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[quote name='pezstar' date='16 May 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1274058474' post='2300710']
No. That's not what you're saying. That's what you're trying to say now that you've been called out on it. What you actually said was that they had no intention of defending STA, but merely declared as a symbolic gesture. And you're full of crap.
[/quote]

It's the same thing. I obviously can't know what their true intentions were, but they had no realistic ability to help you (and they knew as much), so their declaration of war was purely symbolic. I haven't changed what I'm saying one bit.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 May 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1274058850' post='2300718']
Frankly, Heft was at war with you. The first rule of being at war is that you attempt to mislead your opponent. If you're in query with someone who's trying to destroy you, do not expect honesty - especially when you're asking about their battle plan, lol.
[/quote]

[obligatory Grub-TOP joke goes here]

This is a fair point, but I do not believe Heft was lying, as demonstrated by the fact that NSO launched only a token amount of wars throughout the engagement.

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[quote name='M6 Redneck' date='16 May 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='' post='']
Message sent to all of Hydra. I care THAT much.

I hold strong convictions that Hydra is a terminally sad and tumerous alliance. As such I did what I could to inform the membership of Hydra of this.

Dont applaud - I really am that altruistic!

For the record the advice on where to go is and was, "Check the OWF recruitment thread".

This was certainly not a clumsly attempt to gain \m/embers. I only wanted to save those seduced by Hydra.

\M/6
[/quote]
So you tell them that stuff on the OWF that isn't there is there?

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[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 May 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1274059726' post='2300735']
It's the same thing. I obviously can't know what their true intentions were, but they had no realistic ability to help you (and they knew as much), so their declaration of war was purely symbolic. I haven't changed what I'm saying one bit.
[/quote]
I know a lot more about what their intentions are than you do, apparently. You should read Ivan's posts more closely.

It wasn't purely symbolic, and they had a realistic ability to hurt CSN quite considerably.

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[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 May 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1274059726' post='2300735']
It's the same thing. I obviously can't know what their true intentions were, but they had no realistic ability to help you (and they knew as much), so their declaration of war was purely symbolic. I haven't changed what I'm saying one bit.

[/quote]

No. It's not the same thing. Could they have assisted us as well as they could have if they were unencumbered? No, of course not. But what you are saying is that they had no intentions of actually helping us and just declared so they could say they did so. This is supported by your statement calling their claim that they declared in defense of us "revisionist history". Both STA and NSO are telling you that you are wrong. While they certainly weren't able to devote their full attention to CSN, they had every intention of rearranging some of their fights on other fronts as well as using the war slots they already had available to declare wars on CSN. What you are saying and what actually happened are two different things.

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[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 May 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1274060034' post='2300743']
I know a lot more about what their intentions are than you do, apparently. You should read Ivan's posts more closely.

It wasn't purely symbolic, and they had a realistic ability to hurt CSN quite considerably.
[/quote]

Ivan's post supports what I'm saying.

[quote]Today I saw this question come to me. Today upon looking at the situations across the Cyberverse I came to realize that even though my own alliance is [b]facing nearly insurmountable odds[/b], I can not side idle while a long time friend suffers for doing nothing more than honoring its treaties.

Therefore, even in consideration that the [b]New Sith Order is already engaged on multiple fronts and is taxed beyond reasonable measure[/b], and in light of the failures of some to stand up for what is Just in a world of legalistic injustices, I, Ivan Moldavi, Dark and Sovereign Lord of the New Sith Order, issue this declaration of war upon the alliance known as CSN in defense of our friends in the Siberian Tiger Alliance.[/quote]

They knew full well that they weren't in a position to contribute to the front. They did not have much ability to harm us because most of them were already heavily-engaged (they were the most targeted alliance on the Crusader side). Never at any point in the war against us did they have more than a token amount of wars declared.

[quote name='pezstar' date='16 May 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1274060252' post='2300753']
No. It's not the same thing. Could they have assisted us as well as they could have if they were unencumbered? No, of course not. But what you are saying is that they had no intentions of actually helping us and just declared so they could say they did so. This is supported by your statement calling their claim that they declared in defense of us "revisionist history". Both STA and NSO are telling you that you are wrong. While they certainly weren't able to devote their full attention to CSN, they had every intention of rearranging some of their fights on other fronts as well as using the war slots they already had available to declare wars on CSN. What you are saying and what actually happened are two different things.
[/quote]

That is only part of what I'm saying. I readily acknowledge that their declaration had symbolic merit and was a commendable gesture of support for the Siberian Tiger Alliance in a war that they could not physically assist in. But they did not contribute to that front in any tangible way, and that is a fact.

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[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 May 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1274060970' post='2300765']
Ivan's post supports what I'm saying.



They knew full well that they weren't in a position to contribute to the front. They did not have much ability to harm us because most of them were already heavily-engaged (they were the most targeted alliance on the Crusader side). Never at any point in the war against us did they have more than a token amount of wars declared.



That is only part of what I'm saying. I readily acknowledge that their declaration had symbolic merit and was a commendable gesture of support for the Siberian Tiger Alliance in a war that they could not physically assist in. But they did not contribute to that front in any tangible way, and that is a fact.
[/quote]

No one claimed that they did. That front of the war ended just a few short hours after their declaration. We, fortunately, didn't need that assistance. Thank you for acknowledging that it was commendable, rather than "revisionist history". You're still spewing crap, however, in stating that they couldn't physically assist. They couldn't assist in a huge, grand way, but even a dozen or so declarations is a significant level of assistance, ESPECIALLY when you consider that, due to your alliance honorless declaration on STA, we had no other support.

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[quote name='Lenny N Karl' date='17 May 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1274058525' post='2300713']
Folks are already trying to start something with the new bloc? At least \m/, as a professional, diplomatic, and respected alliance will publicly condemn these actions. You all just watch...
[/quote]
I don't know what you are looking for exactly, but I must state I love me some M6!

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[quote name='AirMe' date='16 May 2010 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1274061064' post='2300769']
Interesting grouping. Clearly diverging from Moldavi's vision.
[/quote]
It may not be as divergent as you think. We at the NSO certainly don't believe we were founded to be a wholly static entity, but rather one governed by a certain set of overarching principles. Though the specific treaties, men, and times may change, the zeitgeist of the alliance remains a constant.

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[quote name='pezstar' date='16 May 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1274061262' post='2300774']
No one claimed that they did. That front of the war ended just a few short hours after their declaration. We, fortunately, didn't need that assistance. Thank you for acknowledging that it was commendable, rather than "revisionist history". You're still spewing crap, however, in stating that they couldn't physically assist. They couldn't assist in a huge, grand way, but even a dozen or so declarations is a significant level of assistance, ESPECIALLY when you consider that, due to your alliance honorless declaration on STA, we had no other support.
[/quote]

Heggo claimed that they did in the post I originally responded to.

I don't think they could have mustered even a dozen declarations, and especially not in the upper ranges where it would have mattered (since STA and CSN both have a fairly high average strength). The CSN-STA War might have ended shortly after, but the CSN-NSO "War" went on for another month after that, and I assure you that they did not have the capacity to help you if the war had dragged on. Even with a reduced load of opponents (a bunch of the people they were fighting eased off after NpO peaced), they were all either in peace mode or anarchy by the second round of wars, and they stayed that way until the end.

[size="1"]Please note that this should not in any way be perceived as criticism of NSO's war effort.[/size]

Your continued cheap shots are painful. :(

Edited by Lord Brendan
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On a more important note than whatever Brendan is babbling about, I'd like to thank M6 for recognizing that Psyops© are an NSO invention:

[img]http://imgur.com/CnC1c.png[/img]

Your royalty payments have been processed and are much appreciated.

Edited by heggo
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[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 May 2010 - 10:10 PM' timestamp='1274062187' post='2300789']
Heggo claimed that they did in the post I originally responded to.

I don't think they could have mustered even a dozen declarations, and especially not in the upper ranges where it would have mattered (since STA and CSN both have a fairly high average strength). The CSN-STA War might have ended shortly after, but the CSN-NSO "War" went on for another month after that, and I assure you that they did not have the capacity to help you if the war had dragged on. Even with a reduced load of opponents (a bunch of the people they were fighting eased off after NpO peaced), they were all either in peace mode or anarchy by the second round of wars, and they stayed that way until the end.

[size="1"]Please note that this should not in any way be perceived as criticism of NSO's war effort.[/size]
[/quote]

For some reason, every thread involving the slightest bit of us always dwindles down to what we did in the last war. You're making an argument for a counter-factual universe based on evidence that you saw in the last war. However, the fact remains that you are still making speculations. You would have no clue on what would have happened in the counter-factual universe because you assumed a static war front. There are many possible branching scenarios that could have occurred, and it would nearly impossible to take into account of those. I would say that you are skewing your definition of symbolic. Something that is symbolic has no real physical weight. Our nations actually did declare on you. Therefore, there is no symbolism. It is reality.

Also, if I recall correctly, CSN hit us more than a couple of times in that war. We hit you a couple of times as well. Also, your reduced load of opponents argument is a bit flawed. We peaced out with FoK only. With that, we also lost quite a bit of support. We were already getting minimal support already, but with the onset of the second war, we lost nearly all of that support. It basically amounted to a turtling curb stomp on our end.

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[quote name='M6 Redneck' date='16 May 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1274059168' post='2300725']
Message sent to all of Hydra. I care THAT much.

I hold strong convictions that Hydra is a terminally sad and tumerous alliance. As such I did what I could to inform the membership of Hydra of this.

Dont applaud - I really am that altruistic!

For the record the advice on where to go is and was, "Check the OWF recruitment thread".

This was certainly not a clumsly attempt to gain \m/embers. I only wanted to save those seduced by Hydra.

\M/6
[/quote]

It's funny really. You found out your old arguments were false so now you rely on general insults. I was at least hoping you were creative enough to make all new lies about us, instead of blanket insults.

Better luck next time though.

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[quote name='Jrenster' date='16 May 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1274062844' post='2300798']
For some reason, every thread involving the slightest bit of us always dwindles down to what we did in the last war. You're making an argument for a counter-factual universe based on evidence that you saw in the last war. However, the fact remains that you are still making speculations. You would have no clue on what would have happened in the counter-factual universe because you assumed a static war front. There are many possible branching scenarios that could have occurred, and it would nearly impossible to take into account of those. I would say that you are skewing your definition of symbolic. Something that is symbolic has no real physical weight. Our nations actually did declare on you. Therefore, there is no symbolism. It is reality.

Also, if I recall correctly, CSN hit us more than a couple of times in that war. We hit you a couple of times as well. Also, your reduced load of opponents argument is a bit flawed. We peaced out with FoK only. With that, we also lost quite a bit of support. We were already getting minimal support already, but with the onset of the second war, we lost nearly all of that support. It basically amounted to a turtling curb stomp on our end.
[/quote]

I didn't bring the war up, I just wanted to clarify something a NSO member said; that is, the assertion that NSO used the Moldavi Doctrine to provide support to STA, which I found to be at least partially untrue.

I believe one nation declared war on us in your initial blitz. One war is symbolic, surely you won't deny that?

GOD and Guru Order both scaled back on attacking you (probably due in part to Polar declaring war on GOD). I don't think we hit you much at all (myself and Penkala being two notable exceptions), and I don't recall you attacking us much either. The second half of the war against you was mostly fought by Fark.

[size="1"][OOC]Going to bed now. Thanks for the debate.[/OOC][/size]

Edited by Lord Brendan
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[quote name='Lenny N Karl' date='16 May 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1274058525' post='2300713']
At least \m/, as a professional, diplomatic, and respected alliance will publicly condemn these actions. You all just watch...
[/quote]
We're not going to punish him for voicing his opinion. I personally would have taken a different route than that, but we'll allow it.

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