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[quote name='Alterego' date='06 April 2010 - 02:06 AM' timestamp='1270533964' post='2250118']
They didnt even have a reason to enter against IRON but picked them out of dozens or alliances and now want to keep an eternal war going against them with the backing or their paperless allies.
[/quote]
Perhaps you missed this:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79442

That looks like a reason to hit them to me.

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[quote name='Alterego' date='06 April 2010 - 07:06 AM' timestamp='1270533964' post='2250118']
They didnt even have a reason to enter against IRON but picked them out of dozens or alliances and now want to keep an eternal war going against them with the backing or their paperless allies.
[/quote]

Exactly. They declared on us in back-to-back global conflicts and then decided that it was us who aligned ourselves against them and therefore we need to surrender unconditionally so that [i]we[/i] don't do it again. Sounds like a BS excuse to keep us locked in eternal war to me. :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Branimir' date='05 April 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1270505218' post='2249600']
Was fun seeing Letum destroy Denial, btw.
[/quote]
I dunno, I came away with the opinion that they both made utter fools of themselves.

[quote name='Letum' date='06 April 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1270532330' post='2250091']
That is one way to phrase it.

The other way to phrase it is that IRON, a war-weary alliance of 3.4m NS, has to fight off a fresh alliance of 3.9m NS and an immense advantage within a certain rank range. For example, IRON only has 20 nations that are [i]within striking range[/i] of the top 37 of Gramlins. With both a numbers and strength disparity, those nations would be toast.

IRON has no capacity to force a victory in this war, which means that any resolution rests on whether the Gramlins will shift from their position due to public, rather than military, pressure.
[/quote]
Of course, this also means that there're a lot of Gramlins members who cannot even attack anyone in IRON (and certainly not anyone in war mode), which reduces the Gramlins' effective strength. Assuming IRON isn't asinine enough to come out of PM in a foolhardy enough fashion as to present juicy 3-on-1 targets (a likely assumption), I'd think the numbers advantage in the middle and lower tiers would give you guys the capability to hand out a fairly effective beating throughout the bottom half of Gramlins, with their possible response being limited by both their topheaviness and their smaller numbers. I suspect that quite a few IRON nations are at NS levels nonrepresentative of their actual strength (tech, military wonders, etc.), which would only make it more one-sided. I wonder how long Gramlins wants its bottom half continually trashed.

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[quote name='The Warrior' date='05 April 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1270535603' post='2250144']
Exactly. They declared on us in back-to-back global conflicts and then decided that it was us who aligned ourselves against them and therefore we need to surrender unconditionally so that [i]we[/i] don't do it again. Sounds like a BS excuse to keep us locked in eternal war to me. :rolleyes:
[/quote]
Well isn't that what you wanted? :smug:

[quote name='andrew734' date='29 January 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1264750943' post='2140356']
Who says we are going to surrender just kill me i will fight till my nation is gone to ZI and will fight till admin deletes my nation bring the fighting hail the mighty IRON
[/quote]

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[quote name='Choader' date='05 April 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1270536905' post='2250166']
Well isn't that what you wanted? :smug:
[/quote]

You are sooo correct! I'm sure they wanted to have some egotists try to kill their alliance...yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

I hope that Grem change their ways and offer a peace that is fair soon. From one of the more moralist alliances to one that is a contender to the old NPO is really quite the change.

To the rest of the alliances we peaced with, well fought war, save NpO for obvious reasons.

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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1270541309' post='2250208']
You are sooo correct! I'm sure they wanted to have some egotists try to kill their alliance...yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

I hope that Grem change their ways and offer a peace that is fair soon. From one of the more moralist alliances to one that is a contender to the old NPO is really quite the change.

To the rest of the alliances we peaced with, well fought war, save NpO for obvious reasons.
[/quote]
What are these obvious reasons you refer to?

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[quote name='CloudGT4' date='04 April 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1270440696' post='2248487']
wow C&G turned into the new tC.. great job of proving you guys were better, and changing tech extortion in CN..

O/Torn
O/IRON
O/TOP for a good fight.

Much <3 for ya.
[/quote]

I’m delighted that you’ve finally recognised the disgusting, bullying nature of the bloc you were part of for so many years.


[quote name='Doitzel' date='04 April 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1270442574' post='2248584']
Considering Pacific's history with friendships, perhaps that is what has him worried.
[/quote]

LOL

Edited by Lonely
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[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='06 April 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1270544823' post='2250230']
What are these obvious reasons you refer to?
[/quote]

I think all of CN knows...it isn't warring abilities so much as changing directions to save your hide. Kinda like going from a disbanded NAAC (when you were acting MOD for such alliance) to NpO who disbanded them the day it happened. Trust is a wonderful thing amigo...one item you will never have from me again. I don't care if you value it or not..jus saying.

Edited by Chalaskan
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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 03:15 AM' timestamp='1270545339' post='2250232']
I think all of CN knows...it isn't warring abilities so much as changing directions to save your hide. Kinda like going from a disbanded NAAC (when you were acting MOD for such alliance) to NpO who disbanded them the day it happened. Trust is a wonderful thing amigo...one item you will never have from me again. I don't care if you value it or not..jus saying.
[/quote]

[OOC] The Vatican will move to Mecca before Polaris ever cuddles up with TOP. [/OOC] That’s been the case for a very long time and I think you know it. With that in mind, can you seriously expect Grub to side with you in a war where you're destroying his allies?

Edited by Lonely
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[quote name='Lonely' date='06 April 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1270545869' post='2250234']
[OOC] The Vatican will move to Mecca before Polaris ever cuddles up with TOP. [/OOC] That’s been the case for a very long time and I think you know it.
[/quote]

Did you know they'd cuddle up with MK before they would cuddle up with you? Heh...like I said, trust is a wonderful thing. Unlike the obvious farce in values (Christians VS. Muslims), your OOC remark brings, some people cling to values and act on them regardless of adverse odds like the Christians and Muslims do. (NpO/Grub made it seem like those values were bringing us together,(Christian/Christian vs. Muslims or vice versa.) and furthermore asked our help.) I was fooled into believing those values over ruled any history. So, no, I didn't know it...to the point I ran to NpO and fought along side them before TOP even decided on entering....which I was not wanting them to. Your welcome to try again though.

EDIT: Regardless of your claims the original post I made to Grub doesn't change. He abandoned, and ran to NpO the day NAAC disbanded regardless of being the MOD for NAAC during GWIII. Furthermore he saved his and his alliances pixels after TOP made a huge (MISTAKE) pre-emptive strike backing HIS war. I call shenanigans.

Lastly, this is based on a personal note. I will never trust Grub again. It took a similarity in moral grounds for him to take me the second time around. It will never happen again, that is all my post was about. NpO and members should be ashamed of themselves.

Edited by Chalaskan
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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 03:28 AM' timestamp='1270546105' post='2250236']
Did you know they'd cuddle up with MK before they would cuddle up with you? Heh...like I said, trust is a wonderful thing. Unlike the obvious farce in values, your OOC remark brings, some people cling to values and act on them regardless of adverse odds. (NpO/Grub made it seem like those values were bringing us together, and furthermore asked our help.) I was fooled into believing those values over ruled any history. So, no, I didn't know it...to the point I ran to NpO and fought along side them. Your welcome to try again though.
[/quote]

Personally, I love Polar and I will always love Polar. I retain many friends in Polaris and I continue to admire their tremendous community. I admit I’m less than impressed with the way they treated us in this war, but essentially the Sith had been gravitating towards the ex-Hegemony bloc for some time, which wasn’t in line with Polar’s foreign affairs strategy. This was bound to create tensions.

Besides, Polar have Electron Sponge. That’s more than enough reason to support them. :awesome:

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[quote name='Lonely' date='06 April 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1270547318' post='2250243']
Personally, I love Polar and I will always love Polar. I retain many friends in Polaris and I continue to admire their tremendous community. I admit I’m less than impressed with the way they treated us in this war, but essentially the Sith had been gravitating towards the ex-Hegemony bloc for some time, which wasn’t in line with Polar’s foreign affairs strategy. This was bound to create tensions.

Besides, Polar have Electron Sponge. That’s more than enough reason to support them. :awesome:
[/quote]

You sound like a plant. Polar started this whole war on a moralist front...ironically, the ex heg were the ones that backed those morals. Karma reverted 360. That is all I can say.

EDIT: I have friends in all aspects of this cyberverse, Polaris included. Doesn't change what their leaders do...that includes TOPs.

Edited by Chalaskan
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Excuse me, I sound like a what? I’ve been a Sith since October last year, under my former identity, The Lonely Man. Unless you’re trying to suggest that somehow Polar pre-emptively planted me before the Frostbite split.... :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 09:56 AM' timestamp='1270547787' post='2250245']
You sound like a plant. Polar started this whole war on a moralist front...ironically, the ex heg were the ones that backed those morals. Karma reverted 360. That is all I can say.

EDIT: I have friends in all aspects of this cyberverse, Polaris included. Doesn't change what their leaders do...that includes TOPs.
[/quote]

How did Karma revert a 360?

Also congrats on peace to whoever has gotten out of this war.

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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1270547787' post='2250245']
You sound like a plant. Polar started this whole war on a moralist front...ironically, the ex heg were the ones that backed those morals. Karma reverted 360. That is all I can say.

EDIT: I have friends in all aspects of this cyberverse, Polaris included. Doesn't change what their leaders do...that includes TOPs.
[/quote]
They backed no morals. Maybe TOP did. Most of the others came in to defend their friends. Understandable. However if you claim that everybody on Polar's side agreed with the CB you'd be dead wrong.

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[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='05 April 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1270484932' post='2249217']
Here's how it really went down:[...]
[/quote]
You just made my day, thanks for that! :v:

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[quote name='Chalaskan' date='06 April 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1270547787' post='2250245']
You sound like a plant. Polar started this whole war on a moralist front...ironically, the ex heg were the ones that backed those morals. Karma reverted 360. That is all I can say.

EDIT: I have friends in all aspects of this cyberverse, Polaris included. Doesn't change what their leaders do...that includes TOPs.
[/quote]


If Polaris started the war on a [b]moralist[/b] stance... wouldn't it then follow that they would do the [b]moral[/b] thing and honor treaties with allies when those allies were aggressively attacked?

So sneaky those polars, never saw that 'honoring of the treaties' coming, they sure did trick everyone with that never before seen brilliant political move!

Edited by Dread
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[quote name='grobend123' date='06 April 2010 - 04:00 AM' timestamp='1270522788' post='2249936']
Mmm, Grämlins, you stay classy
[/quote]

Well seeing as there has been a lack of Grämlins posting thoe I have seen have been well behaved. So thank you :)

[quote name='Heft' date='06 April 2010 - 02:36 AM' timestamp='1270517742' post='2249838']
Is there an official position on what will happen should someone defend IRON/DAWN from Gramlins? I've seen some discussion here but it looked like mostly hearsay and speculation.
[/quote]

I'll try and get this in before some say the inevitable. "Well why don't you do somthing about it and find out"

Personally it's up to them, I would understand if they came in to help us and if they did not. I don't think there is an offical postion.

[quote name='Baldr' date='06 April 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1270512694' post='2249757']
Unconditional surrender. According to the Annonymous Non Government Gramlin, "[i]It means, IRON consents to do what ever we say, when ever we say.[/i]"

That's slavery.

Citation : [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83465&view=findpost&p=2248207"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83465&view=findpost&p=2248207[/url]
[/quote]

[quote]NGG: remember though, i'm a templar, take what i say with a grain of salt[/quote]

Need a better citation brother




[quote name='Vhalen' date='06 April 2010 - 07:34 AM' timestamp='1270535679' post='2250145']
I dunno, I came away with the opinion that they both made utter fools of themselves.


Of course, this also means that there're a lot of Gramlins members who cannot even attack anyone in IRON (and certainly not anyone in war mode), which reduces the Gramlins' effective strength. Assuming IRON isn't asinine enough to come out of PM in a foolhardy enough fashion as to present juicy 3-on-1 targets (a likely assumption), I'd think the numbers advantage in the middle and lower tiers would give you guys the capability to hand out a fairly effective beating throughout the bottom half of Gramlins, with their possible response being limited by both their topheaviness and their smaller numbers. I suspect that quite a few IRON nations are at NS levels nonrepresentative of their actual strength (tech, military wonders, etc.), which would only make it more one-sided. I wonder how long Gramlins wants its bottom half continually trashed.
[/quote]

I don't think it's the bottom half you need to be worried about but the nation of IRON. IRON have a way out and the longer they take to surrender the longer this war will draw out. While I can understand that many in CnG + some otherundeserving buggers may be annoyed by the fact they are not getting thier reps. The fact is that they have those reps in the bank. Regardless of what happens to the Grämlins they will get thier reps one way or another. It's how long IRON and DAWN wants to be paying these reps for that will determine when they surrender. If they do which I hope they will.

Edited by Shamshir
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[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='05 April 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1270484932' post='2249217']
Here's how it really went down:

snip
[/quote]

Comedy potential sky-rocketed here really.

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[quote name='shahenshah' date='06 April 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1270529901' post='2250045']
Alternative would be keep them in peace mode and really do nothing else much, just keep [size="5"][b]destroying our own[/b][/size] improvements and [size="5"][b]wonders[/b][/size] to lower the bills for an unknown duration of conflict where we're stuck under terms and Gre for as long as Gre and its friends want it to be.
[/quote]
Wait, Grämlins are forcing IRON to delete wonders via the war?

Here we go.

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I'm pretty sure that's just standard Shahenshah hyperbole.

However, it is talking out of both sides of their mouth for SG to nominally leave Grämlins out in the cold for their antics, but then say that they'll roll anyone who comes in to help IRON throw off the shackles of injustice. Clearly any alliance which has surrendered during the war under terms which forbid re-entry aren't able to re-enter (that really shouldn't need saying), but there is no justification for backing Grämlins up if they get attacked by alliances not bound by such a term. You have no treaty with them, they are clearly in the wrong and they have a massive military advantage over IRON – forbidding anyone from helping is as dirty as if you were keeping IRON in an eternal war yourselves.

Edit:
[quote]How did Karma revert a 360?[/quote]
It was a 180: in Karma, the Karma coalition was fighting for a moral position; in Bipolar, most of the alliances of Karma chose to fight [i]against[/i] a moral position.

Edited by Bob Janova
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[quote name='Ojiras Ajeridas' date='05 April 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1270462188' post='2248925']
Also we learnt that some alliances meant absolutely unable to fight (like ODN) can put up a nice battle[/quote]
Thanks Ojiras ;). We certainly worked hard to get more organized, its good to know that by and large my fellow ODNistas were proactive on the frontline.

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[quote]Threats, trolling, and hostile sentiments expressed by regular members don't actually mean anything. That is one of the thing that this war has set in stone. Shardoon is a regular member. His posts don't mean anything, and you should not construe them as being indicative of TOP-policy.[/quote]

Threats, trolling, and hostile sentiments expressed by rank-and-file members are not a valid CB nor do they represent the attitude of the alliance as a whole. That said, they do represent the attitude of the individual member, and as board posters we are allowed to take issue with individual members and alliance government is allowed to complain to their counter-party, as I'm informed that in the past, the Order of the Paradox has done so with the Mushroom Kingdom. That said, trolling, threats, and hostile sentiments do not constitute an act of war and as I've said in the first sentence, are not valid CBs. For example, IRON and its friends have been trolling us since the limited war between Athens and TPF. While some people may be annoyed by the quality of their actions, on-board harassment does not constitute a valid casus belli.

So yes, I'm taking your advice: Shardoon is not indicative of TOP-policy. But between myself and Shardoon, while I'm sure my leadership has no intention of attacking TOP again in the near future, I have the feeling he is tempting fate, and fate has no peer when it comes to impulse-control.

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