The New Grämlins

[deathman1212]

[quote name='Banksy' date='13 June 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1276410106' post='2335991']
You could always help IRON out if you want it to end so badly.
[/quote]

Its seems those who wish to help have been told they are not allowed to.

[Schmoo]

I don't feel one shred of remorse or guilt, nor will I ever. Did we make a huge strategic blunder? Absolutely. Are we a group of morally bankrupt people? Absolutely not. Gre, you will see no surrender, allocution, contrition, amends, remorse, guilt, shame, apology or w/e from IRON. There is no need to argue this anymore. Personally, I think we should take the offer of white peace off the table. Not to make demands for reps, but to completely destroy you. You arrogant pricks.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='deathman1212' date='13 June 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1276435616' post='2336111']
Its seems those who wish to help have been told they are not allowed to.
[/quote]

Unless I'm mistaken, not ALL alliances are tied to surrender terms, thus they have a choice to defend iron, They just fear the repercussions from other alliances. I see that as slightly different to "NOT ALLOWED", they have a choice, they just fear the outcome of involving other allies.

[ccabal86]

Truth be told, even if the Ramlins agree to "white peace", there is no telling if they won't just re-ignite the conflict whenever they feel like it.

At this point their word is worth less then dirt.

[Byron Orpheus]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 June 2010 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1276402534' post='2335834']
All the past we leave behind,
We debouch upon a newer mightier world, varied world,
Fresh and strong the world we seize, world of labor and the march


I choose not to live by the princible you claim to.
[/quote]
I make a pact with you, Walt Whitman -
I have detested you long enough.
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father


It is your right not to live by the only principle that is objective, but sadly you cannot avoid it through wishful thinking. You alliance has reached a level of delusion that if the most insane leaders of this world, past and present, were combined into one person, that singular embodiment of delusion wouldn't be in your current position in his most feverish dreams.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='13 June 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1276435832' post='2336115']
Unless I'm mistaken, not ALL alliances are tied to surrender terms, thus they have a choice to defend iron, They just fear the repercussions from other alliances. I see that as slightly different to "NOT ALLOWED", they have a choice, they just fear the outcome of involving other allies.
[/quote]

You have a very odd definition of the word 'choice'. So what do you consider skydiving without a parachute? A lifestyle?

Getting destroyed at this stage to help finish a war would be criminally stupid.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='13 June 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1276446236' post='2336206']
You have a very odd definition of the word 'choice'. So what do you consider skydiving without a parachute? A lifestyle?

Getting destroyed at this stage to help finish a war would be criminally stupid.
[/quote]


If you're not tied to surrender terms then you have a choice to attack Gremlins and face the consequences, this is choice you make by defining the outcome to your alliance, which will most likely result in you being smashed, it is still a choice. whether you deem it stupid or not does not deflect away from the fact it is still a choice.


You could choose to sit and spout on about how immoral Gremlins are and how they should be beaten into pulp, or you could choose to back your stance and help IRON. simply saying it is stupid (which I agree it would be) does not instantly stop it from being a choice.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Clash]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 June 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1276385772' post='2335511']
What is required:

Step 1: IRON Surrender Unconditionally.
[b]What does this mean?[/b]

IRON will officially surrender and await further instructions.
They will do this without placing any conditions on the process or terms GRE may offer.
Their surrender does not at all imply that they are expected to accept or comply with subsequently offered terms.
Following their surrender, they are given quarter.

Step 2: IRON is given demilitarization orders.
[b]What does this mean?[/b]
GRE will tell IRON the requirements for proceeding to terms in this peace process.
IRON will choose to comply or return to a state of war. Declining the process and choosing to return to war is not a "violation" because surrendering does not imply agreement to subsequent terms for demilitarization

Step 3: GRE delivers sets of terms for restitution
[b]What does this mean?[/b]
GRE will give instruction to IRON on what steps to carry out to serve their restitution.
IRON will choose to comply or return to a state of war. Declining the process and choosing to return to war is not a "violation" because demilitarization does not imply agreement to subsequent terms for restitution[/quote]
I find these conditions to be incredibly immoral, unenforced and also under the circumstances, incredibly stupid. IRON is NOT going to surrender to you under ANY circumstances. This is not going to change. They have absolutely no reason to do so. They are right and you are wrong, morally, on the battlefield or even simple popular opinion.

1. The moral pulpit: This has been pointed out many times: IRON never attacked you. The alliance you claim to be defending never needed defending - and has already taken the moral high road in this matter by accepting peace. If they are taking the moral high-road - yours in the moral low road.

In a syllogism:
GRE will never quit warring IRON until IRON surrenders.
IRON will never surrender to Gre.
GRE will never quit warring IRON.

You are morally wrong: Perma-war just isn't in style these days, old fellow. Thus, in honor of IRON's righteous Jihad against GRE ideals of slavery and indentured servitude, we shall stand firm in the face of your imperialistic and barbarous behavior, IRON MUST and WILL stand up to you, you big, fat bullies you.

2. The battlefield: IRON is kicking the crap out of you.
The Grämlins, 6/11/2010 1:03:36 PM: 1,500,987ns. From 5/12: Around 2,100,000ns.
1,500,987 - 2,100,000 = - 599,013

IRON, 6/11/2010 1:06:37 PM: 4,826,891ns. From 5/12: Around 4,260,000ns.
4,826,891 - 4,260,000 = + 566,891

Gre is not going to force IRON to surrender. As of now, the last 20+ war declarations between the two have been made by IRON, who is increasingly the aggressor. Only about the top 11 Gre nations are currently safe from IRON, who will pull them down and kill them flat if they get too close. Gre is not only choosing death, it's choosing an immoral path to bet there - and thus dishonorable death.

Matt Miller is bring a couple more Gre nations down to the masses right now. Those two are going to be slaughtered. Eventually, all of Gramlins will be in same position if IRON does things patiently and effectively, which they most likely will. It's inevitable, no matter how long it takes: IRON's going to win.

3. Gre just sucks in more ways than any other alliance out there. Y'all are losing the PR battle because the vast majority of those who are paying attention to this issue, agree. Most believe that your claims have no bearing on the reality of your situation, much less that they are legitimate claims. You've lost of the court of public opinion.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 June 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1276391423' post='2335586']Because we're right.
[/quote]
No, you aren't, under any interpretation.
In my equally valuable opinion, y'all of Gre reek like rotting buffalo boogers.

[Yggdrazil]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='13 June 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1276447423' post='2336222']
If you're not tied to surrender terms then you have a choice to attack Gremlins and face the consequences, this is choice you make by defining the outcome to your alliance, which will most likely result in you being smashed, it is still a choice. whether you deem it stupid or not does not deflect away from the fact it is still a choice.


You could choose to sit and spout on about how immoral Gremlins are and how they should be beaten into pulp, or you could choose to back your stance and help IRON. simply saying it is stupid (which I agree it would be) does not instantly stop it from being a choice.
[/quote]
All choices end at the end of a gun.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Saying we have a choice to help IRON is different from saying we have a non-coerced choice. Having a "choice" is nothing since you have a choice to do anything that is not physically impossible. Having a non-coerced choice is very important.

Saying an alliance could help Gre, but if you do, we have this tank pointed at your head, is a choice, but not a non-coerced choice.

[Hiro Nakara]

I'm arguing there is a choice for alliances that are not under terms to engage. They can CHOOSE to accept the consequences of that action for the betterment of there friend or they can CHOOSE to sit here and bleat on. If you deemed it to risky then that's fine, I'm not bothered either way. But whichever way you try to bend the word Choice, it still means the same thing. and people have choice here.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Stetson' date='12 June 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1276404695' post='2335879']
I guess I really enjoy being ignored since I'm going to try this for a fourth time...



And if it's not to much to ask Matthew, could you please explain to me how turning yourself in is not giving up all freedom to make decisions for yourself? Oh, right, generally when a criminal (which is how I believe you guys refer to IRON) turn themselves in if they don't like the sentence they can just walk away. Got it!
[/quote]


As I stated before, we are not at war with TOP, TORN or any other alliances you listed.
We are at war only with IRON. Therefore, we are discussing the surrender process for IRON.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='RustyNail' date='12 June 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1276407546' post='2335943']
I equate this attitude to the following:

Lonely guy goes out and finds a woman he wants to love him, he imprisons her and tells her that he will not let her free until she tells him she loves him and wants to be with him and MEANS IT SINCERELY.


yah.....not gonna happen and I'm fairly certain what the mental diagnosis of said individual would be. He may think he is fully justified and perfectly in the right, however, as a menace to society and someone that infringes on the rights and freedoms of others (whether HE thinks it's ok or not).....morality and society will disagree and he will be dealt with.

No matter if anyone in Gre actually thinks what they are doing is right or not, that is far from relevant at this point.
[/quote]


[quote name='Lord Rune' date='13 June 2010 - 05:39 AM' timestamp='1276432753' post='2336099']
If IRON/DAWN surrendered now, that would prove just how remorseful (or whatever Gre are demanding they feel this week) they really are!
[/quote]



Reading Comprehension


The Gremlins aren't asking IRON to "feel" any certain way emotionally.
It's quite obvious how they feel.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Shimmer]

Has IRON issued surrender terms to Gramlins yet?

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 June 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1276456695' post='2336320']
As I stated before, we are not at war with TOP, TORN or any other alliances you listed.
We are at war only with IRON. Therefore, we are discussing the surrender process for IRON.
[/quote]
That's such a load of crap.

Any particular reason you are at war with just us? You are such moralists, after all. TOP and TSO should have to turn themselves in just because they were on the other side. You shouldn't even have to fight them.

For a paperless alliance, you sure do try to do things by the book.

Also....I found this little gem.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='01 April 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1270141533' post='2243950']
[quote name='Matt Miller' date='01 April 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1270140688' post='2243924']
Yet here I sit with an open war slot and 25 Gramlins in range. But please, do tell me more about it being solely on IRON.
[/quote]
Build more infrastructure and I'll happily declare on you.
It's not that you and I have never tangoed.
As for your vacant slot, I'll see what I can do.
[/quote]

I can't wait.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 June 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1276319737' post='2334628']
Reading Comprehension.
[/quote]


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 June 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1276351903' post='2334924']
Reading Comprehension.
[/quote]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 June 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1276457031' post='2336324']
Reading Comprehension
[/quote]

Damn record's broken again. Someone help this man out.

Edited June 13, 2010 by The Warrior

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='The Warrior' date='13 June 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1276458881' post='2336344']
Damn record's broken again. Someone help this man out.
[/quote]

He dosent need any help, as expected, matthew is performing brilliantly.

[Cataduanes]

wow this thread is still chugging along! no doubt it will hit 400 pages soon...hell don't you people know the world cup is on?

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='13 June 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1276459800' post='2336350']
He dosent need any help, as expected, matthew is performing brilliantly.
[/quote]
No, he isn't.

This entire thread Matthew has responded to many points, but he has missed out the ones that are key.

Why IRON?

How is it morally wrong?

In addition, his repeated use of 'Reading Comprehension' is the most pompous thing that has been said in the thread, and makes him come across to everyone (excluding you) as a self-righteous $@!. People don't need to read better. Matthew himself needs to write better. Bad definitions, mistaken though process on how this world works, incorrect view of what a surrender is...I should not have to go on.

The Gremlins who have posted in this thread have not improved anyone's impression of their alliance, they have worsened it. You have people from all aspects of the world coming in here to tell Matthew that he is wrong. And he is.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='13 June 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1276461498' post='2336364']
No, he isn't.

This entire thread Matthew has responded to many points, but he has missed out the ones that are key.

Why IRON?

How is it morally wrong?

In addition, his repeated use of 'Reading Comprehension' is the most pompous thing that has been said in the thread, and makes him come across to everyone (excluding you) as a self-righteous $@!. People don't need to read better. Matthew himself needs to write better. Bad definitions, mistaken though process on how this world works, incorrect view of what a surrender is...I should not have to go on.

The Gremlins who have posted in this thread have not improved anyone's impression of their alliance, they have worsened it. You have people from all aspects of the world coming in here to tell Matthew that he is wrong. And he is.
[/quote]

Yes he is, you genius's are still replying to him and arguing. I assume you all are reading your own posts, perhaps I shouldnt. You know he is wrong, gre screwed up, Matthew is full of !@#$ (something like those sentiments) If you all were reading your own posts, and believed the content I cant fathom why you would need or want to reply to matthew in any form at all, again perhaps its intelligence.

He's winning, your game.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='13 June 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1276461498' post='2336364']


The Gremlins who have posted in this thread have not improved anyone's impression of their alliance,
[/quote]
And being that maybe only 3 Gremlins did that it shows how beaten their morale is.

They know they are wrong and I think its about time IRON takes white peace off of the table and show them you aren't @$%^%! around anymore.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='13 June 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1276457809' post='2336333']
That's such a load of crap.

Any particular reason you are at war with just us? You are such moralists, after all. TOP and TSO should have to turn themselves in just because they were on the other side. You shouldn't even have to fight them.

For a paperless alliance, you sure do try to do things by the book. [/quote]

Are you suggesting that GRE should be at war with TOP and TORN?
Go find a time machine and bring it up in January.
For now, there is no reason for you to continue to spout it except to whine that we're at war with you and not them.

It is possible to stand for a cause without standing in front of a train.

[quote]Also....I found this little gem.



I can't wait.
[/quote]

I've fought Matt Miller before, multiple times. He's a great guy to go to war with. Classy and capable.
Right now he's not in my range. I suspect that eventually he will build up and declare war on me.

Please do us all a favor and spare your keystrokes about why [Person A] hasn't attacked [Person B], it is irrelevant.
Your attempt at baiting isn't going to work on me.


[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='13 June 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1276465371' post='2336404']
And being that maybe only 3 Gremlins did that it shows how beaten their morale is.

They know they are wrong and I think its about time IRON takes white peace off of the table and show them you aren't @$%^%! around anymore.
[/quote]

Or it could be that we don't care what the OWF clamors on about.
I'm here for the sport of it and to answer questions for those genuinely interested in understanding. My friends and allies pretty much all have their own discussion threads with us in their own forums away from the hilarious posturing of the disconnected (and deliberately ignorant) parties here.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Baldr]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='13 June 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1276455304' post='2336303']
I'm arguing there is a choice for alliances that are not under terms to engage. They can CHOOSE to accept the consequences of that action for the betterment of there friend or they can CHOOSE to sit here and bleat on. [/quote]

It wouldn't be for the "betterment of their friend". Anyone who joins in now is likely to convince some alliance tied to Gramlins to get involved. As things stand, IRON is winning. Someone from outside joins in to "help" IRON, and that might bring in new alliances and completely change the outcome. Not a good idea.

[quote name='TimLee' date='13 June 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1276457732' post='2336331']
Has IRON issued surrender terms to Gramlins yet?
[/quote]

They've offered white peace, many times. Gramlins prefers to die, and IMO, they deserve to.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Baldr

[ccabal86]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='13 June 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1276465371' post='2336404']
And being that maybe only 3 Gremlins did that it shows how beaten their morale is.

They know they are wrong and I think its about time IRON takes white peace off of the table and show them you aren't @$%^%! around anymore.
[/quote]

Unfortunately there is no way that could work out. Even if they miraculaously agreed to some sort of terms, there is no way they would deliver them and we'd have to go back to war kicking their stupid @#$% again.

All we want from GRE is to get the hell off our backs, hence the offer for white peace. But it'll end soon enough even if they don't take it.

Edited June 13, 2010 by ccabal86

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Baldr' date='13 June 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1276466660' post='2336415']
It wouldn't be for the "betterment of their friend". Anyone who joins in now is likely to convince some alliance tied to Gramlins to get involved. As things stand, IRON is winning. Someone from outside joins in to "help" IRON, and that might bring in new alliances and completely change the outcome. Not a good idea.



They've offered white peace, many times. Gramlins prefers to die, and IMO, they deserve to.
[/quote]


Again, as I have already stated, I'm not arguing if it's a bad idea, I'm arguing the fact that it is a choice not to enter or a choice to enter. As Matthew so anally puts it "reading comprehension" <<<<---btw that is a joke in case you take it another way.

The guy earlier made a comment on they are NOT allowed to join, I was merely correcting his comment saying they choose not to.