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[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='18 May 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1274235088' post='2302747']
Would GOONS swallow their pride and accept all terms given to them should they surrender to their enemies?
[/quote]
Methrage was given, I think, seven different term conditions which he turned down every time. That is, seven different chances for him to get peace by accepting terms. And due to the nature of the terms asked, they got progressively easier for him to fulfill, but he still said no every time. Methrage wanted a white peace. He didn't want to do anything we asked of him. It's not about fairness or opportunity, it's about Methrage being too proud to take peace and admit to any wrongdoing. Being so stubborn, he would've eventually been driven into the ground. But TOP decided to step in. They asked us flat what it would take to end it. We offered basically what we offered Methrage the first time, converted it into money format, and they accepted.

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[quote]Should a GOONS member bite off more than he can chew and get beaten up while attacking an unaligned nation, he does not have an expectation of backup from other nation, unless the beating up comes from members of a recognized alliance, in which case this may be taken as an act of war on their behalf.[/quote]

I like this.

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[quote name='Beefspari' date='18 May 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1274235717' post='2302777']
Methrage was given, I think, seven different term conditions which he turned down every time. That is, seven different chances for him to get peace by accepting terms. And due to the nature of the terms asked, they got progressively easier for him to fulfill, but he still said no every time. Methrage wanted a white peace. He didn't want to do anything we asked of him. It's not about fairness or opportunity, it's about Methrage being too proud to take peace and admit to any wrongdoing. Being so stubborn, he would've eventually been driven into the ground. But TOP decided to step in. They asked us flat what it would take to end it. We offered basically what we offered Methrage the first time, converted it into money format, and they accepted.
[/quote]

You seem to have evaded the question. Would GOONS swallow their pride and accept all terms given to them should they surrender to their enemies? It's a simple question, as it seems a few of you believe that Methrage should have immediately accepted the first terms he received.

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[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' date='18 May 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1274235686' post='2302774']
So he's not joining TOP? You mean people actually [i]paid money[/i] to release the most mentally unstable person on Planet Bob, and he's not joining the alliance that paid it off?
[/quote]
I think that, first, you're close to cross the OOC/IC line with that "most mentally unstable" comment. Second, I already clarified that it wasn't TOP, as an alliance, that is paying the money. Government wasn't involved in this. A group of us were concerned and wanted to put an end to this so Methrage could achieve peace. I dealt with Sardonic directly and we settled on the 90m figure. I am not TOP's government, in fact none of the senders are.

Our reasoning is fairly simple: Methrage has been a stalwart friend, ally and comrade in arms while in Citadel (the bloc) and he deserves a second chance as a free nation.

He will be free to go wherever he wishes.

Edited by Yevgeni Luchenkov
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[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='18 May 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1274236153' post='2302789']
You seem to have evaded the question. Would GOONS swallow their pride and accept all terms given to them should they surrender to their enemies? It's a simple question, as it seems a few of you believe that Methrage should have immediately accepted the first terms he received.
[/quote]

No, we will disband again if we are defeated.

Edited by Sardonic
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[quote name='Barnaby von Farter' date='18 May 2010 - 10:01 PM' timestamp='1274234486' post='2302730']
You hail from an alliance that operated under the premise that each organization on Planet Bob has the sovereign right to attempt to do whatever they like. A premise that I happen to agree with, to answer your question.

How do you feel about it? You never really said one way or the other.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Just because an alliance can do something does not mean it is acceptable, just, and tolerable. PZI is one thing that the NSO does not do, nor do I see us ever condoning it.[/color]

[quote name='Choson' date='18 May 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1274235709' post='2302775']
Being on the Enemies of GOONS list is not the same as Perma-Zero Infrastructure. There is no permanence to being on the EoG list. A person can be there as short a time or as long a time as they want.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]That is the definition of PZI. War until peace is achieved. And often it won't be easy to get. So yes, you can skirt around it all you like, but your EoG list is essentially a PZI list.

OOC: Writing a four act play about pedophilia and drug abuse was the term you gave to Methrage. Seriously, what kind of self-respecting person would take that term?[/color]

Edited by Rebel Virginia
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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='18 May 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1274236430' post='2302799']
[color="#0000FF"]Just because an alliance can do something does not mean it is acceptable, just, and tolerable. PZI is one thing that the NSO does not do, nor do I see us ever condoning it.[/color]
[/quote]

Good thing we do not PZI, as I, and others, stated earlier.

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='18 May 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1274236430' post='2302799']
[color="#0000FF"]Just because an alliance can do something does not mean it is acceptable, just, and tolerable. PZI is one thing that the NSO does not do, nor do I see us ever condoning it.[/color]
[/quote]
The more you call it PZI, the more it stays not being PZI.

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[quote name='ktarthan' date='19 May 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1274236266' post='2302792']
That's been there from day one.
[/quote]

So this is totally contrary to the "Pro Piracy Act" where you help raiders who are being beaten . Is "Pro Piracy Act" still valid?

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[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='18 May 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1274236153' post='2302789']
You seem to have evaded the question. Would GOONS swallow their pride and accept all terms given to them should they surrender to their enemies? It's a simple question, as it seems a few of you believe that Methrage should have immediately accepted the first terms he received.
[/quote]
I personally would have done ANY ONE of the terms offered to Methrage. In fact, I'm the one in charge of doing the terms in most cases. One of his terms was to draw a comic. I did a comic JUST FOR FUN in one of the threads he made on our forum. One of his terms was to give up a portion of his tech (as reps, since he doesn't have cash). Rather than give us 1400 tech (or 900 tech the second time it was on the table), he said no, he'd rather have perpetual war in which we'd get the tech through GAs anyway (and by that point had already gained 600 in the 1800 -> 1200 decline). Let me restate that. Methrage would rather fight us eternally and have us destroy/steal all his tech than just give it to us, if it means he doesn't have to admit he did anything wrong.

Yes. I would swallow my "pride" and accept terms given to me. Because Methrage wouldn't even give us a "sorry" if we had asked him to.

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[quote name='D34th' date='18 May 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1274236541' post='2302807']
So this is totally contrary to the "Pro Piracy Act" where you help raiders who are being beaten . Is "Pro Piracy Act" still valid?
[/quote]
The Pro Piracy Act of 2009 has nothing to do with GOONS members. It is to promote tech raiding among unaligned raiders. It has no stipulations as to whether or not the raid is performing badly. The recipient of the aid is simply eligible to join GOONS. I doubt they'd get further aid if the war went south.

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[quote name='Beefspari' date='18 May 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1274235717' post='2302777']
Methrage was given, I think, seven different term conditions which he turned down every time. That is, seven different chances for him to get peace by accepting terms. And due to the nature of the terms asked, they got progressively easier for him to fulfill, but he still said no every time. Methrage wanted a white peace. He didn't want to do anything we asked of him. It's not about fairness or opportunity, it's about Methrage being too proud to take peace and admit to any wrongdoing. Being so stubborn, he would've eventually been driven into the ground. But TOP decided to step in. They asked us flat what it would take to end it. We offered basically what we offered Methrage the first time, converted it into money format, and they accepted.
[/quote]

Yes, Methrage was talking out both sides of his mouth here. In front of an audience of just GOONS (OOC: Our forums or private query in IRC) he would cringe, cower and talk about how many times we'd ZIed him, how well we'd fought, how we'd taken all joy out of his life and he was considering leaving Bob, etc.

Then in front of others he would talk about how the secret flow of aid would let him keep fighting for forever, bragging about how he was winning, how many nuclear weapons he'd fired off, how the GOONS would get sick of him and let him go because he was too difficult to contain, his plans to recruit for and expland his alliance etc.

In the end peace hit a major roadblock he wanted a slap on the wrist. I theorize this was because if he'd had to pay any kind of meaningful reps it would have been a blatant contradiction to the "I'm winning line." We refused to let him go without paying something meaningful given his aid to CSA, the number of nuclear weapons he'd fired off, etc.

On a slightly different note, I'd like to point out that in someways focusing on ZI has as a punishment is meaningless, depending on the wonders / aid flow a person has. In Methrage's case he would get dropped to a ZI or near ZI state, get some secret aid and build up to 1k infrastructure and grab a nuclear weapon via his wonders. Thus you can easily ZI someone multiple times without it crippling their nation. Methrage kept trying to play the ZI card everytime we had talks, ignoring the fact that despite all these ZIs, he was still getting his hands on a nuke at least once every ten days. End of the day, despite all the screaming over ZI, he could have been back at prewar strength infra strength in 45-90 days (assuming a fair aid flow in) and then rebuilt a warchest from there.

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='18 May 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1274236430' post='2302799']
[color="#0000FF"]That is the definition of PZI. War until peace is achieved. And often it won't be easy to get. So yes, you can skirt around it all you like, but your EoG list is essentially a PZI list.

OOC: Writing a four act play about pedophilia and drug abuse was the term you gave to Methrage. Seriously, what kind of self-respecting person would take that term?[/color]
[/quote]

No, it isn't the definition of PZI. PZI is permanent, which means unending, hence why it is used in that term. EoG is not permanent.

OOC: Seriously, he could have wrote something completely fictional and hilarious, and we would have kept it completely private. Plus, there were other terms he could have accepted and focusing on this particular one is really disingenuous.

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='18 May 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1274236430' post='2302799']
[color="#0000FF"]That is the definition of PZI. War until peace is achieved. And often it won't be easy to get. So yes, you can skirt around it all you like, but your EoG list is essentially a PZI list.
[/quote]

Actually, as they haven't stated whether or not they would attempt to attack new nations with similar names, it is really more of a ZI list. PZI implies that the nation ruler will be attacked no matter how many times they reform their government.

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[quote]
[b]Wartime[/b]
While GOONS will endeavor to maintain peaceful relations with all recognized alliances (except FEAR), they accept that there are times when diplomacy must be continued by other means.
[/quote]

What a charming display of immaturity...

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[quote name='Choson' date='18 May 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1274235709' post='2302775']
Being on the Enemies of GOONS list is not the same as Perma-Zero Infrastructure. There is no permanence to being on the EoG list. A person can be there as short a time or as long a time as they want.
[/quote]

well that is not entirely true. A person will be on the EoG list for as long as it takes them to pay whatever reps GOONS deemed necessary. So depending on how long it takes the nation to pay off the reps would dictate how long they are on the EoG and possibly how long they suffer from ZI, which would of course make paying off reps that much harder, which would inevitably lengthen the time on the EoG, which would mean that said nation is ZIed even longer and so on and so forth.

Is there a way for someone on the EoG to gain a ceasefire to rebuild in order to pay the reps? or will they just continue to be attacked and expected to pay reps at the same time?

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1274238874' post='2302862']
well that is not entirely true. A person will be on the EoG list for as long as it takes them to pay whatever reps GOONS deemed necessary. So depending on how long it takes the nation to pay off the reps would dictate how long they are on the EoG and possibly how long they suffer from ZI, which would of course make paying off reps that much harder, which would inevitably lengthen the time on the EoG, which would mean that said nation is ZIed even longer and so on and so forth.

Is there a way for someone on the EoG to gain a ceasefire to rebuild in order to pay the reps? or will they just continue to be attacked and expected to pay reps at the same time?
[/quote]
Reps are very very rarely part of the process to be removed from the EoG list. The only real reason we offered that option to Methrage was that he already had a surplus of tech, which we asked for a portion of.

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Good to see GOONS allies cashing in their checks. Surely an alliance not on that side would've been rolled and then some had they pulled off half the stunts GOONS have. The difference is GOONS has the right allies to back up their thuggery. Good show, Umbrella/GOONS.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1274238874' post='2302862']
well that is not entirely true. A person will be on the EoG list for as long as it takes them to pay whatever reps GOONS deemed necessary. So depending on how long it takes the nation to pay off the reps would dictate how long they are on the EoG and possibly how long they suffer from ZI, which would of course make paying off reps that much harder, which would inevitably lengthen the time on the EoG, which would mean that said nation is ZIed even longer and so on and so forth.

Is there a way for someone on the EoG to gain a ceasefire to rebuild in order to pay the reps? or will they just continue to be attacked and expected to pay reps at the same time?
[/quote]
It wouldn't make sense to fight him while he's giving us tech. Especially since his bills would be outrageous with ZI due to all his improvements and wonders. Obviously, we would have let up if he had gone the tech route. But he wasn't interested. TOP stepped in to do what Methrage should have been able to do himself, but was too proud to do.

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[quote name='ktarthan' date='18 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1274239009' post='2302866']
Reps are very very rarely part of the process to be removed from the EoG list. The only real reason we offered that option to Methrage was that he already had a surplus of tech, which we asked for a portion of.
[/quote]

so what is the typical procedure to be let off if you don't mind my asking?

[quote name='Beefspari' date='18 May 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1274239118' post='2302875']
It wouldn't make sense to fight him while he's giving us tech. Especially since his bills would be outrageous with ZI due to all his improvements and wonders. Obviously, we would have let up if he had gone the tech route. But he wasn't interested. TOP stepped in to do what Methrage should have been able to do himself, but was too proud to do.
[/quote]

Thank you for answering my question and clarifying it for me. it made no sense if you kept attacking the nation while they was paying reps. :P

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1274239338' post='2302881']
so what is the typical procedure to be let off if you don't mind my asking?
[/quote]

Honestly, Methrage is the first EoG to actually apply for peace, but the process is very similar to any nations wishing to seek peace from tech raids. Generally we give them two options, decided by our High War Adjuticator, that usually range from a short story, to a poem, to a picture. It gives them a chance to express their creativity, and quite honestly when they go through with it (which many do), we enjoy it far more than any measly reps.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1274239338' post='2302881']
so what is the typical procedure to be let off if you don't mind my asking?
[/quote]
Well hopefully they all go a little something [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&blogid=341&showentry=1743]like this.[/url] Although that's not so much of an EoG situation, but it is a good example of the terms we enjoy.

Edited by Sardonic
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