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A Conference in the Gardens


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Oh my, MCXA's attempted defence presented in this thread is one of the flimsiest I've ever witnessed. It's even more disappointing to see SCY as the one doing the dirty work, he seemed like a pretty decent fellow.

Here's some advice for free: Don't inform people about suspected multis, don't inform people about IP addresses, don't inform people about new names, don't try to find out where people are because you'd 'just like to know', don't do any of that rubbish. Just don't bother. If someone acts up under a new identity, people will find out and justice will be had. Until then, you do no-one any favours with your oh-so helpful investigations, because none of it is your business. If anyone in your alliance asks you to do this crap, refer them to the proper authorities [ooc]ie. the moderation forums where suspected multis can be reported if there's evidence[/ooc] and let that be the end of it.

Edited by Aimee Mann
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Well if SCY managed to win over a good 75% of the votes, does this not show that people should choose there representetives carefully. Frankly Francesca does not pose a great threat to MXCA anymore as she is not in a position to inflict damage anymore. Hounding constantly is just wrong and EZI is out of order. Banning someone from the game permanently is something the Admin does not even do.

Edited by LRA KING
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[quote]This week, due to MCXA's pursuit of shadows, Zarophel has destroyed her nation.[/quote]

This is ridiculous. MCXA didn't even know for sure that the person they were looking for was actually in the Cult, let alone her actual identity. I see no evidence that SCY was doing anything more than following up on a tip-off received.

[OOC]I am totally against the hounding of rerolls but an accusation of multis is a serious one and I don't see how you can fault anyone for looking into it.[/OOC]

[quote name='LRA KING' date='16 April 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1271447408' post='2263079']
All i am seeing is large contridictions. Some entered Karma in order to put a stop to such "barbaric" actions but yet they continue to practice exactly what they preached about. Its just a big shame.
[/quote]

Who are you talking about?

Edited by Lord Brendan
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Information is always welcomed so long as it is complete and motives clear. At most all I have seen in the logs is you relaying hearsay or rumors about her possessing multiple accounts. Those reports are unreliable because there's no actual evidence she was. Finding an account within our alliance doesn't prove her having others. The best move would have been going to the staff if you honestly believed she had more than one.

Moving beyond that there is a questionable motive as to why you sought to provide us with it. I also question the means and how accurate the report would have been, knowing who was seeking it - a formerly aggrieved party. I suppose it certainly is possible you genuinely believed the information, felt yourself to be helping us all the while a personal or organizational search for revenge would be fulfilled. What ever the case I’m most displeased at what could be construed as attempts to involve us in a feud even if the feud itself was only cause for the pursuit of information.

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='16 April 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1271442649' post='2262974']
Why don't you just ask her to come back to CoJ then I know she gets on IRC and talks to you all, and after this, I doubt we'd have any desire to know anything abou it.[/quote]
I tried talking her out of self-deleting; even offered some pizza and cheez-its should she. Alas she refused. Truly for such an exquiste offer to be rejected ones mind must have already come to a firm decision.

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[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 April 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1271447712' post='2263088']
This is ridiculous. MCXA didn't even know for sure that the person they were looking for was actually in the Cult, let alone her actual identity. I see no evidence that SCY was doing anything more than following up on a tip-off received.[/quote]
They were looking for Francesca so they knew the actual identity of who they were looking for. Why is SCY following up on tip-offs?

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='16 April 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1271447712' post='2263088']
[OOC]I am totally against the hounding of rerolls but an accusation of multis is a serious one and I don't see how you can fault anyone for looking into it.[/OOC]
[/quote]

[OOC]As am I, but to the best of my knowledge, he wasn't really looking into it.[/OOC]

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I'm watching this thread. Be sure to pay attention to the rules. OOC in IC/trolling/discussion of moderation issues, among others, are still not acceptable.

EDIT: By the way, if you suspect someone of being a multi, it's better to report it. To us.

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It all depends on SCY's intent, really. If it was done for the purpose of keeping tabs on Francesa, then yes, it's certainly an inappropriate action, however if his intent was to go to CoJ and say, "Hey, I have reason to believe someone has [OOC]multiple accounts[/OOC], and one of them is in your alliance, just a heads up", then he doesn't deserve the attention he is receiving here. [OOC]It may have been unnecessary, as he could have just reported the issue to the mods and been done with it, but you certainly can't fault him for attempting to gather evidence first.[/OOC]

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[quote name='Vasuda' date='16 April 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1271398336' post='2262457']
This behaviour is simply inexcusable. Part of the reason perma-ZI was so hated was because it involved people taking the hunt of the accused to another level (OOC: through things like IP traces, IRC idents, etc). These types of actions have no place on Digiterra, and should not be tolerated. As we see from this example, even when the target (and this person [i]is[/i] still a target for the MCXA) is not subject to direct attack, it can still very easily drive them from the world through fear, frustration, and intimidation.
[/quote]

personally i am of two minds. first- for MCXA they got told Fran had multis in at least 2 alliances, why CoJ was contacted i have no clue since according to SCY, there was no reason to believe she was there. now, i guess Schat went to SCY stating that Fran was in his alliance. never once did i hear anything in the logs about ZIing.

and second- i don't like tracking rerolls but if they announce themselves, then frankly, they deserve what they get in terms of not being trusted. (this is not to say they deserve being ZIed, but i can understand if alliance A had a spy in their ranks who rerolled several months later, announced who they were and then tried to join alliance A only to be rejected based on who the reroll was in a former life)

but tracking IPs and IRC idents do have a place in CN but that is solely to find spies.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='16 April 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1271450348' post='2263163']
and second- i don't like tracking rerolls but if they announce themselves, then frankly, they deserve what they get in terms of not being trusted. (this is not to say they deserve being ZIed, but i can understand if alliance A had a spy in their ranks who rerolled several months later, announced who they were and then tried to join alliance A only to be rejected based on who the reroll was in a former life)

but tracking IPs and IRC idents do have a place in CN but that is solely to find spies.
[/quote]


were i an alliance who had been spied on, i would absolutely track those that spied on me, not so much to hound them, but i'd like to keep them out of my alliance.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='16 April 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1271450348' post='2263163'] and second- i don't like tracking rerolls but if they announce themselves, then frankly, they deserve what they get in terms of not being trusted. (this is not to say they deserve being ZIed, but i can understand if alliance A had a spy in their ranks who rerolled several months later, announced who they were and then tried to join alliance A only to be rejected based on who the reroll was in a former life)[/quote]
To my knowledge she never attempted to rejoin alliance A through the course of past events but rather alliance B. As a result MCXA lacking trust for her is to be regarded as inconsequential.

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[quote name='Hyperbad' date='16 April 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1271451079' post='2263173']
To my knowledge she never attempted to rejoin alliance A through the course of past events but rather alliance B. As a result MCXA lacking trust for her is to be regarded as inconsequential.
[/quote]

no, in order to keep someone out and make sure someone wasn't [i]ever[/i] in your alliance again, you would kind of have to keep tabs on someone

Edited by mike717
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[quote name='mike717' date='16 April 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1271451181' post='2263178']
no, in order to keep her out and make sure someon wasn't [i]ever[/i] in your alliance again, you would kind of have to keep tabs on someone
[/quote]
I'm not seeing the relevance of this statement to the one you quoted considering the context of the dicussion.

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[quote name='mike717' date='16 April 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1271451181' post='2263178']
no, in order to keep someone out and make sure someone wasn't [i]ever[/i] in your alliance again, you would kind of have to keep tabs on someone
[/quote]

Wouldn't checking the people who join your alliance make more sense?

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[quote name='Hyperbad' date='16 April 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1271451573' post='2263185']
I'm not seeing the relevance of this statement to the one you quoted considering the context of the dicussion.
[/quote]


It doesn't matter if she did not try to join Alliance A. Alliance A would still want to keep her out, and make sure she never joined. Especially if she had previously spied on them AND came across other pieces of intelligence. The point being, there are legit reasons to keep tabs on someone without actually wanting to cause them harm, but to do so you actually have to keep tabs on them and follow up, whether or not they are trying to join your alliance now or not, because they might in the future.

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I'm afraid I don't really see what the issue here is. One member of MCXA hears some information about a multi/re-roll and passes it along to CoJ, and that multi has not only a brutal history with MCXA, but is also someone most of the OWF (grudgingly) knew. Not that it's something I'd probably do myself, since as stated before, Francesca really shouldn't matter to MCXA. But honestly, was there anything wrong with passing information? I know it's different for every alliance leader, but somehow i'd imagine that alliances would like to know if a member of theirs is a multi/reroll/spy, since you know, you may not actually want the player (of course the initial convo was between Schatt + her, so no one would have known if he was okay with it or not). Wars and Viceroyships have occurred because of this lack of information before.

This kind of reminds me of the PC raid onto Echelon's protectorate. It didn't matter that Echelon was almost completely in on the right (save only for being lazy with the cyberwiki), the 'Peanut Gallery' used it as an excuse to bash Echelon into a bloody pulp, simply because they didn't like them. It doesn't matter the action MCXA did, which in this case was pretty harmless either way, haters will express disapproval and some will bandwagon on.

This thread is nothing but fake outrage.

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[quote name='Eric Cantona' date='16 April 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1271449272' post='2263141']
By the way, if you suspect someone of being a multi, it's better to report it. To us.
[/quote]
This is the most important line in the thread.

This thread seemingly cannot progress without discussing evidence of multis or how someone should have behaved given information about multis. When you receive a tip that person [i]x[/i] may have a multi you need to report it to the staff, not go to the alliance in which you suspect the multi resides. I am locking this thread because it has been a constant discussion of moderation issues since about page 1.

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