Federation of Buccaneers

[Choader]

[quote name='Seerow' date='02 April 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1270257222' post='2246000']
I assume you meant to say "over a week before C&G was at war" which would be an accurate statement.


Why, when FoB was actually forced into the war you didn't return back home though is the question at hand. There is no reason for you to have stayed in PC as long as you have, and the only logical conclusion can be that you abandoned your alliance. That's your choice, but don't complain when someone who's stepping up to the plate in your place calls you on it.
[/quote]
It's not abandonment, it's more like coming to a growing realization about the nature of foreign entanglements.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1270257376' post='2246006']
FoB was in good hands with Shinpah, and when you're already at war what difference does it make where you're fighting from. Every one of us who left previous to the attacks on FoB was preoccupied on other fronts.
[/quote]

So your argument here is that because one person stayed behind the alliance was fine?

There is more to war than ramming your own nation into others, you could have been helping your alliance in many other ways than just your personal contribution to the war effort. Instead others had to pick up the slack that you left behind because of your selfish decision to abandon your alliance. Shinpah I'm sure is a great person, but cannot handle everything alone. That kind of responsibility would overwhelm anybody.

[quote]It's not abandonment, it's more like coming to a growing realization about the nature of foreign entanglements. [/quote]

Sounds like a load of tripe to me. You can spin it how you like, you abandoned your alliance, left it with almost no active government, and then expect everyone to be just peachy with it, and get offended when someone points out how you almost destroyed your own alliance in doing so.

Just accept responsibility for leaving, no amount of spin is going to convince anyone other than yourself, that is if you even believe your own logic here.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Seerow

[Quinoa Rex]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1270257118' post='2245998']
Ask your government why it became permanent.
[/quote]

Are you really trying to pin [i]your[/i] desertion on MK?

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1270257118' post='2245998']Again, no. We left when your good polar buddies decided to bring war to our allies, and over a week C&G was at war.[/quote]

That doesn't refute what I said. I said you left during a war - that being the Worst War Ever, not the TOP-C&G War.

[Seerow]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='02 April 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1270257702' post='2246018']
That doesn't refute what I said. I said you left during a war - that being the Worst War Ever, not the TOP-C&G War.
[/quote]

To be fair, FoB wasn't fighting in that war, which to my understanding is why he left.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Seerow' date='02 April 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1270257834' post='2246025']
To be fair, FoB wasn't fighting in that war, which to my understanding is why he left.
[/quote]

I'm well aware of that. My original point was simply that - and I'll reiterate it here - the founders left during a war. This isn't saying anything about who was and wasn't involved in said war at that time (although C&G involvement was inevitable). The statement that originally touched off this series of tangents was not factually incorrect.

*edited for clarity

Edited April 3, 2010 by SirWilliam

[Choader]

What's funny is all of you claiming FoB was wronged are from MK, that speaks volumes right there doesn't it.

[Affluenza]

[quote name='Choader' date='03 April 2010 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1270257118' post='2245998']
Ask your government why it became permanent.
[/quote]

I don't need to...evidence is already in the FoB embassy.

[quote name='Choader' date='03 April 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1270258130' post='2246033']
What's funny is all of you claiming FoB was wronged are from MK, that speaks volumes right there doesn't it.
[/quote]

MK has always looked after it's friends even those that have severe inactivity or who in FoB's case left abandoned somewhat prior to impending war.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Affluenza

[commander thrawn]

Go Shinpah.

Good luck going forward guys.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1270258130' post='2246033']
What's funny is all of you claiming FoB was wronged are from MK, that speaks volumes right there doesn't it.
[/quote]


I can only imagine your thought process here.

"I can't think of any arguments against what they're saying. What do I do?! I wait I know, I'll point out the people I'm arguing with are from MK, they're clearly ganging up on me to make an unreasonable viewpoint seem right, everyone knows they have rediculous propaganda. Clearly once I point this out everyone will realize I was right all along because MK is the root of all evil"

Am I close?

[Choader]

[quote name='Seerow' date='02 April 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1270258327' post='2246041']
I can only imagine your thought process here.

"I can't think of any arguments against what they're saying. What do I do?! I wait I know, I'll point out the people I'm arguing with are from MK, they're clearly ganging up on me to make an unreasonable viewpoint seem right, everyone knows they have rediculous propaganda. Clearly once I point this out everyone will realize I was right all along because MK is the root of all evil"

Am I close?
[/quote]
No, but it's a good try. I don't need to argue anything because apparently our definitions of "at war" and "not at war" are not the same, so there's little use in comparing them. If you consider a skirmish between three alliances that was never intended to escalate being "at war" for FoB then I have little use in discussing it with you.

And no, MK is not the root of all evil. Not by a long shot. Despite an unfortunate falling out I still respect MK for what it is, but not for everything it does.

No one has yet denied Stormsend and Tammerlane were encouraged by their superiors to join FoB and "reorganize" it. There's no rebuttal?

Edited April 3, 2010 by Choader

[Jgoods45]

Sad to see allies of ours arguing amongst one another. I just hope that Choader and Smacky realize they are still allied to FOB and that the proper thing to do would of been to take this to private channels. =/

Oh well, all things will pass and it will work it's self out in the end.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Jgoods45

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1270254718' post='2245933']
Tell me, when did a sudden concern for FoB occur for you and Tamerlane? Did you join of your own volition or were you on a mission?
[/quote]
I joined of my own volition.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1270258527' post='2246047']
No, but it's a good try. I don't need to argue anything because apparently our definitions "at war" and "not at war" are not the same, so there's little use in comparing them. If you consider a skirmish between three alliances that was never intended to escalate being "at war" for FoB then I have little use in discussing it with you.
[/quote]

You're confusing me with SW. I was the one who said from the start FoB was at war and the initial temporary leave was understandable.

What is not understandable is the continued absence, and then the denial that staying from your alliance for so long, including through a period where FoB WAS at war is not abandoning your alliance. Had you returned at the conclusion of WWE, or even once TOP et al declared war on CnG I would have no problem with your action. However you didn't, you stayed in PC while FoB suffered for it, and then come back in this very thread to insult the people who picked up the slack in your place while denying that your actions had any negative impact on FoB.

[quote]No one has yet denied Stormsend and Tammerlane were encouraged by their superiors to join FoB and "reorganize" it. There's no rebuttal? [/quote]

To be honest I thought the accusation was too wild to warrant a response. Stormsend and Tamerlane leaving was a surprise when it happened, and many of us were disappointed. But of course I can't speak for any government level plans, I havent held position in MK in a very long time. I can say I feel I know Archon well enough to judge him organizing such an op to be highly unlikely.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Seerow

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1270258527' post='2246047']
No, but it's a good try. I don't need to argue anything because apparently our definitions of "at war" and "not at war" are not the same, so there's little use in comparing them. If you consider a skirmish between three alliances that was never intended to escalate being "at war" for FoB then I have little use in discussing it with you.

And no, MK is not the root of all evil. Not by a long shot. Despite an unfortunate falling out I still respect MK for what it is, but not for everything it does.

No one has yet denied Stormsend and Tammerlane were encouraged by their superiors to join FoB and "reorganize" it. There's no rebuttal?
[/quote]

Whether or not those two members were sent or joined of their own volition is entirely irrelevant to any issue at hand. Seeing as the charter is in some ways more in line with how it was originally, I don't see what any problem would be.

Also, I see Smacky is still as blunt as usual [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif[/img]

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1270258527' post='2246047']No one has yet denied Stormsend and Tammerlane were encouraged by their superiors to join FoB and "reorganize" it. There's no rebuttal?[/quote]

Yes. MK top brass makes a habit of encouraging active membership to join other alliances.

...seriously?

[AirMe]

Choader, having founded an alliance, I wouldn't leave Ronin if someone paid me. You lost what ever rights you had to FoB when you left. A parent never leaves it's baby behind no matter what the circumstances. If you weren't so blood thirty in your abandonment of your membership you wouldn't have anything to complain about. A substantial amount of time has passed and you still haven't returned to FoB.

Good luck to the new FoB may your journey's be fruitful and your course be true. Yarrrrrrr.

[Choader]

[quote name='Seerow' date='02 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1270258845' post='2246058']
You're confusing me with SW. I was the one who said from the start FoB was at war and the initial temporary leave was understandable.

What is not understandable is the continued absence, and then the denial that staying from your alliance for so long, including through a period where FoB WAS at war is not abandoning your alliance. Had you returned at the conclusion of WWE, or even once TOP et al declared war on CnG I would have no problem with your action. However you didn't, you stayed in PC while FoB suffered for it, and then come back in this very thread to insult the people who picked up the slack in your place while denying that your actions had any negative impact on FoB.
[/quote]
Since you agree with me that FoB was not at war at the time of the alleged desertion, you'll probably also then agree that the opening comment was slanderous to the founders of the alliance. I'm not a founder by the way. While I can appreciate Stormsend working on behalf of my ally over there I don't appreciate the needlessly abrasive introduction to a charter announcement, of all things.

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='02 April 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1270258924' post='2246060']
Yes. MK top brass makes a habit of encouraging active membership to join other alliances.

...seriously?
[/quote]
Yes, seriously. I'll be happy to share with you some snippets that indicate exactly that. You may or may not say they're false but I'd be interested to hear your interpretation.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Mundokiir' date='02 April 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1270258704' post='2246055']
I joined of my own volition.
[/quote]
Hey, Choader, I believe I answered your earlier question.

[Choader]

[quote name='Mundokiir' date='02 April 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1270259910' post='2246086']
Hey, Choader, I believe I answered your earlier question.
[/quote]
Okay then, thanks the answer. If you're around later I'll look you up on IRC tonight.

Same goes for SW and Seerow, I'll be happy to explain my thoughts on your allegations more privately.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1270260120' post='2246092']
Okay then, thanks the answer. If you're around later I'll look you up on IRC tonight.

Same goes for SW and Seerow, I'll be happy to explain my thoughts on your allegations more privately.
[/quote]
You, and all others with questions, are free to look me up on IRC. Look for "Stormsend" in #fob on Coldfront.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1270258130' post='2246033']
What's funny is all of you claiming FoB was wronged are from MK, that speaks volumes right there doesn't it.
[/quote]

I know your reasons for leaving. FoB was certainly hurt by the January departures of most of its active membership. On the other hand, FoB is an alliance, and alliance member nations do generally have the right to pull out. But what you guys did, it did hurt FoB very badly.

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1270258527' post='2246047']
No, but it's a good try. I don't need to argue anything because apparently our definitions of "at war" and "not at war" are not the same, so there's little use in comparing them. If you consider a skirmish between three alliances that was never intended to escalate being "at war" for FoB then I have little use in discussing it with you.

And no, MK is not the root of all evil. Not by a long shot. Despite an unfortunate falling out I still respect MK for what it is, but not for everything it does.

No one has yet denied Stormsend and Tammerlane were encouraged by their superiors to join FoB and "reorganize" it. There's no rebuttal?
[/quote]

If either Stormsend or Tamerlane was encouraged to join FoB, I would have to say that that's about the best thing an ally can do for another. Stormsend is an experienced small alliance leader and diplomat, and Tamerlane used to be MK's MoF, back about 2 years ago. Sending active and talented members to help an alliance gutted of government back on its feet, at the expense of losing active and talented members from your own alliance, is about the most selfless and loyal act I can think of. That said, I have no idea if Stormsend or Tamerlane was encouraged to go or if they just chose to go help out a MK ally in need. Either way, I don't think it can be argued that it's a bad thing. Certainly, an alliance cannot function without any people doing work for it.

[Shinpah]

I am rather curious what allegation were being made aside from the truth.

We have several facts that the charter no longer represented the alliance's operation at all, that a large portion of our active (and 4 government members) did leave FoB during a war (which is entirely true, Stormsend did not specify that FoB itself was in a war). FoB may have been in good hands with me, but I'm only one person, and I'm rather pleased that Stormsend and Tamerlane decided (or were told to come over, it makes little difference in my eyes) to provide services to FoB; I would have been a lot more pleased if you had been willing to put aside your petty bickering with what was a close ally of yours and decide to come back to an alliance that you had put so much work into. Instead, you just gave up; with a very short period between "this is a temporary movement of members to PC" and "FoB is doomed".

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the current membership of FoB feels wronged over such a change of heart.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Shinpah

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Choader' date='02 April 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1270260120' post='2246092']
Same goes for SW and Seerow, I'll be happy to explain my thoughts on your allegations more privately.
[/quote]

I've made no allegations in this thread. I'm always open to private discourse though.

[MacFluffers]

Meow.

o/ FoB

Let's see how well this works...