of thing.
[/quote]
Me and Jed had a n insurgent vs soldier fight with my NTR supporters after NTR was destroyed.

They even got a tank and he didn't call shuns. It was fun and he won, but still: F-U-N.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 June 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1275684198' post='2323718']
Appease the masses? Is it not the 'masses' that make up this 'community'? Would you not be appeasing the community by appeasing the masses? Or perhaps the masses you seek to appease are the ones that are 'mass[b]ive[/b]'?
[/quote]

hahahah i see what you did there and I find myself supporting the above statement.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 June 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1275684198' post='2323718']
Appease the masses? Is it not the 'masses' that make up this 'community'? Would you not be appeasing the community by appeasing the masses? Or perhaps the masses you seek to appease are the ones that are 'mass[b]ive[/b]'?
[/quote]

I'll admit, your post was very clever. That said, no I don't want to appease the majority of the community, I seek to appease the status quo; which yes does benefit my massive ego/nation.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Owned-You

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='04 June 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1275704514' post='2324019']
I'll admit, your post was very clever. That said, no I don't want to appease the majority of the community, I seek to appease the status quo; which yes does benefit my massive ego/nation.


[/quote]

At least you admit it.

Seriously, I'm at the point where either route won't help me at all. Bolster the little ones and I get it, bolster the big ones and I get it. That being said, efficiency is pretty... inefficient for all the potential OOC squabbles that come with it. I'm pretty sure if this thread came up back when I was cold war I'd be up in arms over the oppression of the IG heavy weights, but now, I find myself just wishing to see smoother warring come from it. Fairer warring can come after.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 June 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1275705819' post='2324033']
At least you admit it.

Seriously, I'm at the point where either route won't help me at all. Bolster the little ones and I get it, bolster the big ones and I get it. That being said, efficiency is pretty... inefficient for all the potential OOC squabbles that come with it. I'm pretty sure if this thread came up back when I was cold war I'd be up in arms over the oppression of the IG heavy weights, but now, I find myself just wishing to see smoother warring come from it. Fairer warring can come after.
[/quote]

Well, my only real concern amplified to an extreme is seeing hundreds of nations under 3k tech RP'ing supersonic stealth jets, invisible battle-ships, rail-guns, etc. As long as there is a tech-scale and a IG basis for things I'm fine with it...pure RP however I am not. As again, that takes the whole basis of [b]CN[/b]RP from our experience. As I could RP a nation anywhere, I can only RP a nation based on CN here. Hence my complaint to throwing out IG stats as a determining basis of conflict and development. Maybe the current system needs a bit of refinement, but it does not need to be done away with outright in my opinion.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='04 June 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1275706255' post='2324039']
Well, my only real concern amplified to an extreme is seeing hundreds of nations under 3k tech RP'ing supersonic stealth jets, invisible battle-ships, rail-guns, etc. As long as there is a tech-scale and a IG basis for things I'm fine with it...pure RP however I am not. As again, that takes the whole basis of [b]CN[/b]RP from our experience. As I could RP a nation anywhere, I can only RP a nation based on CN here. Hence my complaint to throwing out IG stats as a determining basis of conflict and development. Maybe the current system needs a bit of refinement, but it does not need to be done away with outright in my opinion.
[/quote]

But this thread was never about throwing out IG. It was about throwing out the efficiency scale, a draconian formula that basically determined wars' outcomes outright, without RP. The tech scale wasn't going to be touched as far as I know.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 June 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1275706750' post='2324044']
But this thread was never about throwing out IG. It was about throwing out the efficiency scale, a draconian formula that basically determined wars' outcomes outright, without RP. The tech scale wasn't going to be touched as far as I know.
[/quote]

Well, yes IG stats should determine outcomes. Sure, we should all RP things a lot more in conflicts; but if we based war-outcomes on RP'ing alone then I suspect we will see many disputes over things in nations above 1st-world tech. As in reality, if the tech-scale isn't being altered then the little ones will still be trumped by the bigger nation irregardless of this efficiency scale. Thus, this formula only really effects 1st-world nations and helps to distinguish the nations with say 3k tech, over those with 1.5k tech in a military sense. As if we are still basing things on IG stats, the outcomes will always favor those larger IG wise. RP'ing will lead to far too many gray areas to determine a victor...which is only going to complicate things beyond the need too.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='04 June 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1275710257' post='2324128']
Well, yes IG stats should determine outcomes. Sure, we should all RP things a lot more in conflicts; but if we based war-outcomes on RP'ing alone then I suspect we will see many disputes over things in nations above 1st-world tech. As in reality, if the tech-scale isn't being altered then the little ones will still be trumped by the bigger nation irregardless of this efficiency scale. Thus, this formula only really effects 1st-world nations and helps to distinguish the nations with say 3k tech, over those with 1.5k tech in a military sense. As if we are still basing things on IG stats, the outcomes will always favor those larger IG wise. RP'ing will lead to far too many gray areas to determine a victor...which is only going to complicate things beyond the need too.
[/quote]

Alright, I get that. Why not extend the scale past 1.5k tech then?

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='04 June 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1275710257' post='2324128']
Well, yes IG stats should determine outcomes. Sure, we should all RP things a lot more in conflicts; but if we based war-outcomes on RP'ing alone then I suspect we will see many disputes over things in nations above 1st-world tech. As in reality, if the tech-scale isn't being altered then the little ones will still be trumped by the bigger nation irregardless of this efficiency scale. Thus, this formula only really effects 1st-world nations and helps to distinguish the nations with say 3k tech, over those with 1.5k tech in a military sense. As if we are still basing things on IG stats, the outcomes will always favor those larger IG wise. RP'ing will lead to far too many gray areas to determine a victor...which is only going to complicate things beyond the need too.
[/quote]
If someone RPed for several months of building massive border fortifications, I expect the attacker player to RP heavy losses while trying to overrun the defender player's fortifications which might result in the "larger IG stats" attacker being the loser.

If it was on an open field, the person with the bigger stats will win.

[Zoot Zoot]

Says the guy with 100 ton fighters and fighters that fight at mach 5.8.
HHAYD, Mudd RP'd his defences for probably that long, and in quite alot of detail aswell, and now hes gone.

they dont mean anything. Static defences on a large scale will lose, and ill be damned if im gonna lose 3/4 of my army because [i]somebody[/i] pulls the TE card and says "lolmyborderpwnedyoucosyourtechiscrap".

And the bigger statted person wont always win, currently they will becuase of the TE, but cnRP, which is essentially what a war is, a massive text based wargame [b]roleplay[/b], and so long as people dont enter the douchbaggery mode, any RP war is open ended, if you RP the war well enough you can win a draw, or even win it, IF the TE is abolished.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='05 June 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1275740632' post='2324456']
Says the guy with 100 ton fighters and fighters that fight at mach 5.8.
HHAYD, Mudd RP'd his defences for probably that long, and in quite alot of detail aswell, and now hes gone.

they dont mean anything. Static defences on a large scale will lose, and ill be damned if im gonna lose 3/4 of my army because [i]somebody[/i] pulls the TE card and says "lolmyborderpwnedyoucosyourtechiscrap".

And the bigger statted person wont always win, currently they will becuase of the TE, but cnRP, which is essentially what a war is, a massive text based wargame [b]roleplay[/b], and so long as people dont enter the douchbaggery mode, any RP war is open ended, if you RP the war well enough you can win a draw, or even win it, IF the TE is abolished.
[/quote]

There needs to be a combination and balance between CN and RP. The TE means jack diddly in war if you truly think about it. TE, like Lynneth said, is for two people fighting on an open, flat, plain. Terrain, fortifications, etc, play a part. If Mudd RP'd his defenses, then you will RP casualties. The attacker is at a horrible disadvantage when the defender is a prepared army, especially when you're invading their homeland.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 June 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1275712392' post='2324185']
Alright, I get that. Why not extend the scale past 1.5k tech then?
[/quote]

We could try something like that. But then it would force many people who have RP'd current tech to re-scale it...and not to forget it would be pulling teeth just to redetermine a new scale entirely.

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='05 June 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1275753570' post='2324583']
There needs to be a combination and balance between CN and RP. The TE means jack diddly in war if you truly think about it. TE, like Lynneth said, is for two people fighting on an open, flat, plain. Terrain, fortifications, etc, play a part. If Mudd RP'd his defenses, then you will RP casualties. The attacker is at a horrible disadvantage when the defender is a prepared army, especially when you're invading their homeland.
[/quote]

I agree with you, we need to have a combination between CN & RP; not outright favoring one over the other.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='05 June 2010 - 07:24 AM' timestamp='1275740632' post='2324456']
Says the guy with 100 ton fighters and fighters that fight at mach 5.8.
HHAYD, Mudd RP'd his defences for probably that long, and in quite alot of detail aswell, and now hes gone.

they dont mean anything. Static defences on a large scale will lose, and ill be damned if im gonna lose 3/4 of my army because [i]somebody[/i] pulls the TE card and says "lolmyborderpwnedyoucosyourtechiscrap".

And the bigger statted person wont always win, currently they will becuase of the TE, but cnRP, which is essentially what a war is, a massive text based wargame [b]roleplay[/b], and so long as people dont enter the douchbaggery mode, any RP war is open ended, if you RP the war well enough you can win a draw, or even win it, IF the TE is abolished.
[/quote]
Those fighters are meant to distract enemy aircraft by throwing dozens after dozens of AA missiles. Any enemy fighter who tries to get too close would get chased by a few dozen depending on how many were fired. That would result in loss of stealth, maneuverability, speed, and dog-fighting capability. As for the fighters flying at mach 5.8, those are easy to detect. They sacrificed stealth and high maneuverability for speed. Real interceptors are designed to hit enemy aircraft, especially bombers, at high speed.

Anyways, back on topic, I agree that if the attackers have large enough IG stats they would crush the defender even if the defender RPed a decent border defense. However, when both sides have similar stats, then whoever has to march against static defenses might lose.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Owned-You' date='05 June 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1275767996' post='2324816']
We could try something like that. But then it would force many people who have RP'd current tech to re-scale it...and not to forget it would be pulling teeth just to redetermine a new scale entirely.
[/quote]
I don't think he means eliminate what's available at each level, or even chsnge the levels. I think he means add more levels.

[quote name='Owned-You' date='05 June 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1275767996' post='2324816']
I agree with you, we need to have a combination between CN & RP; not outright favoring one over the other.
[/quote]
We do, as Lynneth said. He attacked Kaiser Martens' border defenses once, and he didn't go loltech and simply steamroll them...he RP'd fair casualties.

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='05 June 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1275776662' post='2325123']
I don't think he means eliminate what's available at each level, or even chsnge the levels. I think he means add more levels.


We do, as Lynneth said. He attacked Kaiser Martens' border defenses once, and he didn't go loltech and simply steamroll them...he RP'd fair casualties.
[/quote]

I don't see how we could add any levels without changing them...Unless we try and do some differentials between levels of 1st world tech, but I think that would be a bit complicated.

[Executive Minister]

Indeed, I meant add to the scale past 1.5k, leave the lower ones. Perhaps something to determine who is 'firster' amongst the first world [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img].

It won't be easy, but its a start.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='05 June 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1275790289' post='2325570']
Indeed, I meant add to the scale past 1.5k, leave the lower ones. Perhaps something to determine who is 'firster' amongst the first world [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img].

It won't be easy, but its a start.
[/quote]

2015... 2020... 2025... 2030... 2035... etc.