Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Brutal Psychoticus]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1274371044' post='2305231']

Or perhaps those casualties shot up during the early part of the war and then you fled into peace mode when you had a chance to do so.
[/quote]

How easily you sling mud without facts... Warrants no response as it is just vitriol.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1274371044' post='2305231']
My grudge is against Pacifica as a whole, not you as an individual. If you want to continue this argument then I am going to continue to argue against you with points about the actions made by your alliance.

You did not make a mistake in the same sense. The fact you are willing to acknowledge your alliance’s past policies were in error is something I can admire, and it shows that even if the NPO as a whole are unable to change and accept the past was truly a mistake you are. However, they were intentional actions which were made while they were fully aware of all facts, not simply an error made as a result of lack of information.

As for your second point, might I remind you of this:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26172&view=findpost&p=688985

In the PMs we used to speak and negotiate reparations for your actions you did not deny that you had been a part of the GATO-1V war. Thus that later part is a lie.

Not until they show signs that they are truly improving and developing beyond the cowards and thugs that the members of the New Pacific Order always have been. If they show signs of development, or if they disband and finally die out, then I will forget the actions they made.

But as far as I am concerned the results of the Karma War, the war in which you supposedly paid for your previous crimes against the alliances you destroyed, crushed and beat into submission, were light. They did not reflect the magnitude of your actions nor were they sufficient punishment.

Then why are you so willing to drag up a minor infraction which had previously been settled and finished if you do not hold such a grudge yourself.

As stated above the reason I hold a grudge is because the NPO has not changed. If it begins to change and develop into something better than it is now, then I will begin to forget. What was done is something which cannot be truly forgiven but that does not mean that I will hold them against you in the future if you truly begin to develop.
[/quote]

That was Gato-1V? I'm lacking a military badge then somewhere. I'll have to get in touch with milcom about getting that badge. Sorry, so many wars. I thought GATO-1V was older than 2008. My mistake. Not a lie, more like a confusion about which exact war. I'm no CN historian, that's for certain.

So what is sufficient punishment to you? Do you want the NPO community destroyed? Consider what you're asking and its implications to the community as a whole. I tell you now it would not do this world well to see over 600 people potentially lost to the winds of time. Not in the state it is already in.

I assure you I've seen many changes from within the Order and we are definitely far from the policies we utilized in the past. Cortath is an Emperor who demonstrates a grace I have not seen in prior leadership. If what you are concerned about is us being good at building ourselves up.. being constructive, you have much to fear.. as far as oppression, I know of no plans for revenge, retaliation, or oppression as of yet. I don't think it's a path we would even want to think of taking at this point.

As for why I bring it up: Because you brought up an ancient infraction, I figured ancient infractions were fair game. There is nothing that can't be forgiven unless you don't want it to be forgiven. I do not hold a grudge against you. I have forgiven you for that incident, but I'm not going to let you stand here and smear my brothers and sisters when you.. yourself.. are not pure. I realize your argument is that the magnitudes of the infractions are different, but that doesn't diminish my argument that you are a holding a grudge despite change. It is not up to you alone as to the magnitude of our punishment. It is up to the community as a whole. They made their decision.. a decision good for all of us.. and we were disciplined.. and now you need to let it go.

As for blood lust: I seek to destroy my enemies to the best of my ability until they are not my enemies. They after all, are seeking the same of me. That does not mean an enemy cannot become a friend in time. What would you prefer I do? Stand aside while my foes ran-sack my country?

Edited May 20, 2010 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Vladimir]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1274371044' post='2305231']
If you want to continue this argument[/quote]
Yep, there's your problem.

Nobody actually [i]wants[/i] to discuss matters with you, you just obsessively insert yourself into every discussion involving the Order, or about the Order, or that a Pacifican is partaking in, or that in any way relates to the colour blue, and pollute it with your ignorance. The result is that people feel a [i]duty[/i] to correct your ridiculous views, not realising that you are incapable of critical thought, and as a result end up going round in eternal circles over the same long-debunked points supporting the same long-debunked narrative.

Why don't you calm down and let the Emperor pour you some tea? I promise no one's going to sneak up behind you with a straight-jacket.

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='20 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274370285' post='2305213']
I guess I just subscribe to the logic that any nation with a sizable NS is a bank nation.
[/quote]

Our bank nations are required to send the full amount of 18 million every 10 days. That is what makes our banks important in today's world. While every large nation is a bank in a way. Having a group of nations willing to help grow our ranks is the Pacifican way.

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Timeline' date='20 May 2010 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1274371811' post='2305253']
Now come on, you are going to proclaim that your "sizable and organized group of nations" are the reason you are ranked second place, I mean the TOP & Co. Vs CnG had nothing to do with you going to number two ?, or the fact that the score is based on many things, one important thing is the number of nations an alliance has, so the fact you have more then two times the number of nations that GPA has is the only reason you are above them.

please the EGO boosting of NPO twisting facts and well pretty much thinking they are above everyone else really needs to stop, you are only number two becuase in the last war you hid behind your terms, nothing more nothing less, now before you run of at the mouth claiming such things as "we respected the terms given to us" or the laughable reason, "we had no treaties to get in on the war" keep in mind that not everyone believed that NPO canceled their treaties as pure the terms, also we all know the only reason that NPO stayed out of this last war was becuase of your own selfish reasons, also that would be the reason you are number two, not NPO's banks
[/quote]

Hmm, you're right. Totally right. The bankers were able to send monetary aid to get nations back on their feet. The recruiters were able to bring in new nations, keeping our size up. The Body Republic was able to pull together to keep the sense of camaraderie that we needed to complete terms intact. The military and political teams were able to ensure that we did not step on any land mines through the whole experience.

You're right, it wasn't just the banks. We're just such a well put together alliance that we can't give all the credit to just one group.

o/ to the entire NPO!

[Axolotlia]

omg...

o/ Pacifica

[Letum]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1274371044' post='2305231']
I am going to continue to argue against you with points about the actions made by your alliance.
[/quote]

Also known as: "distract people away from my actions by railing against something I hate".

[quote]
Now come on, you are going to proclaim that your "sizable and organized group of nations" are the reason you are ranked second place, I mean the TOP & Co. Vs CnG had nothing to do with you going to number two ?, or the fact that the score is based on many things, one important thing is the number of nations an alliance has, so the fact you have more then two times the number of nations that GPA has is the only reason you are above them.

please the EGO boosting of NPO twisting facts and well pretty much thinking they are above everyone else really needs to stop, you are only number two becuase in the last war you hid behind your terms, nothing more nothing less, now before you run of at the mouth claiming such things as "we respected the terms given to us" or the laughable reason, "we had no treaties to get in on the war" keep in mind that not everyone believed that NPO canceled their treaties as pure the terms, also we all know the only reason that NPO stayed out of this last war was becuase of your own selfish reasons, also that would be the reason you are number two, not NPO's banks
[/quote]

A horse has four legs, so everything with four legs is a horse?

You're converting my statement falsely. We wouldn't be at number 2 without our banks. We also wouldn't be at number 2 if we hadn't received peace. We wouldn't be at number 2 if no 2nd Unjust War had happened. We wouldn't be at number 2 if people didn't hold together. We wouldn't be at number 2 if our terms were lighter. A multitude of factors result in the present situation.

There is no boosting of ego or twisting of facts, and I am quite surprised you have such a profound reaction to a statement about the logic behind our policy. Since the war, we have doubled our NS, something which would have been much harder if our nations had to rely on warchests to rebuild themselves before rebuilding others. If you factor in the variation of combat and tenacity ability between high-profile and less active fighters, but their similar economic ability; as well as the security offered by banks in the face of an uncertain level of combat, then the case for a preservation of rebuilding power is fairly strong. You may not necessarily agree with it, but if you are going to disagree, please present counter-arguments rather than attributing motivations to our statements.

[Sir Glen]

This moment is truly awesome. To all my friends and allies in the New Pacific Order, my (second) favorite alliance; Congratulations! A new day has truly dawned, and its damn beautiful.

Hail Cortath, Mary, and all the other great men and women of the New Pacific Order!
Hail the New Pacific Order; her ideals, visions, honor, strength and unity. Franco's Star truly shines brightly.

I wish I could have been among the first to congratulate you but I've been out of town with limited internet :-/, such is life.

[ShinRa]

[quote name='Brutal Psychoticus' date='20 May 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1274371879' post='2305255']
How easily you sling mud without facts... Warrants no response as it is just vitriol.
[/quote]

How easily you label statements without any grounding to be facts.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' date='20 May 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1274371888' post='2305256']
So what is sufficient punishment to you? Do you want the NPO community destroyed? Consider what you're asking and its implications to the community as a whole. I tell you now it would not do this world well to see over 600 people potentially lost to the winds of time. Not in the state it is already in.[/quote]

To see Pacifica itself destroyed would be a fitting punishment, to be fully destroyed with no chance of being resurrected and the ridiculous ideology of Francoism erased.
It depends upon the people individually to see what their fate would be. Those who gave out the orders and led the order to try and totally dominate Bob deserve far more severe a punishment than those who joined later on.

And those who attempted to alter and twist factual information to portray Pacifica in a good light during such times.

[quote]I assure you I've seen many changes from within the Order and we are definitely far from the policies we utilized in the past. Cortath is an Emperor who demonstrates a grace I have not seen in prior leadership. If what you are concerned about is us being good at building ourselves up.. being constructive, you have much to fear.. as far as oppression, I know of no plans for revenge, retaliation, or oppression as of yet. I don't think it's a path we would even want to think of taking at this point.[/quote]

This wouldn’t happen to be the same Emperor Cortath who threw out a former member of Vox Populi as a result of having a sense of humor would it. Because after such an action I have every reason to doubt any sincerity he might have in developing Pacifica beyond a group of cowards with guns who target the weak and hide behind allies.

Again, if Pacifica begins to grow beyond this then I will not hold past events against them later on into the future. If it does not change or even grows to be worse then the grudges remain.

[quote]As for why I bring it up: Because you brought up an ancient infraction, I figured ancient infractions were fair game. There is nothing that can't be forgiven unless you don't want it to be forgiven. I do not hold a grudge against you. I have forgiven you for that incident, but I'm not going to let you stand here and smear my brothers and sisters when you.. yourself.. are not pure. I realize your argument is that the magnitudes of the infractions are different, but that doesn't diminish my argument that you are a holding a grudge despite change. It is not up to you alone as to the magnitude of our punishment. It is up to the community as a whole. They made their decision.. a decision good for all of us.. and we were disciplined.. and now you need to let it go.
[/quote]

At this stage I have no reason to forgive Pacifica. I have stated why previously and I stand by those reasons and what I shall do if you improve. Until then the same grudges and ill wishes shall remain.

And no, it is not up to me to judge the magnitude of your punishment. But I still regard the reparations and damages done to be relatively light in comparison to the crimes of Pacifica. Thus far I have no reason to not hold you to them, and their severity does not mean you can simply be forgiven without any proof that you wish to become better people.

[quote name='Letum' date='20 May 2010 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1274372450' post='2305275']
Also known as: "distract people away from my actions by railing against something I hate".[/quote]

Alternatively "Letum doesn't bother to read half the damn statement and makes random insults."

Edited May 20, 2010 by ShinRa

[Cager]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='20 May 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1274371724' post='2305249']
If you find yourself on the wrong side of a curbstomp, sack your alliance government for one that can politic better.
[/quote]

Can't overthrow the Emperor brah. Not how the NPO works.

[King Srqt]

Congrats, I hope you use your new found freedom wisely.

[Thrash]

Congrats guys, it's about time!

[Letum]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1274372868' post='2305281']
To see Pacifica itself destroyed would be a fitting punishment, to be fully destroyed with no chance of being resurrected and the ridiculous ideology of Francoism erased.
[/quote]

Francoism transcends many realms. To "erase" it, you would have to hunt it down amongst them. Are you sure you can do that? I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to dislodge it from this one.

[quote]Alternatively "Letum doesn't bother to read half the damn post and makes random insults."[/quote]

That wasn't an insult. Did you think our replies were such? That might explain why you seem to be in such need of a nice cup of tea.

No, I think it is quite an apt description of your attempts to dodge any discussion on your inappropriate actions.

[MagicalTrevor]

[quote name='Timeline' date='20 May 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1274371811' post='2305253']
Now come on, you are going to proclaim that your "sizable and organized group of nations" are the reason you are ranked second place, I mean the TOP & Co. Vs CnG had nothing to do with you going to number two ?, or the fact that the score is based on many things, one important thing is the number of nations an alliance has, so the fact you have more then two times the number of nations that GPA has is the only reason you are above them.

please the EGO boosting of NPO twisting facts and well pretty much thinking they are above everyone else really needs to stop, you are only number two becuase in the last war you hid behind your terms, nothing more nothing less, now before you run of at the mouth claiming such things as "we respected the terms given to us" or the laughable reason, "we had no treaties to get in on the war" keep in mind that not everyone believed that NPO canceled their treaties as pure the terms, also we all know the only reason that NPO stayed out of this last war was becuase of your own selfish reasons, also that would be the reason you are number two, not NPO's banks
[/quote]
It all makes sense now...

[Chief Savage Man]

NPO did the UJW to preserve the top spot. c/d

[ShinRa]

[quote name='Letum' date='20 May 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1274373364' post='2305288']
Francoism transcends many realms. To "erase" it, you would have to hunt it down amongst them. Are you sure you can do that? I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to dislodge it from this one.[/quote]

Then it is impossible for Pacifica to have a fitting punishment for all it has done.

[quote]That wasn't an insult. Did you think our replies were such? That might explain why you seem to be in such need of a nice cup of tea.

No, I think it is quite an apt description of your attempts to dodge any discussion on your inappropriate actions.
[/quote]

You state incorrect comments then accuse me that I am using hatred to make people ignore what you regard to be my own flaws. It’s something which is wrongly stated and is used to try and hold me in a bad slight, thus I categorise it as an insult. Unless you can create a more fitting term?

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='20 May 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1274370671' post='2305220']
Fair enough, but that begs the question of what should happen if you are embroiled in a war long enough to destroy most of your nations infra and expend their warchests.
[/quote]

This is not how "begs the question" works.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='21 May 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1274373482' post='2305291']
NPO did the UJW to preserve the top spot. c/d
[/quote]
D. I'm pretty sure the first one was Polar too.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='20 May 2010 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1274357104' post='2304952']
ewww Cortath, the only thing that should go in a decent cup of Earl Grey is a slice of lemon
[/quote]

That is vile, and no such thing shall be served in Pacifica.

[quote name='benjaminperdomo' date='20 May 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1274370047' post='2305202']
Not scared at all. I just wanted to get that clear, since NPO is a treaty partner. I hate misunderstandings from small things.
[/quote]

We've created a long and enduring bond with our friends at GATO, and we know that the half-mad rants of one of your members does not represent your government.


ShinRa:

Come now, good sir. It is not every day that I offer tea. I do pour it very well. Let us have tea? Perhaps I should be more clear, there will be scones as well, mine shall have baby blood glaze, but yours can have a glaze of any other fruit of your choosing, for I, sir, am a gentleman.

[Letum]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1274373633' post='2305293']
You state incorrect comments then accuse me that I am using hatred to make people ignore what you regard to be my own flaws. It’s something which is wrongly stated and is used to try and hold me in a bad slight, thus I categorise it as an insult. Unless you can create a more fitting term?
[/quote]

My comments were pretty spot on. You have clearly not acted correctly, and I applaud you for admitting as much; however you have also clearly devoted very little effort to address that topic, instead preferring to talk about the alliance closest to your heart. Whilst I understand why you might want to do so; especially given the sensitivity that equating things which put you in a bad light as insults, I would say that coming to proper terms with your past would be a great improvement for you.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1274372868' post='2305281']
How easily you label statements without any grounding to be facts.

To see Pacifica itself destroyed would be a fitting punishment, to be fully destroyed with no chance of being resurrected and the ridiculous ideology of Francoism erased.
It depends upon the people individually to see what their fate would be. Those who gave out the orders and led the order to try and totally dominate Bob deserve far more severe a punishment than those who joined later on.

And those who attempted to alter and twist factual information to portray Pacifica in a good light during such times.

This wouldn’t happen to be the same Emperor Cortath who threw out a former member of Vox Populi as a result of having a sense of humor would it. Because after such an action I have every reason to doubt any sincerity he might have in developing Pacifica beyond a group of cowards with guns who target the weak and hide behind allies.

Again, if Pacifica begins to grow beyond this then I will not hold past events against them later on into the future. If it does not change or even grows to be worse then the grudges remain.

At this stage I have no reason to forgive Pacifica. I have stated why previously and I stand by those reasons and what I shall do if you improve. Until then the same grudges and ill wishes shall remain.

And no, it is not up to me to judge the magnitude of your punishment. But I still regard the reparations and damages done to be relatively light in comparison to the crimes of Pacifica. Thus far I have no reason to not hold you to them, and their severity does not mean you can simply be forgiven without any proof that you wish to become better people.

Alternatively "Letum doesn't bother to read half the damn statement and makes random insults."
[/quote]

So, in summary: You are judging us on past actions we have paid for according to community desires. You believe yourself to have a higher standard than the community to which we are to be upheld meaning we are only worthy of destruction unless we have changed. You do not believe we have changed, but you do not know if we have changed, but you continue to rail against us anyway despite not knowing with a certainty whether or not there is any true alteration to our behavior. You still think we have done far more damage than we have paid for, despite the community as a whole thinking otherwise. The only way for you to get past this is to let time heal the wounds and prove out whether or not we have changed.

Very well. Give us time. You'll see the difference. Until then, could you relent on pressing judgments when we have only just exited prison? Would you toss an inmate who has served his sentence to society back in jail simply because you disagreed with the judge even though he just literally stepped out of the gates of the prison and has done nothing wrong yet? Would you slander that person even though they've cleared their record by the standards of the courts?

I note, usually when you do such things it is you who end up jailed again, not the ex-inmate.

In short: Give it a break. Come back to it later when you actually have something new on us to place before the judge?

And Letum.. well.. don't mind him, he pokes fun at everyone. Even me at times. Seriously it isn't anything personal, well.. maybe it is.. you never know with Letum.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Il Impero Romano]

Good luck and godspeed.

[Letum]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' date='20 May 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1274374116' post='2305304']
And Letum.. well.. don't mind him, he pokes fun at everyone. Even me at times. Seriously it isn't anything personal, well.. maybe it is.. you never know with Letum.
[/quote]

I do not think "poke fun" is an accurate metaphor for our nightly love parties.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Letum

[ShinRa]

[quote name='Letum' date='20 May 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1274374089' post='2305302']
My comments were pretty spot on. You have clearly not acted correctly, and I applaud you for admitting as much; however you have also clearly devoted very little effort to address that topic, instead preferring to talk about the alliance closest to your heart. Whilst I understand why you might want to do so; especially given the sensitivity that equating things which put you in a bad light as insults, I would say that coming to proper terms with your past would be a great improvement for you.
[/quote]

It is Pacifica that I hold a grudge against, not Vortex. If he wishes to dig up hold grudges and wounds in the actions which relate to me, actions which I have repented for, then I shall hold him to actions taken by Pacifica, which as I am concerned have not been apologised for or corrected. Largely due to the fact he is a member of it.

You know little of what is being spoken about, little of the results around it, and little of the debate and final conclusion which took place. Furthermore you were not directly involved in it in any way, and it does not relate to you. As far as I am concerned you are simply using it as an excuse to try and counter my many points and arguments against Pacifica. To blackname me and by extension insult me.
The subject of my attack upon him hours after the end of the Karma war is a matter which was dealt with and ended.

[Letum]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='20 May 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1274374438' post='2305311']
The subject of my attack upon him hours after the end of the Karma war is a matter which was dealt with and ended.
[/quote]

Unlike the NPO's past actions, which will only be dealt with when I, and the rest of my comrades, are six feet under the earth.

Glad we understand each other.