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Is the war over or are the terms eternal?


Alterego

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[quote name='SirWilliam' date='24 April 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1272163442' post='2273737']
Never said it was.


Finding something unacceptable or unreasonable doesn't will it out of existence. If an out exists, it exists.


Glad to see you're talking out of your bum and making unparalleled assertions. :)
[/quote]

actually, just like with FAN, many people forgot there was an out since FAN found such an out unacceptable in lieu of the white peace they felt they deserved. thus, many simply bemoan NPO over the fact that FAN was in the longest war in CN neglecting the fact that an out existed. thus, if something is unacceptable or considered unreasonable, it is quite simple to will them out of existence.

as for my assertions, the fact that you had to state that you neglected to provide the "out" and stated that we should disregard our opinions on it, felt to me as if you thought the out was something good. i do apologize if i misread your intentions.

@silentkiller- honestly, at that point i would not have trusted ya'll much either if i was FAN. :P

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Its true that alliances that agreed to no reentry terms are now being held to them far longer than anticipated due to the current stalemate between Gramlins and IRON however, running to the OWF is rarely the correct solution. If you have an issue with your surrender terms (or in this case their actual duration) you should be approaching those enforcing the terms, not making a B-Line for a cheap PR move.

Edit: Alliances has an 's' >_>

Edited by TypoNinja
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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='25 April 2010 - 03:51 AM' timestamp='1272163900' post='2273748']
@silentkiller- honestly, at that point i would not have trusted ya'll much either if i was FAN. :P
[/quote]

Trust me, I would'nt have as well. I am just trying to say that the same is true for Gremlins.

Edited by silentkiller
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Actually there's more at stake here. IRON and DAWN are not currently obligated to pay a dime in reparations until the Gramlins portion of the war is over.

At some point any POW camps will be dissolved simply because anyone left in them will move on. I can't believe that C&G and company would not want their "reps" eventually...so at some point whatever this remaining conflict is, it will be declared something other than a continuation of GW VII (or whatever we decided to call it).

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The thread says,

[quote]-IRON and DAWN’s mandated reparations payments and time frame for payment will be suspended until war with Grämlins has concluded.[/quote]


Unless I'm missing another clause, these terms are only suspended, meaning they haven't been enacted yet. The terms are not eternal. They are as long as the time frame states they are. They simply haven't begun yet.

It's like if you have a recipe:

1) Preheat oven to 350°F
2) Bake for 20 minutes


The fact that you have to preheat the oven before baking doesn't mean you're baking forever.

Edited by Sal Paradise
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[quote name='Sal Paradise' date='24 April 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1272166472' post='2273795']
The fact that you have to preheat the oven before baking doesn't mean you're baking forever.
[/quote]

This would explain the birthday briquette I baked for the missus last year.

Dang.



With regard to the OP: I dunno. If it drags on long enough, I wouldn't be surprised if those whose reps are on hold quietly let IRON and DAWN's friends know that it's OK to come out and play.

Edited by Ashoka the Great
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[quote name='Sal Paradise' date='24 April 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1272166472' post='2273795']
Unless I'm missing another clause, these terms are only suspended, meaning they haven't been enacted yet. The terms are not eternal. They are as long as the time frame states they are. They simply haven't begun yet.
[/quote]

You're not missing anything. In fact it was part of the rationale for my post above. No war over, no "reps". Unless the war is declared over, billions are left sitting on the table, uncollected. If that part is eternal...well...IRON might not mind that.

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[quote name='Arthur Blair' date='24 April 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1272170969' post='2273906']
You're trying too hard and you're making it too obvious. That goes for a lot of people, not just the OP.

Your efforts are currently having the opposite effect. You drive away anyone who would otherwise be willing to listen to genuine complaints.
[/quote]

what in your mind is a genuine complaint? IRON/DAWN do not have a way currently to have any alliances help them out militarily for a while now since the no reentry clause has not been rescinded which means we are stuck in an eternal war for the time being unless gremlins rescind their unconditional surrender term.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='25 April 2010 - 05:38 AM' timestamp='1272173905' post='2273995']
what in your mind is a genuine complaint? IRON/DAWN do not have a way currently to have any alliances help them out militarily for a while now since the no reentry clause has not been rescinded which means we are stuck in an eternal war for the time being unless gremlins rescind their unconditional surrender term.
[/quote]

Wait, are you really saying that a genuine complaint is "[b]for the time being[/b] we are stuck in an [b]eternal[/b] war"?

... You do realize that eternal means there is no "currently" or "for the time being"? There is only eternal. Forever. Infinite. You are eternally in war, or you are in war for the time being. You can not be both.


I do not see a way for the terms signed to last forever. This is not a genuine complaint, it's an attempt to smear this horrible new hegemony with yet another baseless claim.

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[quote name='Arthur Blair' date='25 April 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1272175334' post='2274021']
Wait, are you really saying that a genuine complaint is "[b]for the time being[/b] we are stuck in an [b]eternal[/b] war"?

... You do realize that eternal means there is no "currently" or "for the time being"? There is only eternal. Forever. Infinite. You are eternally in war, or you are in war for the time being. You can not be both.


I do not see a way for the terms signed to last forever. This is not a genuine complaint, it's an attempt to smear this horrible new hegemony with yet another baseless claim.
[/quote]
The former hegemony got hit with so many taunts of 'eternal this' and 'eternal that', don't be surprised when it gets thrown back.

As far as the actual terms themselves..well, to be honest, I'd say this WOULD be more of a negotiation case. Of course, there is precedent for a smaller, out-of-power coalition to air its complaints and grievances on the forums to bring attention to them. If memory serves, the old powers that were tended to treat them lightly, citing things as stretches and so on. Time will tell.

For those who didn't want to read all of this, the short version: Negotiate about the terms if they're turning into something else, and if you don't like labels being chucked, don't make 'em in the first place.

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It's in no way eternal. In fact, CnG would probably not only agree - but be happy to welcome IRON and DAWN paying their reps very quickly. It's just that since they're still at war, CnG allowed them to be paid after they finish the thing up. According to amad123 that will be in about 12 to 18 months, so with 6 needed to repay them it's 18 to 24 months. So if timeframe's are talked about = not eternal. Hell, they can be even dodge paying the reparations, since in 18 to 24 months a lot can happen, alliances get disbanded, people's hearts softened, you never know.
Some people currently [b]buy[/b] buy tech at the rate mentioned in reparations, so it might be a win scenario after all!
Heh.

As to entry, re-entry and such. MHA's government is talking [b]with people involved.[/b] This is now Grämlins government on one side, and IRON and DAWN on the other. To avoid miscommunication, I'd suggest talking to IRON gov, and they will be able to take it from there. If you do feel that for some reason you want to skip IRON and DAWN and their opinions on the matter of escalating this conflict, we handle our communications on #MHA on coldfront. However, while we do value individual insights and opinions, we would appreciate if only government members (who can talk for their alliances ) tried to negotiate on this matter.

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[quote] name='Arthur Blair' date='25 April 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1272175334' post='2274021
... You do realize that eternal means there is no "currently" or "for the time being"? There is only eternal. Forever. Infinite. You are eternally in war, or you are in war for the time being. You can not be both. [/quote]
This is just absurd.A common practice was to mention EZ1; the E standing for eternal. No one used it to imagine it would exist even past the "heat death" of the Universe.What you are saying is you could be Z1 eternally or you or Z1 for the time being.I do not expect your great leap of Fallacies of Ambiguity will mitigate the feeling of those who suffered under EZ1. Nor is it applicable here.

Edited by Yggdrazil
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[quote name='silentkiller' date='25 April 2010 - 03:20 AM' timestamp='1272162024' post='2273695']


Thank you VE for restoring my faith that there are indeed alliances in Bob that will implement "terms of the hegemeony". For a minute I was getting worried that we will all be hugging each other.


[/quote]

wait, what? lol

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='25 April 2010 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1272163900' post='2273748']
actually, just like with FAN, many people forgot there was an out since FAN found such an out unacceptable in lieu of the white peace they felt they deserved. thus, many simply bemoan NPO over the fact that FAN was in the longest war in CN neglecting the fact that an out existed. thus, if something is unacceptable or considered unreasonable, it is quite simple to will them out of existence.

as for my assertions, the fact that you had to state that you neglected to provide the "out" and stated that we should disregard our opinions on it, felt to me as if you thought the out was something good. i do apologize if i misread your intentions.

@silentkiller- honestly, at that point i would not have trusted ya'll much either if i was FAN. :P
[/quote]

1 thing tho, FAN's "out" was kinda known. Our "Out" is a mystery box wrapped around by lunacy of an egomaniac and supported osupported by SC Hegemony in back channels. So while the situations in general may appear similar, in actuality they are different and some may argue, worse than FAN, remember, we have to pay 100k+ tech after we're done with the attrition war with Gre, whenever that finishes. Instead of dealing with Gramlins, IRON and DAWN are being told to accept the mystery box.

However, in terms of purely military side, the situation is better than FAN, nonetheless, its at best right now a sort of stalemate, it will take its time and toll.

Edited by shahenshah
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[quote name='SirWilliam' date='25 April 2010 - 03:29 AM' timestamp='1272162548' post='2273714']
Most, yes. No such term is explicitly stipulated in the Easter Sunday Accords of course (just to be clear).[/quote]
I am aware that there is not.

[quote]
OR until IRON/DAWN unconditionally surrenders. Personal opinions of Grämlins' demand aside, and regardless of the fact that it could end up having the same result, Grämlins [i]is[/i] providing an out here.[/quote]
They are holding up your ability to say the war is actually over and people can get on with business without any restrictions.

[quote]
The Easter Sunday Accords - the only agreement referenced and quoted in the OP - is very clear in stipulating a finite maximum allowable time frame for essentially the sole term found within (being the payment of reparations). As Denial eloquently pointed out.[/quote]
The problem is you say the war is over but still ongoing. You dont agree with what Gramlins are doing but you (your side)are allowing them to keep many alliances under terms that could still be going next year if Gramlins/IRON refuse to yield and your side pretend you are hands are tied on a technicality.

[quote]
What you quoted and bolded was a personal statement of mine, not policy of or a statement of intent for multiple alliances. I don't see the point or benefit in asking others to clarify a personal statement of mine. I can't speak for agreements that MK wasn't part of, but what few terms are included in the Easter Sunday Accords would be amended only as stipulated.

War is officially over once it's over; i.e., once [i]all[/i] parties are at peace.
[/quote]
What I qouted was the official MK position on the war. MK/C&G are the ones keeping all the alliances who sigened similar terms under terms because they refuse to say the conflict is over or ammend their official position that allows the restrictions to end without neccessarly telling people they can go off and attack Gramlins. That option is already there, anyone wanting to attack Gramlins can simply join IRON or DAWN. This is about placing potentially unending terms of lots of alliances and using Gramlins as the patsy.

[quote name='ktarthan' date='25 April 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1272163085' post='2273726']
I for one think it is downright despicable to instate common terms that through some unforeseen circumstance could end up taking longer than expected! For shame!

Edit: speeling.
[/quote]
Unforseen or engineered that way?

[quote name='Lennox' date='25 April 2010 - 04:32 AM' timestamp='1272166352' post='2273794']
If you signed with a no-reentry clause, nothing is stopping you from re-entering. Just don't be surprised when you get slapped around even harder.
[/quote]
This is not about attacking Gramlins its to do with the many alliances under terms that could potentially last as long as FAN or longer.

[quote name='Arthur Blair' date='25 April 2010 - 05:49 AM' timestamp='1272170969' post='2273906']
You're trying too hard and you're making it too obvious. That goes for a lot of people, not just the OP.

Your efforts are currently having the opposite effect. You drive away anyone who would otherwise be willing to listen to genuine complaints.
[/quote]
Sure I bet you are just aching to do the right thing but cant because of the Gramlins technicality.

Once more for the people at the back. This is not about attacking Gramlins it is about many alliances under terms that potentially could last years and dictate how alliances do some of their business. It doesnt matter what the terms are it just matters that many of alliances are under restrictions as long as your side continue to pretend that Gramlins are stopping you lot from ending these terms, who controls your alliances, your leaders or Gramlins?

Edited by Alterego
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[quote name='Cormalek' date='25 April 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1272177775' post='2274059']
It's in no way eternal. In fact, CnG would probably not only agree - but be happy to welcome IRON and DAWN paying their reps very quickly. It's just that since they're still at war, CnG allowed them to be paid after they finish the thing up. According to amad123 that will be in about 12 to 18 months, so with 6 needed to repay them it's 18 to 24 months. So if timeframe's are talked about = not eternal.
[/quote]
Semantics.
We dont know exactly when this will be over, so it is eternal until there is a timeline defined or one can make a good forecast based on solid assumptions, there are too many variables atm. Say, I accept your semantics play for a moment and that we're under terms for 2 years, so do you think that is good and well? Do you support 2 year-long terms? You're holding a huge set of alliances under a term that is at this point of of unknown time limit, hence it is eternal at this moment of time.

Edited by shahenshah
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[quote name='Tromp' date='25 April 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1272189033' post='2274182']
You know what you have to do when accepting unconditional surreder.
Lay down arms and tell Gre that you surrender.
[/quote]
I have an easier one, give IRON/DAWN terms and stop being secretive about what is being planned for IRON/DAWN after they surrender. Thats the hold up pretending its IRON/DAWN and not your buddy Ramwedge and the Shamlins is insincere. Not saying the war is over is your sides decision and not the Shamlins doing.

Edited by Alterego
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*Yawn*

If you had a little bit of interest in the whole situation you'd be able to figure out what would happen should Peron say to Gre that IRON surrenders. It's nothing close to what you so fear.

Edited by Tromp
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[quote name='Tromp' date='25 April 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1272190625' post='2274194']
*Yawn*

If you had a little bit of interest in the whole situation you'd be able to figure out what would happen should Peron say to Gre that IRON surrenders. It's nothing close to what you so fear.
[/quote]
*Yawn*
Having blind faith in an alliance that has shown it cant be trusted is a fine quality. Even their allies have said they dont know what the plan is but they back them and assume that they will do nothing once IRON have disarmed and come out of peace mode. That same alliance that apparently has all of you frustrated for doing their own thing and going against all your wishes will suddenly fall in line? Blind faith in Gramlins at this point just shows you are blind. This still doesnt address why others cant be released from terms. If Gramlins are doing their own thing and trying something different that shouldnt mean that the alliances who accepted surrenders have to give up control of their foreign policy to the bandwagoners in Gramlins and let them dictate when they end the terms.

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[quote name='shahenshah' date='25 April 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1272188253' post='2274178']
You're holding a huge set of alliances under a term that is at this point of of unknown time limit, hence it is eternal at this moment of time.[/quote]

First off, the only terms we are holding on anyone are the "no re-entry" ones. We didn't even get the "you've won" thingie in the peace treaty.

Secondly - terms are delayed for IRON's convenience. Should IRON decide to start payments, you'd be out of terms in ~6 months.

I'm not advocating that you [b]should[/b] do this, but the whining about the terms being delayed [i]for your convenience[/i], and thus calling them "eternal" is simply absurd. The terms will take about 6 months to be paid, give or take. If you were told to partake in 50 for 3 mil deals until the war is over? OK, I guess [i]then[/i] you could try to sell this as "eternal term". And even then you could end this quickly by surrendering. (Again, I do not say you should do this, and I hope you don't - but just because you don't surrender of your own will, doesn't mean that someone is preventing you from doing so).

IRON, DAWN - you know I like you guys (at least all members I've met so far), and that this argument wasn't started by you, and my replies aren't made against you, but rather faulty reasoning... I still sympathize with you (not that it's much beside talking at this point), but this argument was simply a bit too absurd to ignore. Should it be made in other thread I'd ignore it [ooc: hehe, forum mechanics would do it for me, actually :P], but given it's independent thread... Enough is enough.

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