Celestial Being Announcement

[Stumpy Jung Il]

15 million is insignificant and Gramlins wont listen. Now people can stop !@#$%*ing and let WC do whatever he wants. I really don't see what all the fuss is about but it would appear that if one even mentions Gramlins these days it sparks a 100 page thread about nothing significant.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='27 May 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1274976799' post='2313571']
Only people I see here whining and complaining are from \m/.
[/quote]


There is a healthy dose of Hypocrisy.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='27 May 2010 - 08:36 AM' timestamp='1274967366' post='2313464']
WC, while I did find merit in your original cause of supporting young nations and small alliances (even if I did laugh inside at the irony) I can find no merit in this action you have taken. In this case I find you to be out of line. Both Iron and Gramlins are long established alliances, both capable of making and defending their own FA decisions. I have difficulty understanding how you can justify attempting to impose your moralistic views on Gramlins in this instance. If you look at the root cause of the present situation, Iron, in this case, was the initiatory of hostile actions. Iron made a decision to bring war onto themselves.

You are attempting, through the use of propaganda to force your moralistic ideals upon an alliance who was on the defensive side of a war Iron started. Who are you to decide how this war should end? What possible justification can you put forth for aiding an alliance that willfully brought war upon so many with little more cause than wanting to destroy a rival power while they were viewed as being in a weak position?
[/quote]

I'm at a loss here, really. I can't understand for the life of me how, IRON and Gramlins being established alliances mean we can or can not help one of them, or intervene in the conflict. There is simply no connection between the two. Also, if demanding unconditional surrender before reps are outlined, is in fact wrong, then it make no difference that IRON preemptively attacked CnG. Wrong is wrong, not matter how you package it. The \m/ posters in this thread are grabbing for logical straws here. I don't know why they are embarrassing themselves for the sake of Gramlins, who have pretty much shown they don't care what we think, what is done to help IRON, or about the destruction of their alliance

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='27 May 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1274971011' post='2313507']
IRON is kinda winning the war :|
[/quote]

CnG & Co won the war against TIFDIT and Co.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='27 May 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1274979048' post='2313616']
That's because of the obvious difference: by aiding Grämlins you're supporting unconditional surrender as a concept, and by aiding IRON/DAWN, you're opposing it. There's 180 pages over in World Affairs explaining why pretty much everyone agrees it is not something we want to see.


Yeah, with their convenient raid of TBB and then coming to bat for Grämlins in this thread (with a few individual exceptions) I'm beginning to wonder if they actually do support Grämlins' agenda.
[/quote]

Irelevant, it is still aiding someone at war, I thought that was a bit well, erm obvious, regardless if you think it is right and I think it is wrong or vise versa , it won't change the fact that they are at war. you cant have it both ways. I personally do not care who aids who, what I do laugh about, is people crying in Bilrows thread about gremlins being aided tech, then some of the same people here are praising CB actions. Flopping around much? I think so.

And yet again for the 100th time, TBB getting smashed was nothing to do with Gremlins, You keep trying to spin that? He is an $@!, he is dissliked, he presented himself on a silver platter and thus got hit by people that dissliked him. If I was smaller I would have jamp in too.

As far as supporting agendas, I hope both alliances smash themselfes into oblivion, I couldn't care for either, I just like the drama and entertainment that some people provide me with.

[Grimm Reaper]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='27 May 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1274979126' post='2313619']
There is a healthy dose of Hypocrisy.
[/quote]

Is that my logical fallacy detector that's going off? Why, I believe it is!

"Sergeant! What does the detector say about his fallacy level?"

"IT'S OVER NINE-"

"You are not to quote internet memes unless instructed!"

"Yes, captain. It's a false equivalence."

So, yes, you would be correct if the conducts of the two sides were exactly the same. They are not, however, the same, so it should not be pretended that they are.

As you were, Sarge.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Grimm Reaper' date='27 May 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1274979865' post='2313629']
Is that my logical fallacy detector that's going off? Why, I believe it is!

"Sergeant! What does the detector say about his fallacy level?"

"IT'S OVER NINE-"

"You are not to quote internet memes unless instructed!"

"Yes, captain. It's a false equivalence."

So, yes, you would be correct if the conducts of the two sides were exactly the same. They are not, however, the same, so it should not be pretended that they are.

As you were, Sarge.
[/quote]

Ahh right, because joining there allies in a war with no valid CB is acting differently to gremlins attacking them directly without a valid CB, i understand now

Sarge you need to jump off that clydesdale you're riding.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='27 May 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1274980059' post='2313634']
Ahh right, because joining there allies in a war with no valid CB is acting differently to gremlins attacking them directly without a valid CB, i understand now

Sarge you need to jump off that clydesdale you're riding.
[/quote]
Yes because aiding allies is the wrong thing to do.[img]http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/467/nsosmugsmall.png[/img]

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='27 May 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1274980548' post='2313641']
Yes because aiding allies is the wrong thing to do.[img]http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/467/nsosmugsmall.png[/img]
[/quote]

Ofcoarse it's not wrong in aiding your ally, but to sit there and claim it's anything less than scallywag antics by jumping on another alliance with NO valid CB, is just as bad as Gremlins attacking you without a VALID cb.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='27 May 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1274980694' post='2313645']
Ofcoarse it's not wrong in aiding your ally, but to sit there and claim it's anything less than scallywag antics by jumping on another alliance with NO valid CB, is just as bad as Gremlins attacking you without a VALID cb.
[/quote]
We declared war in defense of STA, and the NpO. Later counter-declared on Fark so we could try to keep TC out of the war.
As for IRON, they may have messed up but we don't betray our allies. You may spin it as much as you want.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='27 May 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1274981349' post='2313652']
We declared war in defense of STA, and the NpO. Later counter-declared on Fark so we could try to keep TC out of the war.
As for IRON, they may have messed up but we don't betray our allies. You may spin it as much as you want.
[/quote]


Sorry, when I said you I was meaning IRON, sorry for causing you confusion, I should have made myself clearer. You are correct that IRON are as bad as Gremlins are, yet people paint a different picture, the only difference is Gremlins want IRON to surrender before terms, People could view that as harsh (im sure 99% do) really I couldn't care less, if they think they are going to win then kudos to them. Just like I would not really care if IRON reversed the surrender stipulations for Gremlins. Back to my point, I really don't see a problem in anyone aiding people in war, but what grates me is some of the same people flopping around and suddenly changing there attitude when the aiding is reversed. Be consitent in your (not your specific arguement but people in general) arguement is all I'm getting at.

Edited again: I could go into Bilrows thread and post some quotes form people that have posted in here and you would see the flopping. but OOC[I have a wedding to go to]

Edited May 27, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Grimm Reaper]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='27 May 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1274980059' post='2313634']
Ahh right, because joining there allies in a war with no valid CB is acting differently to gremlins attacking them directly without a valid CB, i understand now

Sarge you need to jump off that clydesdale you're riding.
[/quote]

Oh, good. This thread is about CBs now and not conduct during war.

[King Srqt]

I love how people who feel this is so insignificant seem to get so riled up over it.

Good show WC/CB.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='27 May 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1274981644' post='2313656']
Sorry, when I said you I was meaning IRON, sorry for causing you confusion, I should have made myself clearer. You are correct that IRON are as bad as Gremlins are, yet people paint a different picture, the only difference is Gremlins want IRON to surrender before terms, People could view that as harsh (im sure 99% do) really I couldn't care less, if they think they are going to win then kudos to them. Just like I would not really care if IRON reversed the surrender stipulations for Gremlins. Back to my point, I really don't see a problem in anyone aiding people in war, but what grates me is some of the same people flopping around and suddenly changing there attitude when the aiding is reversed. Be consitent in your (not your specific arguement but people in general) arguement is all I'm getting at.

Edited again: I could go into Bilrows thread and post some quotes form people that have posted in here and you would see the flopping. but OOC[I have a wedding to go to]
[/quote]
I never said IRON was just as bad as Gre, I don't support any alliance that likes the idea of unconditional surrender. And its that reason why people get upset when you try to aid Gre since they're supporting that ideal.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='27 May 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1274977721' post='2313593']
CN Values change day by day Doch. You should know this. Today we preach values about something, tomorrow we change. It is because of that reason, I never trust any alliance saying these are our values.[/quote]

Some people's values don't change. i am fairly certain that Ninjas have their own set of values and standards. does this mean you do not trust your own alliance?




[quote]I'm not upset. All I am stating is, aid IRON, fine, but don't call it something like "these are our values". I see no problem aiding either IRON or Gremlins. Sometimes, to me it seems when alliances post on the OWF, saying these same lines "we've had enough of this !@#$. Our values are this. It is being broken therefore we are going to support this side" I take it as nothing more then a PR stunt.
[/quote]

then that is your opinion but regardless it is ignorant in its formation as you take into account only your own preconceived notions instead of actual facts as your evidence.

[WarriorConcept]

What people don't seem to understand is we know our donation in this matter is small, and gremlins could very well overlook it. That suits us fine, then maybe other alliances will realize there are no repercussions to aiding IRON and DAWN and maybe more support will come in, to the point that gremlins cannot ignore it. At that point they can try to fight everyone, call on their allies for support and find that well possibly missing, or finally be sane enough to accept white peace. If they choose to attack us, well I have other alliances who've been offering lots of support so we'll see what happens then. If their allies attack us instead, it's a PR nightmare because those chants of "gremlins enablers" will become true and they'll be pushing themselves into a corner on the political landscape.

Basically what we're saying is that we're forcing the issue to speed this war up and hope for it to finally end, as that is the ultimate goal. And heck our aid will at least help some IRON nations be able to fight more effectively, and for some reason I don't expect us to remain the only alliance to be sending out aid to IRON over the coming days

[Kim Jaym Il]

I like how this has turned into a proxy war.

[Smooth]

I love you guys. A lot.

o/

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='27 May 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1274982369' post='2313670']
Some people's values don't change. i am fairly certain that Ninjas have their own set of values and standards. does this mean you do not trust your own alliance?[/quote]

No I don't. Not completely. Over a period of time our values will change. When that happens, what we stood for before would have completely changed. Perfect Example are Gremlins: From being one of the most well respected alliances in the game because of their various values and the way they (OOC: Play this game) to now being one of the most disliked because their values have changed. They play this game differently now. Every alliance has changed and evolved, with evolution the very value's it was built on will change to come in level with the evolution going in place.

[quote]then that is your opinion but regardless it is ignorant in its formation as you take into account only your own preconceived notions instead of actual facts as your evidence.
[/quote]

One act cannot change my opinion. If they are consistent, then I guess some sense could be nailed into my head. Till they are consistent with what they preach, every such thread would be regarded as a PR attempt.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='27 May 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1274985079' post='2313706']
No I don't. Not completely. Over a period of time our values will change. When that happens, what we stood for before would have completely changed. Perfect Example are Gremlins: From being one of the most well respected alliances in the game because of their various values and the way they (OOC: Play this game) to now being one of the most disliked because their values have changed. They play this game differently now. Every alliance has changed and evolved, with evolution the very value's it was built on will change to come in level with the evolution going in place.



One act cannot change my opinion. If they are consistent, then I guess some sense could be nailed into my head. Till they are consistent with what they preach, every such thread would be regarded as a PR attempt.
[/quote]

How about referring to our whole existence thus far, which you know I have covered in the first 2 paragraphs of this very thread.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='26 May 2010 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1274930501' post='2312998']

As you all should know, Celestial Being was founded as an alliance dedicated to doing what we feel is right. From the very beginning we've been for helping the raided victims when we could because we feel it is wrong. While we respect others opinions on the matter, we must hold ourselves accountable in order to make sure that we not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. As such we immediately set out to message nations that have come under unjust attack and worked with them and the attacker in order to acquire peace before giving them asylum as long as they needed as well as any financial aid they might need, which to date has totaled well over $60 million.

But we didn't stop there, we also pushed for helping alliances that are trying to start out on this Planet but come under attack for no reason other than personal greed. We, with the help of other great alliances, have formed the Freedom of the Seas Pact and have been actively working to help upcoming alliances with help when we could, as evident with the recent ERA temporary protectorate that was announced not too long ago.[/quote]

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='27 May 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1274985079' post='2313706']
No I don't. Not completely. Over a period of time our values will change. When that happens, what we stood for before would have completely changed. Perfect Example are Gremlins: From being one of the most well respected alliances in the game because of their various values and the way they (OOC: Play this game) to now being one of the most disliked because their values have changed. They play this game differently now. Every alliance has changed and evolved, with evolution the very value's it was built on will change to come in level with the evolution going in place.[/quote]

what Gremlins did was a complete reversal of their values from before. most alliances tend to have values that evolve, but most alliances tend to maintain the same values they always had. for example, VE to my knowledge, tended to be anti-P/EZI and still are. Polaris has always been anti-techraiding and still are. some values may evolve but most do not tend to do a complete reversal of their values as Gremlins have done. evolving values=/=different values.


[quote]One act cannot change my opinion. If they are consistent, then I guess some sense could be nailed into my head. Till they are consistent with what they preach, every such thread would be regarded as a PR attempt.
[/quote]

they have aided several tech raid victims and protected a couple of small alliances in order to not have them be tech-raided. so there are a few more examples than just this one act.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='27 May 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1274985241' post='2313709']
How about referring to our whole existence thus far, which you know I have covered in the first 2 paragraphs of this very thread.
[/quote]

It has been only 4 months since the current Celestial Being was reformed WC. Since then yes you have done quite a number of good deeds, but I expect a lot more before I change my opinion. Aiding IRON at this point of time, seems to be more a move to win cookie points from the peanut gallery because everyone is riding on Gremlins hate.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='27 May 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1274986316' post='2313723']
It has been only 4 months since the current Celestial Being was reformed WC. Since then yes you have done quite a number of good deeds, but I expect a lot more before I change my opinion. Aiding IRON at this point of time, seems to be more a move to win cookie points from the peanut gallery because everyone is riding on Gremlins hate.
[/quote]

Fair enough, and when you start noting our "changing values" please let us know as well. Granted the whole point of this whole call out IS to get more public attention, outcry, and action against what is being done by gremlins, so it's only natural that it's a good deed and will get praise.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='27 May 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1274985758' post='2313715']
what Gremlins did was a complete reversal of their values from before. most alliances tend to have values that evolve, but most alliances tend to maintain the same values they always had. for example, VE to my knowledge, tended to be anti-P/EZI and still are. Polaris has always been anti-techraiding and still are. some values may evolve but most do not tend to do a complete reversal of their values as Gremlins have done. evolving values=/=different values. [/quote]

That is because of the evolution within the Gremlins that there has been such a reversal. When the old crew left, it evolved Gremlins. Gremlins could only become better or worse. Their values completely changed. The very values they held changed over time, it evolved into what we are seeing. Their values of upholding the honour of this game, has now given them the arrogance that they are the moral crusaders to do what is right. Such as holding IRON in warfare unless IRON unconditionally surrenders to them.

[quote]they have aided several tech raid victims and protected a couple of small alliances in order to not have them be tech-raided. so there are a few more examples than just this one act.
[/quote]

Protecting alliances, is what everyone does. The only notable thing they did was protecting ERA. That was a bold move which I liked. The freedom of the sea's pact is still new. It could change in the future who would know. It's been barely four months since CB reformed, while they have done quite a bit, only with time and consistency would make me change my mind.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='27 May 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1274986454' post='2313726']
Fair enough, and when you start noting our "changing values" please let us know as well. Granted the whole point of this whole call out IS to get more public attention, outcry, and action against what is being done by gremlins, so it's only natural that it's a good deed and will get praise.
[/quote]

Noted. I'll keep in touch