The Easter Sunday Accords

[Fallen Fool]

Okay generally I've been steering clear of these debates, but enough is enough.

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='07 April 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1270660660' post='2251782']
Any abuse you received was a result of your actions. Your lack of communication with our alliance forced us to only rely on the outward manifestation of your orders. Which, I think most people will agree, were pretty seriously screwed up.[/quote]So basically you're restating what Grub already largely admitted to? Why precisely?

[quote]So your allegiance to a non-ally "friendly" alliance was stronger than NSO's need for relief?[/quote]You were at war with GOD, which means that GOD nations were attacking you, which means that by attacking GOD we were assisting you. Not to mention that by bringing the hurt to GOD's nations we stepped up pressure on them enough to, hopefully, cause them to try and pressure Fark into peace.

You can't twist that logic out of existence.

[quote]So again, your motivation for a clear-cut enemy trumped our need for relief? Most everyone agrees that GOD was applying next to no pressure on NSO. They weren't even within our concerns. I am also happy to see you admit that it was after much pressure that you decided we warranted assistance. Not by the wording of our treaty or the connection between our alliances.[/quote]Again with this line.

Were GOD applying pressure on NSO? Maybe, maybe not. I don't have facts to say one way or the other.

Would hurting GOD lead to them applying pressure on Fark to end the conflict? Grub certainly thought so, which is why Polar declared on GOD. To, you know, help NSO.

[quote]Oh come off it. Only as opinion tide turned against you have you decided that NSO deserves some mud-slinging. Your consistent efforts to clear your name and regain your public standing are sickening at best. Not only were your allies unaware of your plans and actions, but your high-level government as well. Further, you did not see fit to mention or highlight any disagreements or transgressions against Polaris by NSO until it was politically beneficial for you to do so.[/quote]Where I come from airing disagreements with allies publicly is bad form. So yeah, it's not really a surprise that Grub chose not to plaster his concerns all over the public boards or try to build political capital out of them.

Instead he probably went to Ivan and attempted to calmly, and rationally express his reservations. In fact, he did go to Ivan to express his concerns. So perhaps instead of saying "POLAR NEVER MENTIONED DISAGREEMENTS WITH NSO EVER" you should consult with your predecessor.

[quote name='Heft' date='07 April 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1270662287' post='2251812']And once again, it is somehow our fault for being repeatedly screwed over and left holding the bag. [/quote]I believe Grub admitted that his lack of communication did cause problems but that, in the end, every alliance makes its own destiny. NSO included.

[quote name='heggo' date='07 April 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1270662684' post='2251821']You told GOD that your war on them was just for show. I have logs detailing how this is what you told them. We found out about your scheme. You were going to hit GOD "lightly" in a quick "in and out". You can't claim you got into that war to help us anymore.[/quote]Where precisely did you get these logs and did you ever stop to think about whether or not they were like, you know, real? Or if they were in their proper context?

[jimbacher]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1270665376' post='2251880']
Okay generally I've been steering clear of these debates, but enough is enough.

So basically you're restating what Grub already largely admitted to? Why precisely?

You were at war with GOD, which means that GOD nations were attacking you, which means that by attacking GOD we were assisting you. Not to mention that by bringing the hurt to GOD's nations we stepped up pressure on them enough to, hopefully, cause them to try and pressure Fark into peace.

You can't twist that logic out of existence.

Again with this line.

Were GOD applying pressure on NSO? Maybe, maybe not. I don't have facts to say one way or the other.

Would hurting GOD lead to them applying pressure on Fark to end the conflict? Grub certainly thought so, which is why Polar declared on GOD. To, you know, help NSO.

Where I come from airing disagreements with allies publicly is bad form. So yeah, it's not really a surprise that Grub chose not to plaster his concerns all over the public boards or try to build political capital out of them.

Instead he probably went to Ivan and attempted to calmly, and rationally express his reservations. In fact, he did go to Ivan to express his concerns. So perhaps instead of saying "POLAR NEVER MENTIONED DISAGREEMENTS WITH NSO EVER" you should consult with your predecessor.

I believe Grub admitted that his lack of communication did cause problems but that, in the end, every alliance makes its own destiny. NSO included.

[b]Where precisely did you get these logs and did you ever stop to think about whether or not they were like, you know, real? Or if they were in their proper context?[/b]
[/quote]

How could telling someone you were screwing over your ally have a proper context?

[Doitzel]

[i]Grub[/i] couped Electron Sponge? [i]Grub[/i] did? The revisionism, the [i]arrogance![/i] Every time you think you've got something in the bag some crafty little worm comes and snatches it away, just like that!

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1270665376' post='2251880']
You were at war with GOD, which means that GOD nations were attacking you, which means that by attacking GOD we were assisting you. Not to mention that by bringing the hurt to GOD's nations we stepped up pressure on them enough to, hopefully, cause them to try and pressure Fark into peace.

You can't twist that logic out of existence.

Again with this line.

Were GOD applying pressure on NSO? Maybe, maybe not. I don't have facts to say one way or the other.

Would hurting GOD lead to them applying pressure on Fark to end the conflict? Grub certainly thought so, which is why Polar declared on GOD. To, you know, help NSO.[/quote]

The same logic can be applied to FARK. Further, FARK was doing actual damage to us. So rather than just applying the political pressure, you'd also be relieving military pressure from us. While GOD satisfies one of those criteria, it does not both. Why apply indirect pressure, when you have the opportunity to do it directly? Instead, a blind hatred for an alliance, and a friendly disposition of a non-treatied one allowed your government to make its decision. I'm not sure about you, but I generally don't want to associate with an alliance who will factor it's "friendliness" into a decision on who to attack where allies are concerned.

[quote]
Where I come from airing disagreements with allies publicly is bad form. So yeah, it's not really a surprise that Grub chose not to plaster his concerns all over the public boards or try to build political capital out of them.

Instead he probably went to Ivan and attempted to calmly, and rationally express his reservations. In fact, he did go to Ivan to express his concerns. So perhaps instead of saying "POLAR NEVER MENTIONED DISAGREEMENTS WITH NSO EVER" you should consult with your predecessor.
[/quote]

I have. The conversations centered around NSO's unwillingness to submit herself to the terms offered. Never once did Grub, or other Polaris government attempt to understand or represent our beliefs . Instead the desire for peace and retention of an image trumped our reasoning. Your alliance went as far as to represent us as acting silly to those combating against us. Does that sound like an ally attempting to gain us fair terms? I think not.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='jimbacher' date='07 April 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1270665637' post='2251884']
How could telling someone you were screwing over your ally have a proper context?
[/quote]If you've ever had a private conversation with AlmightyGrub, then you'd know that he unconsciously phrases things really vaguely.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Heft' date='07 April 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1270662287' post='2251812']
And once again, it is somehow our fault for being repeatedly screwed over and left holding the bag.
[/quote]

Heft, I don't think Grub's post was blaming you. I agree that you got the shortest end of all the sticks, and it even had a little dog poop on it. I would be mad if I were in NSO's shoes, too, but I didn't see Grubs post put any blame on you guys for what happened. NpO squirmed their way around, this way and that, to avoid the most damage and still attempt to fulfill their obligations. Not very respectable that they left you out to dry, but I don't think it was deliberate treachery.

I wouldn't go so far as to call these aggressive declarations 'incompetence' by the leaders but both TOP/IRON and NpO made almost the same sort of decision: namely, one that wasn't very well thought out. The lack of thought about the extension into what may happen past a few steps ended up causing a world war and left all their allies picking up the tab.

Good luck rebuilding.

[Chief Savage Man]

There's no denying that vitriol between Sith and Polar is mutual. Polar has done its share of blaming Sith for the troubles between the two.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='07 April 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1270665911' post='2251889']
The same logic can be applied to FARK. Further, FARK was doing actual damage to us. So rather than just applying the political pressure, you'd also be relieving military pressure from us. While GOD satisfies one of those criteria, it does not both. Why apply indirect pressure, when you have the opportunity to do it directly? Instead, a blind hatred for an alliance, and a friendly disposition of a non-treatied one allowed your government to make its decision. I'm not sure about you, but I generally don't want to associate with an alliance who will factor it's "friendliness" into a decision on who to attack where allies are concerned.
[/quote]

By virtue of their attack on GOD, they were able to tie up alliances like VE and Kronos that could have run roughshod over several other alliances at a time but instead had to focus entirely on fighting the behemoth that Polar is. Polar's entry, the way they entered, saved your coalition members hundreds of nuke attacks and the losses that could be associated with them.

Polar lost 3 million NS so that you and your friends didn't have to.

[Bob]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='07 April 2010 - 09:56 AM' timestamp='1270648553' post='2251591']
Grub gave a whole new meaning to the word traitor. I don't think on Planet Bob anyone had made it in series like he did or at least even close to the way he did it. Scum is what Grub is. Or the greatest incompetent I have ever seen, I am yet to decide.
[/quote]
You should probably read context before taking whatever opportunity you can get to berate Grub.

Hint: we were talking about his time in NAAC and leaving to join Polaris. Not his recent actions.

I don't view him as a traitor, scum, or incompetent personally. I view him as a zealot dedicated to his cause and willing to create conflict for it, but honorable enough to keep his agreements. Condemning him for his actions recently is your choice, but you cannot call him a traitor to NAAC as Chalaskan was attempting to state. !@#$%^&*, absolute !@#$%^&*.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='07 April 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1270666308' post='2251897']
By virtue of their attack on GOD, they were able to tie up alliances like VE and Kronos that could have run roughshod over several other alliances at a time but instead had to focus entirely on fighting the behemoth that Polar is. Polar's entry, the way they entered, saved your coalition members hundreds of nuke attacks and the losses that could be associated with them.

Polar lost 3 million NS so that you and your friends didn't have to.
[/quote]

You can easily choose MK, or ODN, or iFOK or even FARK and absorb 3m of damages that could have been dealt elsewhere. Further, this is after the fact justification. Even if it had worked, it was not the stated rationale for the action in question.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Wad of Lint

[Goldie]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='07 April 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1270666715' post='2251901']
You can easily choose MK, or ODN, or iFOK or even FARK and absorb 3m of damages that could have been dealt elsewhere.
[/quote]

That doesn't have any relevance on the argument though. The fact is is that they did absorb and dish out damage that would (not could) have been dealt elsewhere.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='07 April 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1270666928' post='2251905']
That doesn't have any relevance on the argument though. The fact is is that they did absorb and dish out damage that would (not could) have been dealt elsewhere.
[/quote]

And what I'm telling you, is the argument itself is irrelevant. The damage could be absorbed anywhere by Polaris. It does not matter if it was GOD, VE, or an alliance that worships cleaned and boiled crawfish. The capacity for absorbing damage is the same.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote]Grub couped Electron Sponge? Grub did? The revisionism, the arrogance! Every time you think you've got something in the bag some crafty little worm comes and snatches it away, just like that![/quote]Poor Random.

[OOC]He remains the William Henry Harrison of Polar Emperors. Always forgotten. [/OOC]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='07 April 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1270665911' post='2251889']
The same logic can be applied to FARK. Further, FARK was doing actual damage to us. So rather than just applying the political pressure, you'd also be relieving military pressure from us. While GOD satisfies one of those criteria, it does not both. Why apply indirect pressure, when you have the opportunity to do it directly? Instead, a blind hatred for an alliance, and a friendly disposition of a non-treatied one allowed your government to make its decision. I'm not sure about you, but I generally don't want to associate with an alliance who will factor it's "friendliness" into a decision on who to attack where allies are concerned.[/quote]Attacking FARK directly would have only united it's membership against more perceived foreign aggression and prolonged the war. Attacking GOD likely would lead to an annoyed and overextended Xiph who would likely willingly, and angrily, launch into tirades against his allies for not ending the front so the overall coalition could fry bigger fish.

Not to mention escalating the front in general ensured that the rest of their coalition needed to pay more attention to us, and less to their other enemies. Which, again, was not good news for them since they had bigger fish to fry. The result was more pressure brought to bear against Fark.

[quote]I have. The conversations centered around NSO's unwillingness to submit herself to the terms offered. Never once did Grub, or other Polaris government attempt to understand or represent our beliefs . Instead the desire for peace and retention of an image trumped our reasoning. Your alliance went as far as to represent us as acting silly to those combating against us. Does that sound like an ally attempting to gain us fair terms? I think not.[/quote]One of the downsides of an alliance being led by an autocrat who is a Polar Imperator Emeritus, and being allied to Polar, is that a great amount of the autocrat-to-Polar government dialogue happens in Polar's private government boards.

What this means is that, within the context of the NSO peace discussions, a lot of Polar gov's frustration was expressed in our forums in our threads where Ivan read and replied and where, unfortunately for you, you don't have access. Your lack of access, however, does not mean that they never happened. It only means, apparently, that you are reduced to making ignorant arguments without bothering to check with Ivan.

[quote]You can easily choose MK, or ODN, or iFOK or even FARK and absorb 3m of damages that could have been dealt elsewhere. Further, this is after the fact justification. Even if it had worked, it was not the stated rationale for the action in question.[/quote]MK never fought NSO. Neither, if I recall correctly, did ODN. So why, precisely, would we have fought them? As for iFOK, well, we just declared peace with them. That would be a dick move morally.

Of course all of that is irrelevant since you would have been just as pissed if we declared on anyone other then Fark apparently.

So basically fallacious argument is fallacious.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Fallen_Fool

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='07 April 2010 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1270653217' post='2251666']
Meaningless words
[/quote]
That whole post was just hilarious.

[Ashok]

[quote]Of course all of that is irrelevant since you would have been just as pissed if we declared on anyone other then Fark apparently.[/quote]

Because Fark was the one killing us. GOD never was the threat. We were asking for relief from being bashed by Fark but it was not given because as Grub stated Fark was the ones he felt should be placated not the allies who came into that war for. So excuse us if we feel a little bent out of shape because you want to placate the people who were beating the living hell out of us.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1270668529' post='2251932']
Attacking FARK directly would have only united it's membership against more perceived foreign aggression and prolonged the war. Attacking GOD likely would lead to an annoyed and overextended Xiph who would likely willingly, and angrily, launch into tirades against his allies for not ending the front so the overall coalition could fry bigger fish.[/quote]
If that was actually the plan, it was based on an amusingly flawed conception of Xiphosis's personality and how he is likely to react in that situation.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='07 April 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1270666928' post='2251905']
That doesn't have any relevance on the argument though. The fact is is that they did absorb and dish out damage that would (not could) have been dealt elsewhere.
[/quote]

You have a valid point about very broad strategy, but it's irrelevant to the conversation. I could just as easily say that if Polar had fought Fark instead of Fark/VE/Kronos/WF that Fark could then do less damage on other alliances like IRON, who we are allied to, or Zenith, who Fark attacked and crippled during their assault against gRAMlins. Or Polar could have attacked the Guru Order, that would have just been funny, though that may not have diverted actual NS (but hey, beating up bandwagoners is always good by me). In any event, we were never at war with VE/Kronos/WF, and weren't really fighting GOD, so as far as the NSO goes, we don't really care that Polar's involvement against VE may have diverted attention away from said abstract alliances that VE could have been attacking.

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1270668529' post='2251932']
Attacking FARK directly would have only united it's membership against more perceived foreign aggression and prolonged the war. Attacking GOD likely would lead to an annoyed and overextended Xiph who would likely willingly, and angrily, launch into tirades against his allies for not ending the front so the overall coalition could fry bigger fish.

Not to mention escalating the front in general ensured that the rest of their coalition needed to pay more attention to us, and less to their other enemies. Which, again, was not good news for them since they had bigger fish to fry. The result was more pressure brought to bear against Fark.[/quote]

Or, a war against Fark could have given them a legitimate reason to give us terms, which was the reason why we remained in the war well into February. They were holding up terms and even considering reps; GOD was never much an issue towards a peaceful resolution of the war for us.

[quote]One of the downsides of an alliance being led by an autocrat who is a Polar Imperator Emeritus, and being allied to Polar, is that a great amount of the autocrat-to-Polar government dialogue happens in Polar's private government boards.

What this means is that, within the context of the NSO peace discussions, a lot of Polar gov's frustration was expressed in our forums in our threads where Ivan read and replied and where, unfortunately for you, you don't have access. Your lack of access, however, does not mean that they never happened. It only means, apparently, that you are reduced to making ignorant arguments without bothering to check with Ivan.
[/quote]

Sorry, but the "you and none in your alliance except for your leader knows what happened, so shut up, you're ignorant" argument doesn't work well on the OWF or anywhere really. If there is actually a bit of evidence to suggest that our account of events is inaccurate, I personally would like to see it. I doubt this would pose much of a problem for Ivan.

[heggo]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1270665376' post='2251880']
Where precisely did you get these logs and did you ever stop to think about whether or not they were like, you know, real? Or if they were in their proper context?
[/quote]
Funny that you mention it, I actually did look into those things. I even confronted Grub about it, who conceded that he said the majority of those things, though he did try to add a (rather unbelievable in my mind) spin on them before immediately popping offline.


Edit: Because you see FF, one of the downsides of being in an alliance led by an autocrat is that a great amount of the autocrat-to-foreign government dialogue happens in the autocrat's query window.

What this means, in the context of Polar's promise to go easy on GOD, is that a lot of Grub's treacherous idiocy was expressed on IRC in windows where others read and replied and where, unfortunately for you, you didn't have access. Your lack of access, however, does not mean that these assurances to GOD never were issued. It only means, apparently, that you are reduced to making ignorant arguments without bothering to check with Grub.

Edited April 7, 2010 by heggo

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1270668529' post='2251932']
... random justification ...
[/quote]

The justification for your decisions throughout the war continues to change. Inconsistent rationale for the movements of polar are continuously developed as the matter is pressed. I'm sorry, but even if such arguments are valid, it's tarnished by the delayed presentation and continued evolution of your past decision-making process.

[Sandwich Controversy]

Polar didn't tell them that, they told us that, and I in turn told GOD that about five minutes before the attack began. They were very surprised and pissed off about it, to say the least

[NoFish]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1270668529' post='2251932']
Attacking GOD directly would have only united it's membership against more perceived foreign aggression and prolonged the war. Attacking Fark likely would lead to an annoyed and overextended Randomly_Jim who would likely willingly, and angrily, launch into tirades against his allies for not ending the front so the overall coalition could fry bigger fish.[/quote]

You see, if I switch the names around it makes just as much sense as it did to begin with. Which is, of course, to say it's all wild conjecture. I honestly have trouble thinking of any alliance who would react in the way you described to being attacked in the manner we were.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='07 April 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1270671570' post='2251994']
Polar didn't tell them that, they told us that, and I in turn told GOD that about five minutes before the attack began. They were very surprised and pissed off about it, to say the least
[/quote]
That's a pretty mild way of putting our response. I seem to recall using a few of my more creative strings of profanity on hearing the news.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Ashok' date='07 April 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1270670717' post='2251974']
Because Fark was the one killing us. GOD never was the threat. We were asking for relief from being bashed by Fark but it was not given because as Grub stated Fark was the ones he felt should be placated not the allies who came into that war for. So excuse us if we feel a little bent out of shape because you want to placate the people who were beating the living hell out of us.[/quote]I believe I covered that elsewhere.

[quote name='Delta1212' date='07 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1270670806' post='2251977']If that was actually the plan, it was based on an amusingly flawed conception of Xiphosis's personality and how he is likely to react in that situation.[/quote]I don't doubt that Xiph's initial reaction was rabid indignation followed by a desire to destroy Polar and then deeply salt the earth. After he cooled down and realized that Polar under Penguin was not a threat, however, it was logical to assume that he'd want to refocus all his energy and resources fighting elsewhere. The assumption was that if Fark belligerently refused to refocus then Xiph, and presumably the rest of SF, would respond negatively and bring more pressure to bear towards an equitable peace.

Not an illogical theory really, but definitely one that didn't seem to pan out. Largely, I think, because Fark proved reasonable and NSO proved...difficult, but also possibly because we, in a rather long moment of desperation, misread the situation and personalities involved in it.

[quote]Or, a war against Fark could have given them a legitimate reason to give us terms, which was the reason why we remained in the war well into February. They were holding up terms and even considering reps; GOD was never much an issue towards a peaceful resolution of the war for us.[/quote]You haven't been reading my posts very carefully, have you? Because I totally covered this.

[quote]Sorry, but the "you and none in your alliance except for your leader knows what happened, so shut up, you're ignorant" argument doesn't work well on the OWF or anywhere really. If there is actually a bit of evidence to suggest that our account of events is inaccurate, I personally would like to see it. I doubt this would pose much of a problem for Ivan.[/quote]Well since we're talking about discussions in the private Polar government forum I can't exactly provide screen shots. I did, however, provide you with a legitimate reference point to verify the facts of what I said by refering you to Ivan.

[quote]Funny that you mention it, I actually did look into those things. I even confronted Grub about it, who conceded that he said the majority of those things, though he did try to add a (rather unbelievable in my mind) spin on them before immediately popping offline.


Edit: Because you see FF, one of the downsides of being in an alliance led by an autocrat is that a great amount of the autocrat-to-foreign government dialogue happens in the autocrat's query window.

What this means, in the context of Polar's promise to go easy on GOD, is that a lot of Grub's treacherous idiocy was expressed on IRC in windows where others read and replied and where, unfortunately for you, you didn't have access. Your lack of access, however, does not mean that these assurances to GOD never were issued. It only means, apparently, that you are reduced to making ignorant arguments without bothering to check with Grub.[/quote]I see what you did there :v

Regardless, the point is fairly irrelevant since I'm sure Grub wasn't lying when he said it and I'm sure he wasn't undermining NSO.

For example, Grub could have told GOD that he didn't want a prolonged or intensive conflict. Both are potentially true (I'm not Grub so I can't attest to his feelings), but neither ensure that Polar ever sought a quick out or held back. If anything, by stating his opinion Grub could have potentially encouraged GOD to increase their pressure on Fark by showing them that this wasn't a war we particularly wanted and it's one we would have ended quickly if possible.

[quote]The justification for your decisions throughout the war continues to change. Inconsistent rationale for the movements of polar are continuously developed as the matter is pressed. I'm sorry, but even if such arguments are valid, it's tarnished by the delayed presentation and continued evolution of your past decision-making process.[/quote]Polar's overall coherence throughout the situation wasn't very solid, in case you didn't notice. Mostly because our Emperor was inactive, and our government largely out of the loop, as can be attested to by the differing opinions and theories proposed over the past few weeks.

Recently, however, Grub's found more time to express himself, as can be evidenced by his recent wall of text, and the overall situation is becoming clearer.

Edit: ffff grammar and rephrasing

Edited April 7, 2010 by Fallen_Fool

[shahenshah]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='07 April 2010 - 01:37 AM' timestamp='1270586227' post='2250660']
Wait a minute, do you mean economic aid by alliances who are not currently under surrender terms? If so I sure would love to know who these friends/allies are.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='07 April 2010 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1270586638' post='2250669']
I'd like some clarification on this point. The 'enablers' (by which I assume you mean various SG alliances) are not at war with IRON and this stipulation is not present in the peace agreement, so I'm not sure that's true.
[/quote]

[quote name='AirMe' date='07 April 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1270586820' post='2250672']
You are correct. There is no restriction on outside aid. It is up to the defeated alliances to manage their slots properly in order to pay the reps off in the allotted time.
[/quote]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='07 April 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1270586979' post='2250675']
What I got for that is that it would be viewed as an act of war towards Gremlins, which would then result in a response by their paperless allies. Although yeah definitely need Shahenshah to clarify this.
[/quote]

Gentlemen, the point was raised, it would be viewed as aiding an enemy hence there exists a defacto economic embargo on IRON. At the same time tho, Gre can trade with anyone. Its one of the many factors that is 'enabling' Gre.

Bob, I'd like to say that I do not think that everyone in SC should be considered enablers.

Edited April 7, 2010 by shahenshah

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1270673006' post='2252028']
You haven't been reading my posts very carefully, have you? Because I totally covered this.[/quote]

You covered it alright. You may have overlooked that the GOD war itself was completely symbolic, contributed almost nothing militarily to your allies (as GOD wasn't, you know, actually fighting us), and as we all know, did little to achieve a quicker resolution with Fark.

[quote]Well since we're talking about discussions in the private Polar government forum I can't exactly provide screen shots. I did, however, provide you with a legitimate reference point to verify the facts of what I said by refering you to Ivan.[/quote]

Then I would say not to make arguments with evidence you cannot publicly back up - this would be like [ooc] A US Gov't official citing a classified document as his evidence for his argument, but can't back it up[/ooc]. Given that this argument is pretty irrelevant to begin with, and that since you're not authorized to release your evidence, that this entire point is basically frivolous?

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='KainIIIC' date='07 April 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1270674775' post='2252066']
Then I would say not to make arguments with evidence you cannot publicly back up - this would be like [ooc] A US Gov't official citing a classified document as his evidence for his argument, but can't back it up[/ooc]. Given that this argument is pretty irrelevant to begin with, and that since you're not authorized to release your evidence, that this entire point is basically frivolous?
[/quote]


[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='07 April 2010 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1270673006' post='2252028']
I did, however, provide you with a legitimate reference point to verify the facts of what I said by refering you to Ivan.
[/quote]

I think the point is that you can ask Ivan for the proof if you want it.