The New Grämlins

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280252596' post='2391402']
This sounds like a good idea, much better than ignoring a bunch of lunatics who are committed to harm us.
[/quote]
If you really have any fear--but let's fess up--then now you know the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280253199' post='2391416']If you really have any fear--but let's fess up--then now you know the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war.[/quote]Our ongoing war with Gramlins has little to do with "the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war".
Even if that was indeed what Gramlins were trying to achieve, which I doubt, them being defeated is apparently a very bad service to this idea. They could promote it by joining the ESA, possibly with their ideas expressed there, but they refused to accept that. After almost 4 months and their alliance being destroyed, they are finally beginning to realize that this was not such a bad idea after all and are trying to return to that moment in history.
This war is about Gramlins trying to make themselves special and set a precedent which is seen as dangerous by many citizens of planet Bob.
Now, although their proud does not allowed them to admit it, they are taught humility and the full repurcussions of trying to use an imaginary advantage to humiliate other alliances.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Golan 1st

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280251612' post='2391370']
Let's sanction all of them.
[/quote]
That's actually a pretty good idea, if it will end this nonsense more quickly.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280254772' post='2391435']
Our ongoing war with Gramlins has little to do with "the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war".
Even if that was indeed what Gramlins were trying to achieve, which I doubt, them being defeated is apparently a very bad service to this idea. They could promote it by joining the ESA, possibly with their ideas expressed there, but they refused to accept that. After almost 4 months and their alliance being destroyed, they are finally beginning to realize that this was not such a bad idea after all and are trying to return to that moment in history.
This war is about Gramlins trying to make themselves special and set a precedent which is seen as dangerous by many citizens of planet Bob.
Now, although their proud does not allowed them to admit it, they are taught humility and the full repurcussions of trying to use an imaginary advantage to humiliate other alliances.
[/quote]


Joining the ESA?
A significant point is that the ESA as written is unacceptable; that should be clear to you.

Also, no matter how often you say it, this is not about humiliating IRON. In fact, we have said over and over again that the path of accountability is the most honorable path possible. It is restorative, just and courageous... by no means humiliating.

The only "precedent" would be having an alliance allocute their wrongdoings without having a gun to their head; and that would be remarkably respectable.


[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1280256697' post='2391455']
That's actually a pretty good idea, if it will end this nonsense more quickly.
[/quote]


Even assuming you could get a sanction, do you really think that I (collecting in anarchy and at ZI) care about sanctions?

Edited July 27, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Lord Rune]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280256825' post='2391461']
Joining the ESA?
A significant point is that the ESA as written is unacceptable; that should be clear to you.

[/quote]

I don't recall you expressing your dissatisfaction with them at the time of their signing. (you being Gremlins)

[Crymson]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280248517' post='2391297']
I know it's cute to keep talking about the silly unconditional surrender, but we all know Ramirus has stopped asking for that.
[/quote]

Yes; after months of megalomania and needless war and after seeing his alliance shrink to 25% the size of IRON/DAWN, Ramirus finally changed his tune from unconditional surrender---and instead of accepting white peace, he had the unbelievable gall to still demand that IRON submit to terms.

[quote]
15 nations pose near 0 threat to IRON or DAWN. None of them are in aggressive wars, and I dare say that if IRON ignored Gremlins only 2 or 3 Gremlins would bother with IRON.
[/quote]

Are you implying that IRON/DAWN are somehow now the oppressors of the Gramlins?

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280253199' post='2391416']
If you really have any fear--but let's fess up--then now you know the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war.
[/quote]

Now I see that you're just trying to get a rise out of people. Forget that I even tried to discuss this with you.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Crymson

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280256825' post='2391461']
Joining the ESA?
A significant point is that the ESA as written is unacceptable; that should be clear to you.[/quote]If you weren't blinded by your own arrogance, you could amend the ESA the way you want to do it now before it was signed (so it would not be as written now, Einstein), and not ask to amend it after 4 months of war that destroyed your alliance.
Now, the best you can hope for is white peace or what you may call "honourable death" for rejecting it.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280256825' post='2391461']Even assuming you could get a sanction, do you really think that I (collecting in anarchy and at ZI) care about sanctions?[/quote]

I don't think you care about much. Your own alliance, for example.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Lord Rune' timestamp='1280257680' post='2391475']
I don't recall you expressing your dissatisfaction with them at the time of their signing. (you being Gremlins)
[/quote]
The fact that they didn't sign should say they didn't find them acceptable.

[Lord Rune]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1280260318' post='2391512']
The fact that they didn't sign should say they didn't find them acceptable.
[/quote]

They were all for paperlessness then, so they wouldn't have signed it. They still could have voiced their dissatisfaction.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280260223' post='2391510']
If you weren't blinded by your own arrogance, you could amend the ESA the way you want to do it now before it was signed (so it would not be as written now, Einstein), and not ask to amend it after 4 months of war that destroyed your alliance.
Now, the best you can hope for is white peace or what you may call "honourable death" for rejecting it.
[/quote]


Einstein?
It doesn't take brilliance to understand (after 250+ pages) that we do not want to "force" you to do anything with a boot on your neck.

This has been repeated ad nauseum: The process is nearly meaningless unless you do so without being forced and without bargaining.

Reading Comprehension.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280254772' post='2391435']
Our ongoing war with Gramlins has little to do with "the full repurcussions of declaring pre-emptive war".
Even if that was indeed what Gramlins were trying to achieve, which I doubt, them being defeated is apparently a very bad service to this idea. They could promote it by joining the ESA, possibly with their ideas expressed there, but they refused to accept that. After almost 4 months and their alliance being destroyed, they are finally beginning to realize that this was not such a bad idea after all and are trying to return to that moment in history.
This war is about Gramlins trying to make themselves special and set a precedent which is seen as dangerous by many citizens of planet Bob.
Now, although their proud does not allowed them to admit it, they are taught humility and the full repurcussions of trying to use an imaginary advantage to humiliate other alliances.
[/quote]
You're either cavalier and have nothing to fear, or you must continue to war Gremlins until there is no threat. You can't be both inside one hour.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1280258368' post='2391483']

Now I see that you're just trying to get a rise out of people. Forget that I even tried to discuss this with you.
[/quote]
It's best for you that you withdraw from any intellectual debate with me with such a cowardly dismissal and admittance that you're not equipped.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Schattenmann

[flak attack]

[quote name='Lord Rune' timestamp='1280260474' post='2391519']
They were all for paperlessness then, so they wouldn't have signed it. They still could have voiced their dissatisfaction.
[/quote]
They are still at war, yes?

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Even assuming you could get a sanction, do you really think that I (collecting in anarchy and at ZI) care about sanctions? [/quote]
I'm pretty sure BD and Omas would care about them. I'd hope that you would care about the possibility of them being sanctioned, but since none of you seem to care about the welfare of the alliance or your alliancemates any more, maybe you wouldn't.

[Ashoka the Great]

FYI to interested observers:

For those who do not recognize alliances with fewer than fifteen members, you may now safely close Gramlins' embassies, if such exist.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280256825' post='2391461']
Even assuming you could get a sanction, do you really think that I (collecting in anarchy and at ZI) care about sanctions?[/quote]

For your nation, it would make little difference. However, for the top 5 ranked Gramlins, and every Gramlin in peace mode, I suspect it would make a difference.

It's pretty much beside the point, as the Aqua senators aren't going to do that.

You wouldn't be collecting at ZI in anarchy if you weren't still stubbornly demanding that IRON prostrate themselves before you. The war continues because you refuse to be reasonable.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280256825' post='2391461']
Joining the ESA?
A significant point is that the ESA as written is unacceptable; that should be clear to you.
[/quote]

Unacceptable to you, funny how the other umpteen alliances who signed it liked it enough to end the war with it. This goes back to a point I've tried to make to you and Gre before. Its not about what you want its about what you can get. And right now you can either get nuked some more, or take the white peace. Gre imposing terms on IRON simply isn't an option.
[quote]
Also, no matter how often you say it, this is not about humiliating IRON. In fact, we have said over and over again that the path of accountability is the most honorable path possible. It is restorative, just and courageous... by no means humiliating.[/quote]

Glad to hear you are so supportive of this path, when will Gre be taking the honorable path of accountability for its heinous actions?

[quote]The only "precedent" would be having an alliance allocute their wrongdoings without having a gun to their head; and that would be remarkably respectable.[/quote]


Funny how you've kept that gun to their head the whole time while madly claiming you didn't want to do that isnt it?


[quote]
Even assuming you could get a sanction, do you really think that I (collecting in anarchy and at ZI) care about sanctions?
[/quote]

The sole concern for individual welfare rather than the fate of your entire alliance and community is sort of emblematic of the problem that has led you here.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280261161' post='2391534']Einstein?
It doesn't take brilliance to understand (after 250+ pages) that we do not want to "force" you to do anything with a boot on your neck.

This has been repeated ad nauseum: The process is nearly meaningless unless you do so without being forced and without bargaining.

Reading Comprehension.[/quote]I don't expect it to go through, but I must try.
It obviously requires some brilliant Gramlin to understand (at least) two things:
1. A war, by definition, is a violent mean. You don't CHOOSE to fight somebody to get him to do anything "without a boot on his neck". Instead, you end the war and try to convince him to see that you are right and accept guilt. So either you are even more brainless than I thought until now (if that's even possible) or what you say is complete nonsense. I apparently respect you more than you respect yourself and believe that the latter is the case, and that this is some incredibly strange attempt to minimize PR damage. You thought that you coerce us to submission. This is how nearly everybody sees it. This is what it was.
2. When you anger somebody by trying to humiliate them, you should expect them to resist you with more resolve.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280261225' post='2391535']You're either cavalier and have nothing to fear, or you must continue to war Gremlins until there is no threat. You can't be both inside one hour.[/quote]I am not sure what you are trying to say. If you are suggesting that the only two possibilities are exclusively:
1. Us being terrified by Gramlins to the point where we would accept any demand they make.
2. Us being convinced in our power to defeat Gramlins
Then you are an idiot.
Gramlins can still cause us troubles and it would be foolish of us to let them do this. We are confident, however, in our power to defeat Gramlins and either force them to agree to peace or eliminate them (we prefer the first. It appears that Gramlins prefer the latter).

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280261225' post='2391535']It's best for you that you withdraw from any intellectual debate with me with such a cowardly dismissal and admittance that you're not equipped.[/quote]Your hollow arguments are what makes any "intellectual debate" impossible.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Golan 1st

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280267001' post='2391655']
Your hollow arguments are what makes any "intellectual debate" impossible.
[/quote]

Yes well since about pg 67 its been a real representation of the pillars of intellect that frequent our world (you and I included). However sir your proposition is folly, because Schattenmann never makes a hollow argument.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1280268753' post='2391684']
Yes well since about pg 67 its been a real representation of the pillars of intellect that frequent our world (you and I included). However sir your proposition is folly, because Schattenmann never makes a hollow argument.
[/quote]I actually agree with him on several issues which are not represented in this thread.
But go over his posts in the last 3-4 pages and decide for yourself if any of them makes any sense.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Golan 1st

[Fernando12]

So um where is that at?

Still war? IRON still offering white peace? Gramlins offering to keep dying a slow death?

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280270409' post='2391700']
So um where is that at?

Still war? IRON still offering white peace? Gramlins offering to keep dying a slow death?

[/quote]Yeah, you got it right.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1280264643' post='2391602']
I'm pretty sure BD and Omas would care about them. I'd hope that you would care about the possibility of them being sanctioned, but since none of you seem to care about the welfare of the alliance or your alliancemates any more, maybe you wouldn't.
[/quote]

You know me, Omas and BD well enough to know that each of us is able and willing to make such sacrifices.
You'd do yourself a favor not to assume that we (especially those you mentioned specifically!) don't care about each others' well-being or don't fully understand the weight of what we're doing.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1280267001' post='2391655']
I don't expect it to go through, but I must try.
It obviously requires some brilliant Gramlin to understand (at least) two things:
1. A war, by definition, is a violent mean. You don't CHOOSE to fight somebody to get him to do anything "without a boot on his neck". Instead, you end the war and try to convince him to see that you are right and accept guilt. So either you are even more brainless than I thought until now (if that's even possible) or what you say is complete nonsense. I apparently respect you more than you respect yourself and believe that the latter is the case, and that this is some incredibly strange attempt to minimize PR damage. You thought that you coerce us to submission. This is how nearly everybody sees it. This is what it was.
2. When you anger somebody by trying to humiliate them, you should expect them to resist you with more resolve.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. If you are suggesting that the only two possibilities are exclusively:
1. Us being terrified by Gramlins to the point where we would accept any demand they make.
2. Us being convinced in our power to defeat Gramlins
Then you are an idiot.
Gramlins can still cause us troubles and it would be foolish of us to let them do this. We are confident, however, in our power to defeat Gramlins and either force them to agree to peace or eliminate them (we prefer the first. It appears that Gramlins prefer the latter).

Your hollow arguments are what makes any "intellectual debate" impossible.
[/quote]

Golan: Schattenman is only trying to get a rise out of you; he doesn't actually believe what he's saying. Don't give in!

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1280272747' post='2391735']
You know me, Omas and BD well enough to know that each of us is able and willing to make such sacrifices.[/quote]
It looks like Omas is now in the MHA, so I'm not sure as to whether he actually is willing to make sacrifices for you anymore?