Interest decrease?

[Horus Lytton]

Hi,

It came to my attention recently about my tax collection. I charge my citizens 10% tax off their salary, and I know for me, 12% interest is added to that, not on the first day, but every day after that when taxes go uncollected. I only collect taxes if I run out of funds to pay my bills, and I do pay bills daily.

It seems a silly thing, but I'm not sure whether this is a bug. It seems perplexing. Over the course of what will be 10 days now, I collect $7.90 from each citizen. I should be collecting taxes, plus interest for the last 8 days. Around the 6th day, I am pretty sure I maxed out the $10,000 limit, so I should not be collecting anymore interest, but the $10K added to whatever taxes were pooled upon the day I collect. My problem is, I have lost thousands of dollars off the interest, which now is just a little over $500.

I've been told that interest can decrease if there's a decrease in income, which are caused by changes in trades or happiness points lost. I've been monitoring this everyday, and I can tell you, I know when income changes. When I maxed the interest savings and when I'm collecting now, my citizens' tax amount never changed. My trades remain, and I'm pretty sure the Happiness value hasn't budged either. My NS has remained unchanged as I can also see from the charts. All I'm doing is paying bills daily, then collecting when I run out of funds. Nothing should be adjusted, except everything is to increase when I have uncollected taxes. I don't recall ever losing citizens either. So, unless CN has financial data of all transactions and nation data recording any changes, I'm pretty sure with the close monitoring I've done, that this should not happen.

I'm discussing this currently in my alliance's forums. Maybe I'm too new and haven't been well informed. Either way, this isn't explained very well.

[Snow Dan]

I don't think that this is a bug.[quote name='Taxes screen']
12% per day on available cash.
[/quote]Interest for tax collection is based on you current funds. By waiting until you run out of funds, you are reducing the principle that your interest is based on.

[Horus Lytton]

If that is the case, then why would it make sense to add interest based on YOUR nation's budget, when that interest is added to the taxes you collect that's based on citizens' salaries? So, if you run out of funds, you lose that interest? Then where's the incentive?

Anyway, I'll take note of this for this cycle and see if this is what it is.

[Fizzydog]

I know this is off topic, but you should always have your tax rate at 28%, gives you (usually) maximum money.

[Horus Lytton]

I've been recommended already to increase it to 28% in an audit. I pay less on bills than I do when I collect taxes, so I'm not worried about losing money if I do. The issue here is about the interest (bonus cash). In my case, if I had more than $10,000, so that I get that amount of interest, then I get $10,000, plus whatever taxes were collected each day - that's fine. But if I have less than 10K on collection day, then, I'd get something like $500 instead of $10,000. I don't get to keep the 10K, but I keep whatever is in the wallet, so to speak, and essentially lose money, more than I should. I won't get the money I needed.

Here's a better picture: I collect the same amount of taxes each day, which is no problem, I'll have a certain amount - say $15,000 a day - and for 10 days, that should amount to $150,000. If I have barely anything in my pocket, then the final collection amount added from the interest that was around $500, becomes $150,500. If you're saying that it depends if I have 12% more than $10,000 when I go to collect, I'd get $160,000. I'd rather get that $10,000 extra as it is a huge difference in how much is in the nation's budget. If I didn't have much money, the max interest would have been a great benefit and a great boost when I need it. I'm not trying to complain, because I'm not really losing money, but I'm not profiting from the maximum potential as I had thought it was once. If this is the case, then I'd have to change my financial strategy.

[Itsuki Koizumi]

[quote]Earned Interest Since Last Collection $10,000.00
12% per day on [b]available cash.[/b] (Max $10,000)
No interest on first day.[/quote]

So if you have 1mil, you would collect: 10k as interest
If you have about 100 dollars, you would collect: 12 dollars

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' date='08 April 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1270762284' post='2253393']
So if you have 1mil, you would collect: 10k as interest
If you have about 100 dollars, you would collect: 12 dollars
[/quote]

Snow Dan had already pointed that out after my first post, or did you not read the rest of the discussion already explaining that?

[admin]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' date='08 April 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1270762284' post='2253393']
So if you have 1mil, you would collect: 10k as interest
If you have about 100 dollars, you would collect: 12 dollars
[/quote]

This is correct. Horus Lytton, now that you have noted this I don't understand what your issue is.

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='admin' date='09 April 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1270864720' post='2254923']
This is correct. Horus Lytton, now that you have noted this I don't understand what your issue is.
[/quote]

I should add that, as I just looked into this a few days before collection I had less than $500 when I looked at this, then when I collected it, I got slightly more than $500 this time. If I'm paying out all my bills, I should be losing cash, and therefore losing money. That didn't happen. In the few days before I did my audit, I had $10,000 interest collected for a couple days, before it dropped to its low state now.

If you're adding interest, you should keep adding to the amount of whatever you have in a collection. You don't have to subtract anything. You keep adding until you get to $10,000 then you can't add anymore, so you don't have to do anything. That's what I thought interest was about. If you're saying it is based on whatever day of whatever amount I have, regardless of the amount I had the day before in interest, I'd lose money because I'm paying bills every time and not collecting each day, but I shouldn't gain more after I'm losing money because I spent it.

So, it's been both increasing and decreasing, whenever I'm spending money and paying bills off my available funds. So, the thought of decreasing interest, gives me little interest to collecting a few hundred dollars of interest that's added to the uncollected taxes. Like I put in my example, for 10 days it is uncollected, the tax collection is 10X more than what was uncollected in the 1st day, at the 10th day, then I add that interest in based on the fact I had little cash left and only got a few hundred out of it. But if I collect on the 5th day, it is only 5X more than the 1st day, but I get $10,000 extra from the interest added to it, because I had available funds then. But as long as I keep paying bills and not collecting for days, I've seen the total interest amount fluctuating over time.

This is not something explained well in any manual I have seen thus far, because that inconsistency goes unexplained, and the benefit of adding interest is not so attractive, since you don't get the full amount of extra cash when you need it. Plus, it isn't based on citizens' salaries, even though the interest is added to the taxes when you go to collect it.

[xenon]

[quote name='Horus Lytton' date='10 April 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1270916224' post='2255567']
I should add that, as I just looked into this a few days before collection I had less than $500 when I looked at this, then when I collected it, I got slightly more than $500 this time. If I'm paying out all my bills, I should be losing cash, and therefore losing money. That didn't happen. In the few days before I did my audit, I had $10,000 interest collected for a couple days, before it dropped to its low state now.

If you're adding interest, you should keep adding to the amount of whatever you have in a collection. You don't have to subtract anything. You keep adding until you get to $10,000 then you can't add anymore, so you don't have to do anything. That's what I thought interest was about. If you're saying it is based on whatever day of whatever amount I have, regardless of the amount I had the day before in interest, I'd lose money because I'm paying bills every time and not collecting each day, but I shouldn't gain more after I'm losing money because I spent it.

So, it's been both increasing and decreasing, whenever I'm spending money and paying bills off my available funds. So, the thought of decreasing interest, gives me little interest to collecting a few hundred dollars of interest that's added to the uncollected taxes. Like I put in my example, for 10 days it is uncollected, the tax collection is 10X more than what was uncollected in the 1st day, at the 10th day, then I add that interest in based on the fact I had little cash left and only got a few hundred out of it. But if I collect on the 5th day, it is only 5X more than the 1st day, but I get $10,000 extra from the interest added to it, because I had available funds then. But as long as I keep paying bills and not collecting for days, I've seen the total interest amount fluctuating over time.

This is not something explained well in any manual I have seen thus far, because that inconsistency goes unexplained, and the benefit of adding interest is not so attractive, since you don't get the full amount of extra cash when you need it. Plus, it isn't based on citizens' salaries, even though the interest is added to the taxes when you go to collect it.
[/quote]

It is pretty straight forward; if you go inactive, and have enough cash, you get 10k more. Also, if you start doing tech deals and don't blow out all the money, then you will always get the bonus when you go inactive.

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='xenon' date='10 April 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1270935178' post='2255813']
It is pretty straight forward; if you go inactive, and have enough cash, you get 10k more. Also, if you start doing tech deals and don't blow out all the money, then you will always get the bonus when you go inactive.
[/quote]

I think that's oversimplifying it. Let's say I got 10K right now on the first day interest is added (not the first day of tax collection, but the first day interest is added). Over time, do you think that that 10K will be static whenever I decide to collect, or does it dynamically change according to what's in your nation's pocket for it's expenditures?

[Captain Nathan Brittles]

[quote name='Horus Lytton' date='11 April 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1270958910' post='2256120']
I think that's oversimplifying it. Let's say I got 10K right now on the first day interest is added (not the first day of tax collection, but the first day interest is added). Over time, do you think that that 10K will be static whenever I decide to collect, or does it dynamically change according to what's in your nation's pocket for it's expenditures?
[/quote]

It's dynamic. Everything involving collections is based on the exact moment you collect. You don't accrue income/interest that carries over to the next day. That's why when you've looked at various times the interest amounts fluctates. As you pay bills, your cash on hand drops. Since cash on hand determines interest income anything you do that reduces the amount on hand will also reduce potental interest when you collect.

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='Captain Nathan Brittles' date='11 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270962918' post='2256169']
It's dynamic. Everything involving collections is based on the exact moment you collect. You don't accrue income/interest that carries over to the next day. That's why when you've looked at various times the interest amounts fluctates. As you pay bills, your cash on hand drops. Since cash on hand determines interest income anything you do that reduces the amount on hand will also reduce potental interest when you collect.
[/quote]

Then explain how I had less than $500 at one time, but when I collected, it went up over $500 when I was paying bills the whole time. I should have lost interest, but I didn't.

[Titus Pullo]

[quote name='Horus Lytton' date='11 April 2010 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1270964568' post='2256194']
Then explain how I had less than $500 at one time, but when I collected, it went up over $500 when I was paying bills the whole time. I should have lost interest, but I didn't.
[/quote]

Could it be that the 12% per day of interest canceled out your loss of principle?

[Captain Nathan Brittles]

[quote name='Horus Lytton' date='11 April 2010 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1270964568' post='2256194']
Then explain how I had less than $500 at one time, but when I collected, it went up over $500 when I was paying bills the whole time. I should have lost interest, but I didn't.
[/quote]

If you look at your collection screen, the amount of the money shown you would collect as interest is the amount you would collect if you collect taxes right at that exact moment. As conditions change, then so will that amount. Meaning "at one time" could have been 12% of a larger sum of money but for only one day while when you actually collected it was 12% of a smaller sum of money yes, but it was for ten days. The number of days made up for receiving 12% on a smaller sum of money. Collecting one day's interest on $1000 is $120 where collecting ten days interest on $200 is $240.

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='11 April 2010 - 03:03 AM' timestamp='1270969369' post='2256234']
Could it be that the 12% per day of interest canceled out your loss of principle?
[/quote]

I think you mean 'Loss of Principal'.

[quote name='Captain Nathan Brittles' date='11 April 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1270992245' post='2256322']
If you look at your collection screen, the amount of the money shown you would collect as interest is the amount you would collect if you collect taxes right at that exact moment. As conditions change, then so will that amount. Meaning "at one time" could have been 12% of a larger sum of money but for only one day while when you actually collected it was 12% of a smaller sum of money yes, but it was for ten days. The number of days made up for receiving 12% on a smaller sum of money. Collecting one day's interest on $1000 is $120 where collecting ten days interest on $200 is $240.
[/quote]

Let's keep this simple. This is starting to almost sound confusing.

Now, I hope you accidentally threw in an extra 0 in the $240, because 12% of $200 is really $24. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you made a typo just to make your point. You explained that the interest is based on the cash I have at that moment, which is what I would get added to the taxes if I collect then.

However, I also mentioned that at one point, I had an interest increase when I should have had a decrease because I'm not collecting taxes - I'm spending the money the whole time. What I mean is, if instead of the $24 as I should, I get the magical $240 if that was intentional. that would be 10 more than what I should have in interest, but it is also twice as much interest as I had when I had $1,000 cash.

So, this situation seems odd, which is why I'm asking what the explanation is for interest to be increasing if it is based on the cash I have that I'm using for expenditures. I shouldn't have this happen, unless I walked into some twilight zone; I would not be aware of it. The whole idea is that the interest is added to the uncollected taxes which always increases each day its untouched. The interest however, as you explained, is based on the cash one has at the moment.

So if I stretch it too long, I'm going to lose more of the interest, even though I'll have a whole bunch of taxes to collect, but I haven't even run out of cash yet for paying my debts. It seems I might have to raise my bills to pay for more than $83,000 just so if I fall under debt on a bill that high, I can keep doing what I'm doing and always have the $10,000 interest, and not less than that. I won't have to worry then about these things.

[Captain Nathan Brittles]

[quote name='Horus Lytton' date='12 April 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1271047718' post='2257092']
I think you mean 'Loss of Principal'.



Let's keep this simple. This is starting to almost sound confusing.

Now, I hope you accidentally threw in an extra 0 in the $240, because 12% of $200 is really $24. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you made a typo just to make your point. You explained that the interest is based on the cash I have at that moment, which is what I would get added to the taxes if I collect then.

However, I also mentioned that at one point, I had an interest increase when I should have had a decrease because I'm not collecting taxes - I'm spending the money the whole time. What I mean is, if instead of the $24 as I should, I get the magical $240 if that was intentional. that would be 10 more than what I should have in interest, but it is also twice as much interest as I had when I had $1,000 cash.

So, this situation seems odd, which is why I'm asking what the explanation is for interest to be increasing if it is based on the cash I have that I'm using for expenditures. I shouldn't have this happen, unless I walked into some twilight zone; I would not be aware of it. The whole idea is that the interest is added to the uncollected taxes which always increases each day its untouched. The interest however, as you explained, is based on the cash one has at the moment.

So if I stretch it too long, I'm going to lose more of the interest, even though I'll have a whole bunch of taxes to collect, but I haven't even run out of cash yet for paying my debts. It seems I might have to raise my bills to pay for more than $83,000 just so if I fall under debt on a bill that high, I can keep doing what I'm doing and always have the $10,000 interest, and not less than that. I won't have to worry then about these things.
[/quote]

It was not a typo it is and was meant to read $240. You are correct that $200 at 12% is $24 for a day, but if you'll re-read my example, it was for 10 days worth of interest which is $24*10=$240. This seems to be where you're confused. Interest is based at the time of collection by taking the cash you have on hand, multiplying by 12% and then multiplying it by the number of days you were eligible to collect interest with a $10,000 cap. You never get interest on the first day so the number of days you collect interest will always be one less than you collect taxes on. So if you go 3 days without collecting and collect; you'll draw 2 days worth of interest based on your current cash on hand. If it's 10 days then interest will be based on 9 days. This is how it's possible for you to be spending money and have the interest paid be higher than when you look at the totals earlier; you collect less per day, but for more days. If the cash on hand remaining is high enough, you collect more overall.

By the way, taxes fundamentally work the same way. When you collect, it's based on the exact moment you collect. So if the day you intend to collect something adverse happens to your nation like being attacked and put into anarchy, it will affect ALL the days you collect for, not just the last day when the event occurred. At the exact moment you collect the game determines the number of citizens you have, their gross income and the taxes they pay based on the tax rate you set to determine the amount per day you are to collect and then that is multiplied by the number of days since you last collected to compute the total income you receive. So if you are doing a back collection for 10 days, infrastructure bought on day 2 will have the same exact effect on income as the same infrastructure bought just before you collect.

[Horus Lytton]

[quote name='Captain Nathan Brittles' date='12 April 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1271050014' post='2257150']
It was not a typo it is and was meant to read $240. You are correct that $200 at 12% is $24 for a day, but if you'll re-read my example, it was for 10 days worth of interest which is $24*10=$240. This seems to be where you're confused. Interest is based at the time of collection by taking the cash you have on hand, multiplying by 12% and then multiplying it by the number of days you were eligible to collect interest with a $10,000 cap. You never get interest on the first day so the number of days you collect interest will always be one less than you collect taxes on. So if you go 3 days without collecting and collect; you'll draw 2 days worth of interest based on your current cash on hand. If it's 10 days then interest will be based on 9 days. This is how it's possible for you to be spending money and have the interest paid be higher than when you look at the totals earlier; you collect less per day, but for more days. If the cash on hand remaining is high enough, you collect more overall.

By the way, taxes fundamentally work the same way. When you collect, it's based on the exact moment you collect. So if the day you intend to collect something adverse happens to your nation like being attacked and put into anarchy, it will affect ALL the days you collect for, not just the last day when the event occurred. At the exact moment you collect the game determines the number of citizens you have, their gross income and the taxes they pay based on the tax rate you set to determine the amount per day you are to collect and then that is multiplied by the number of days since you last collected to compute the total income you receive. So if you are doing a back collection for 10 days, infrastructure bought on day 2 will have the same exact effect on income as the same infrastructure bought just before you collect.
[/quote]

I was hoping it was a typo. But I think I see what you mean.

So, to clarify, when you don't spend the money, the interest increases until it maxes out at $10,000? Otherwise, the interest goes to a do-over and recalculates every time there's a change in how much cash you have? This makes sense as a possible explanation for what I'm experiencing. It did make me sad to find out that I lost the $10,000, which really woke me up. I tried looking at a lot of places for the answer explaining how this works, and haven't yet found documentation for it, unless I've been looking in the wrong places and not hard enough. I guess I'll have to accept that it does this, regardless of the fact that the interest is added to taxes that have been uncollected the whole time.

[admin]

Question answered. Closing.