Nemesis Announcement

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Amossio' date='18 May 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1274238666' post='2302857']
You don't know what went on, what is going on or what will go on, this why some things are best kept private instead of the usual bunch throwing opinions about situations they don't know much about.
[/quote]

Actually, if things were kept in the open speculation wouldn't be needed.

[Daikos]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1274240119' post='2302901']
if you noticed who i directed my reply to and read what that person wrote, you would understand my post then. i did not comment one bit on the Nemesis-LoSS treaty so much as i commented on what Choader wrote.

I am saddened by the Nemesis-LoSS treaty and frankly, i find that allowing a very minor treaty to cancel a treaty with a longtime friend is just pathetic. it was not like LoSS was going around and treatying everyone on the other side, it was one treaty and a minor one at that. to basically allow that to push other minor things to this point is just plain bad.

and no, just because a friend becomes friends with someone you don't like, it should change nothing. when i was in IAA, IAA did not like the fact that GATO became allied to NSO but that changed nothing about how they felt about GATO. GATO is a grown alliance and capable of making their own decisions. IAA may not like NSO all that much, but IAA trusts GATO and thus, nothing in that relationship changed one bit. that shows true friendship.

telling your friend they cannot make new friends because you don't like them shows immaturity and lack of trust. it shows that the friendship is more about using than actually being friends.
[/quote]

Choader was commenting on the Nemesis - LoSS situation, so your response was clearly directly related to it. Saying otherwise is nonsensical.

And I don't know why you're still tossing around the word friend. We're talking about treaties here not being IRC friendsies.

Nemesis wasn't comfortable being tied to TOOL through LoSS. End of story. Just because the treaty is cancelled doesn't mean that Nemesis and LoSS hate each other. This isn't High School, both sides can handle not being allied to each other on such a high level. As I've said a number of times already THEY ARE STILL TIED THROUGH NOIR.

SO really knock off all this friends nonsense, it doesn't have anything to do with this.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Daikos' date='18 May 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1274240615' post='2302912']
Choader was commenting on the Nemesis - LoSS situation, so your response was clearly directly related to it. Saying otherwise is nonsensical.

And I don't know why you're still tossing around the word friend. We're talking about treaties here not being IRC friendsies.

Nemesis wasn't comfortable being tied to TOOL through LoSS. End of story. Just because the treaty is cancelled doesn't mean that Nemesis and LoSS hate each other. This isn't High School, both sides can handle not being allied to each other on such a high level. As I've said a number of times already THEY ARE STILL TIED THROUGH NOIR.

SO really knock off all this friends nonsense, it doesn't have anything to do with this.
[/quote]
This man pretty much hit it on the head. IN NO WAY do we hate LoSS. I and many other still consider them great friends. We just don't see the current situation as right for us to be allied together. In the future, this very well may change.

[Yawoo]

I was informed by LoSS leadership that if we wanted to downgrade, we had better prepare to just cancel the treaty. There was no option for us to downgrade, it was either keep the treaty as is, or cancel it. A PIAT = Peace Intelligence [and] Aid Treaty, a treaty such as this does not have a military clause in it that is the reason for the next level of treaty, ODP (Optional Defense Pact) stating that a treaty with an ODP built in is anything but an ODP is laughable.

As always, I am amused by the people who assume they know why Nemesis canceled on LoSS. Yes, this treaty is part of our decision, but there were more elements to consider such as a huge amount of lack of communication, etc. Villianize Nemesis if you will, it matters not to me nor mine. The fact of the matter is, it is Nemesis' responsibility to look after the well being of Nemesis, and we did not and still do not feel that being tied to TOOL (albeit indirectly) is a move that is good for Nemesis' health. I will not sit idly by as my ally makes a move that puts Nemesis into a position that would ultimately be poor for my alliance. Before you criticize, I suggest you take a look at your alliance's history and see if you had the courage to cancel on a close treaty partner knowing that many people would dislike the move.

Spider, your input is noted, but Nemesis is in a great position and has no need of your services. Thank you for inquiring, I'm sure Hoo will be excited to know that he gets to keep your around for awhile longer.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Daikos' date='18 May 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1274240615' post='2302912']
Choader was commenting on the Nemesis - LoSS situation, so your response was clearly directly related to it. Saying otherwise is nonsensical.

And I don't know why you're still tossing around the word friend. We're talking about treaties here not being IRC friendsies.

Nemesis wasn't comfortable being tied to TOOL through LoSS. End of story. Just because the treaty is cancelled doesn't mean that Nemesis and LoSS hate each other. This isn't High School, both sides can handle not being allied to each other on such a high level. As I've said a number of times already THEY ARE STILL TIED THROUGH NOIR.

SO really knock off all this friends nonsense, it doesn't have anything to do with this.
[/quote]

i was commenting on the reasons Choader stated were used to decide this. the situation itself i commented on in the other post. as for IRC friendsies versus what? then.... where are you going with that exactly? treaties are supposedly a reflection of friendship unless i am mistaken about that?

as for whether Nemesis and LoSS hate one another, i never even came close to stating that.

as for friends nonsense... it has everything to do with this. if you are best friends with someone, then it should never matter who they are friends with. you should always have your best friends back no matter what. for example, if everyone up and decided to cancel on MHA because they still have the Härmlin Accords active, i bet many would be all about how pathetic that move would be. and that treaty is far higher than a minor PIAT/ODP.

[The AUT]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 May 2010 - 04:18 AM' timestamp='1274239097' post='2302872']
One of the reportedly closest friendships on Planet Bob is cast aside because they signed a PIAT. What exactly has TOOL done that is so heinous that they are such a percieved threat to Nemesis?
[/quote]

It's not surprising to see this if you knew how impulsive daggarz really is.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='The AUT' date='19 May 2010 - 04:59 AM' timestamp='1274241573' post='2302932']
It's not surprising to see this if you knew how impulsive daggarz really is.
[/quote]


Yes, because it was only daggarz that made this descision, sigh.

[Daikos]

[quote name='The AUT' date='18 May 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1274241573' post='2302932']
It's not surprising to see this if you knew how impulsive daggarz really is.
[/quote]

Another brilliant political insight from the AUT.

[Mathias]

It's common knowledge that Daggarz is the only member of Nemesis.

[Free Quebec]

[quote name='Salmia' date='19 May 2010 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1274238939' post='2302865']

And so alliances should never treaty to each other because of so called sides? Yes you should take into account your allies but when you stop it from signing with people you've actually made friends of, what is the point of treaties? It is not all strategy or at least that is not how TOOL operates. That may be how other alliances choose.. but that is how they decide to do it. After this, the hypocrisy is laughable. Don't complain next time if alliances are on the wrong side in the future because it is clear even if an alliance tries to reach out, unless they're completely willing to abandon their allies, they're forced to remain alienated to their side and it is sheer hypocrisy to claim that alliances didn't try to reach out when they get this type of reaction when they do.

I am sorry that TOOL's PIAT with LoSS caused this much of an uproar. I didn't know LoSS was that untrustable from a closest ally. It is optional and it is laughable to think they'd enter a war via it.
[/quote]

Who are you talking to? Nemesis? Who are these 'complainer/hypocrites'? If Nemesis doesn't want to have anything to do with you, they can cut their tie with LOSS. They have sovereignty and can do what they like.

[The AUT]

So I guess an acting Triumvir barely has any impact on a 30 man AA.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Co God Ben' date='18 May 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1274210512' post='2302326']
The fact you'\d be willing to cancel over a ******* piat proves that you guys thought a lot less of us than we thought of you. You talk about doing this for your members; I regret subjecting my members to treatying with you.


Yawoo, you mean nothing to me.


Schatt, you never meant anything to me.


Amossio, don't ever bother talking to me.


I wish Nemesis the best luck in all their future endeavors.
[/quote]
RAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! GGGGGGGRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! YAAAAAOOOOOOOOOO!

[quote name='LordSlade' date='18 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1274214400' post='2302374']
Sometimes hotheads speak out of turn and make things worse.
[/quote]
Ben isn't just a "hothead"; he's a tri in LoSS. If Cortath loses his crap no one is going to say, "oh, you know, that's not official, he's just funny sometimes."
edit:
<Yawoo> Ben just retired
<Yawoo> Slade took his spot
<SchattenAFK> The word of Schattenmann is law
<SchattenAFK> Plus his sig still says tri

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='18 May 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1274233411' post='2302691']
You know I have done my fair share of LoSS bashing but, I have to give them props for not letting Nemesis dictate how they run their foreign affairs. Because I think this has less to do with the PIAT itself and more to do Nemesis having a tantrum because LoSS thinks they run their own FA and expect to be supported by their allies in the choices they make. Way to support your allies Nemesis, real classy.
[/quote]
Yeaaahhhh, I'm just going to go ahead and say that the second-in-command of one of the alltime best treaty-anything-with-a-pulse alliances doesn't really have much to say about logical treaty relationships. You're basically arguing that one partner in the treaty, LoSS, may conduct its foreign affairs however the Hell it wants, but that the other partner in the treaty, Nemesis, may not conduct their foreign affairs however the Hell they want.
Treaties chain, even non-chaining treaties will chain because the idiots that run alliances ignore or don't understand their own treaties. As such, even "minor" treaties like the [i][b]ODP[/b][/i] that LoSS signed with TOOL (and which they falsely assured Nemesis was a non-military PIAT) will result in compelled military action in the event that any of the parties enters a war. TOOL's foreign policy is incompatible with Nemesis', so Nemesis acted in good faith as an ally should and informed LoSS that if they entered a military treaty with TOOL, then it would alter Nemesis' relationship with LoSS. LoSS lied to Nemesis, and told them that the TOOL treaty was not military. [i][b][color="#800080"]Keep in mind that TOOL is still under fricking terms to Nemesis, for Admin's sake![/color][/b][/i]

It is outright irresponsible, ignorant, and negligent to maintain a high-level military treaty with an alliance whose foreign affairs are not in line with your own. Nemesis' cancellation is not punitive, it is realistic. And that is what Digiterra needs more than anything: More logic in its treatying, and less emotion. It is the treaty-whoring and treaty-hoarding of your generation that created some of the worst acts in Digiterran history, and it will be realism in foreign affairs that prevents repeats in the present and future. Every alliance should tell every one of its allies exactly how prospective treaties will effect current relations, and every alliance should alter its treaties when the changing foreign affairs policies of its allies are not in line with its own foreign affairs.

The hurfdurfing mobs of rulers have already disregarded the several other factors that are extraneous to the TOOL treaty that went into this decision--and there were plenty; however, in respect to all the reasons, I for one applaud and laud Nemesis' decision to conduct [i]its own affairs[/i] in [i]its own interests[/i]!

Edited May 19, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Daikos]

[quote name='The AUT' date='19 May 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1274243766' post='2302970']
So I guess an acting Triumvir barely has any impact on a 30 man AA.
[/quote]

It's great that you have such a firm grasp on the inner workings of Nemesis.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='18 May 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1274243766' post='2302970']
So I guess an acting Triumvir barely has any impact on a 30 man AA.
[/quote]
Acting? Last I checked Daggarz was a full Triumvirate member. Also, before you try to disparage my fellow Triumvirate member, you should do your homework and realize that it takes a 2/3 Tri agreement before anything moves. Take your personal grudge elsewhere, and next time you want to comment on an issue such as this, do your homework.

[Choader]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1274241302' post='2302928']
i was commenting on the reasons Choader stated were used to decide this. the situation itself i commented on in the other post. as for IRC friendsies versus what? then.... where are you going with that exactly? treaties are supposedly a reflection of friendship unless i am mistaken about that?

as for whether Nemesis and LoSS hate one another, i never even came close to stating that.

as for friends nonsense... it has everything to do with this. if you are best friends with someone, then it should never matter who they are friends with. you should always have your best friends back no matter what. for example, if everyone up and decided to cancel on MHA because they still have the Härmlin Accords active, i bet many would be all about how pathetic that move would be. and that treaty is far higher than a minor PIAT/ODP.
[/quote]
I wasn't going to re-comment here but I believe you're misinterpreting my last post. You said my line of thinking is pure realpolitik and is incompatible with the Friends>Infra propaganda line, I don't see where you got that. I don't believe for a second that Nemesis was looking out for their infra when canceling on LoSS, and I certainly don't think they can't be friends without an obligation to defend them. LoSS could have easily developed friendships with TOOL without a treaty in much the same way. The fact is that friendship is a loose concept in a place like this where the most interaction you'll get with someone is cracking jokes on IRC, I can make enjoyable small talk with someone from virtually any alliance but that doesn't mean the next step is to make a treaty announcement.

You're in DAWN now Doch, not too long ago you were in Gre. Don't you think it's possible you could find yourself having a nice conversation with a couple current Gramlins? If you did does that mean it's appropriate for you to push your alliance for a treaty with them? Of course not, treaties are signed for a large variety of reasons and e-friendship is only the icebreaker.

[The AUT]

[quote name='Yawoo' date='19 May 2010 - 05:41 AM' timestamp='1274244079' post='2302977']
Acting? Last I checked Daggarz was a full Triumvirate member. Also, before you try to disparage my fellow Triumvirate member, you should do your homework and realize that it takes a 2/3 Tri agreement before anything moves. Take your personal grudge elsewhere, and next time you want to comment on an issue such as this, do your homework.
[/quote]

So he factored into the decision, it wouldn't surprise me if he's the one who pushed hardest for it. Did you vote yes as well? Wouldn't be surprised. However, daggarz still played a major role and he's impulsive. There you go, homework done.

[Starfox101]

What's wrong with being impulsive? I like a man of action.

[The AUT]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='19 May 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1274244600' post='2302988']
What's wrong with being impulsive? I like a man of action.
[/quote]

Well what type of man you like is up to you.

My point is seeing this treaty cancellation is not surprising. All I said was that this wasn't [i]surprising[/i] knowing him.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='The AUT' date='19 May 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1274243766' post='2302970']
So I guess an acting Triumvir barely has any impact on a 30 man AA.
[/quote]


If you actually had any kind of clue, then you would realise that descisions are put to the members, they discuss it and then funnily enough, if the members dont approve, then they dissregard whatever it is they are discussing, amazing, WOW, it's Awesome when you know how things work.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='18 May 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1274244424' post='2302984']
So he factored into the decision, it wouldn't surprise me if he's the one who pushed hardest for it. Did you vote yes as well? Wouldn't be surprised. However, daggarz still played a major role and he's impulsive. There you go, homework done.
[/quote]

Homework not done. Daggarz played a small role. I've already said I called for the treaty review, so I would hope it wouldn't be surprising for you, considering in this thread I posted about it. You're speaking of things you know nothing about, and while that isn't new, I would have hoped you'd learned your lesson.

[The AUT]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='19 May 2010 - 05:53 AM' timestamp='1274244806' post='2302993']
If you actually had any kind of clue, then you would realise that descisions are put to the members, they discuss it and then funnily enough, if the members dont approve, then they dissregard whatever it is they are discussing, amazing, WOW, it's Awesome when you know how things work.
[/quote]

So you're saying daggarz influence on this decision is minimal? Nah.

[quote][b]The Government of Nemesis is the voice of its membership.[/b] The Triumvirate shall exude all of the qualities expected of the membership. The Ministers are responsible for the day-to-day running of the alliance, and are expected to act in the most responsible of manners. No Minister shall interfere in another Ministers' department, and when possible, is expected to work with other Ministers in order to promote alliance unity.

[b]The Triumvirate are the leaders of the alliance. Nothing can be accomplished without their cooperation, and as such, any decisions made for the alliance require 2/3 of the Triumvirate to agree[/b]. The Triumvirate shall be the ones to declare war, negotiate reparations, appoint Ministers, oversee elections, sign treaties, set benchmarks, and raise the bar. [b]The Triumvirate has the final say in any and all alliance affairs, should they so desire.[/b] [/quote]

It means that the alliance's memberships opinion is very casual. Either that or you need to invoke the Amendment clause.

[Leftbehind]

I don't understand what the big uproar is about. All they done was cancel a treaty now, instead of having to do it later or just ignoring it later.

[daggarz]

[quote name='The AUT' date='19 May 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1274244424' post='2302984']
So he factored into the decision, it wouldn't surprise me if he's the one who pushed hardest for it. Did you vote yes as well? Wouldn't be surprised. However, daggarz still played a major role and he's impulsive. There you go, homework done.
[/quote]

Then would you be surprised to know I was the last to concede?
Imma say what I said in our own forums just today
"Everyone loves to have a stab at the aussie"

[The AUT]

[quote name='Left_Behind' date='19 May 2010 - 05:57 AM' timestamp='1274245035' post='2303000']
I don't understand what the big uproar is about. All they done was cancel a treaty now, instead of having to do it later or just ignoring it later.
[/quote]

The issue is Nemesis throwing a hissy fit over LoSS signing a treaty with TOOL. They think they treatied the other side and betrayed them, oddly enough. That's the reason why this is given so much attention.
[quote]
Then would you be surprised to know I was the last to concede?
Imma say what I said in our own forums just today
"Everyone loves to have a stab at the aussie" [/quote]

Then I owe you an apology.

Quoted from under:

[quote]You still aren't doing your homework. If you were a member of Nemesis, then you would now how we operate. A charter can only tell you bare bones things, not the full fleshed out story.[/quote]

So you expect me to spy on you to know how you operate outside your charter? What's the point of your charter than? Mind editing it so we all know and don't have you spell it out? Thanks.

Edited May 19, 2010 by The AUT

[Yawoo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='18 May 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1274245023' post='2302999']
So you're saying daggarz influence on this decision is minimal? Nah.



It means that the alliance's memberships opinion is very casual. Either that or you need to invoke the Amendment clause.
[/quote]

You still aren't doing your homework. If you were a member of Nemesis, then you would now how we operate. A charter can only tell you bare bones things, not the full fleshed out story.