The New Grämlins

[WalkerNinja]

Y'know, something about new about this thread occurred to me today. All along, GRE has held that this is some sort of criminal prosecution, and that you don't negotiate with criminals. I've always sort've glossed over that point, but for some reason I got to thinking about it today.

Law Enforcement officials have [i]Police Negotiators[/i]. These are the guys that talk criminals into giving themselves up, letting the hostages go, telling them where the bodies are--that sort of thing. I have a fair idea that police negotiators don't run their negotiations by saying, "Surrender unconditionally, then we will tell you what will happen to you." Probably the criminal would have some questions.

"What do you mean surrender?"

"I mean come out with your hands up, unarmed, and lay on the ground spread eagle."

"But what happens then."

"Well, you've made some bad choices. We're going to put handcuffs on you and put you in a detention center."

"Do I have any rights?"

"Sure! You'll get a court appointed attorney, there'll be a trial. You're innocent until proven guilty. But we have to take you into custody now to keep anyone else from getting hurt. If you're found guilty, you'll have to go to prison for a few years."

"Could I have some bananna pudding while I think it over?"

"I guess so, but we're not turning on the lights."

"Great, I love banana pudding."

Happens all the time. They're generally very successful. Just my two cents.

[necAnt]

Weeks, if not month, have passed, since i have read those messaging boards,
but funny, how live is, nothing has changed.
I hope, that those ppl i know at grämlins, find peace soon, and the same i hope for my friends within iron.
guys, remember, war is expensive, you pay with the loose of money, blood and, most important, political influence (just as an information, as it seems, that some of you didn´t got the message till now).
Please end it sooner than later.

And with this the Ant is back to his hybernation.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 July 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1279087245' post='2370583']
I did then, and still do believe that Ram has good ideas for direction. One simply has to get past some friendly surface abrasiveness.
[/quote]

Wow. Just wow. This invalidates every other bit of your argument when it comes to the death of the relationship between the Gramlins and TOP. Ramirus treated us like dirt on a regular basis. He was highly abrasive and insulting, and he made it clear that he'd have no use for us until we elected some certain members of the alliance into government. He said he'd never like us and that, because he was Judicator (IA), we shouldn't worry about what he had to say. In sum, he refused to communicate with us on any respectful level. At the same time, he regularly worked behind the scenes against us.

Maybe you're unaware of just how horrid he is in conversation, though I doubt it. More likely you're just in denial, as you seem to view him as a Cybernations deity.

Rest assured that TOP isn't the only alliance he treated like garbage. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people who have spoken to him at the government level have found him to be unapproachable and insufferable. Of course, I doubt you'll ever believe that such is what he's like.

[Gizmo]

[quote name='Broncos98' date='14 July 2010 - 04:53 AM' timestamp='1279108395' post='2370776']
Didn't you get the memo, Glen? Ram is his God, and Matthew is here to spread Ram's word. Ram is currently enjoying his last supper in CN, and soon his apostles will suffer the same fate.
[/quote]
Okay that's just really funny!

Unfortunately for Gre it is also very accurate as well.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Crymson' date='15 July 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1279149905' post='2371757']
Wow. Just wow. This invalidates every other bit of your argument when it comes to the death of the relationship between the Gramlins and TOP. Ramirus treated us like dirt on a regular basis. He was highly abrasive and insulting, and he made it clear that he'd have no use for us until we elected some certain members of the alliance into government. He said he'd never like us and that, because he was Judicator (IA), we shouldn't worry about what he had to say. In sum, he refused to communicate with us on any respectful level. At the same time, he regularly worked behind the scenes against us.

Maybe you're unaware of just how horrid he is in conversation, though I doubt it. More likely you're just in denial, as you seem to view him as a Cybernations deity.

Rest assured that TOP isn't the only alliance he treated like garbage. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people who have spoken to him at the government level have found him to be unapproachable and insufferable. Of course, I doubt you'll ever believe that such is what he's like.
[/quote]
lol pot and kettle black

[Bob Janova]

Come on now, I've had my differences with both, but Crymson is a mere pale grey.

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 July 2010 - 07:41 AM' timestamp='1279086098' post='2370560']

I urge you to act honorably and surrender to be absolved of your actions.

[/quote]
I admit, something I haven't quite figured out is how you actually can absolve anyone of anything?

Surrender would imply defeat, obviously, we have/are defeating you, so surrender due to defeat is obviously not what you can or should be after (and you made remarks that seem to accept this reality, for which I have to commend you).
So since option 1 of 2 options doesn't work, ie surrender due to military pressure, surrender due to moral pressure is the option you chose and expect us to take.
This is where I am curious:
You attacked IRON without treaty obligations, the very large part of posters in this thread would consider that an aggressive attack, even though I will go so far and believe you that you had indeed defensive intentions when you attacked IRON. But since you at least aren't the attacked party, I do wonder where moral comes into the equation. The only parties that were attacked by IRON (and by DAWN) were the members of CnG. Curiously enough, IRON and DAWN both settled on a peaceful solution many months ago. Ie the victim of an aggressive attack agreed to a peace treaty with the attacker. That would by most definitions mean that IRON has found a morally acceptable solution with the victims of the attack, who also refused to accept any forms of verbal acknowledgement of guilt (by for example not being interested in a freely offered apology from all of TIDTT).
So morally speaking, gRAMlins as someone who themselves are aggressors, after the two parties concerned by the attack (ie the attacker and attacked) have found a solution, have really no part in this at all.

That would leave gRAMlins acting as some sort of moral police/moral authority, to basically serve as judicial institutions in a criminal case, where the civil case found its solution already by a settlement agreement between the two parties involved. This however seems rather dubious, for many reasons. The major one is that gRAMlins fought on the opposing side of NpO, which by attacking tech raiders, started the war in the first place, and fought for moral reasons. The precedent set by the winning side is that one may not start wars for moral reasons, thus gRAMlins directly participated in combating either the establishment of Polaris as a moral authority/moral police, or helped destroy it.
In either case, it doesn't make for a strong case of gRAMlins having established themselves as moral authority/moral police on Planet Bob.
The way in which IRON and DAWN where both asked to surrender to gRAMlins, ie first an unspecified disarmament, then unconditional surrender to be presented terms without negotiations, made the establishment of gRAMlins as moral police even less likely, simply by the fact that since we lack official supranational institutions here, the public opinions of most nation rulers is what sets the common standards for Planet Bob. And by just looking at the length of this thread, the sheer amount of posters calling the terms immoral, with a broad consensus even among those parties of the coalition for which gRAMlins fought, they all strongly disagreed with those terms.

So in every way gRAMlins could have established themselves as moral authority on this planet, they chose in fact to lessen their acceptance as widely accepted moral authority through their own actions.


All of this then leads me back to my original question, however more bluntly formulated: Why do you guys believe you actually are in any way concerned by the officially solved conflict of IRON/DAWN and CnG? You are neither militarily able to enforce a surrender, nor are you morally in any way in the position to demand such even despite not having the military capabilities to enforce it. And why of all things do you, when most who participated in this thread here, even from your own coalition, when your leader proved himself to be a liar, to be in the position to absolve anyone, and any group, of their sins?

Basically: You yourself strongly require an absolution of your sins, you are in no way shape or form able to absolve others of theirs, much less act morally superior when the last 4 months of your actions as an alliance as well as those of your leader proved you to be one of CN's most morally inferior alliances of all times.

Edited July 15, 2010 by shilo

[mike717]

In my opinion, shilo, you make good points, but they're the same points you've been making and so i dont understand why you are arguing. Crap i can even address these at this point.

[quote name='shilo' date='15 July 2010 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1279206622' post='2372891']
I admit, something I haven't quite figured out is how you actually can absolve anyone of anything?

Surrender would imply defeat, obviously, we have/are defeating you, so surrender due to defeat is obviously not what you can or should be after (and you made remarks that seem to accept this reality, for which I have to commend you).
So since option 1 of 2 options doesn't work, ie surrender due to military pressure, surrender due to moral pressure is the option you chose and expect us to take.
This is where I am curious:
You attacked IRON without treaty obligations, the very large part of posters in this thread would consider that an aggressive attack, even though I will go so far and believe you that you had indeed defensive intentions when you attacked IRON. But since you at least aren't the attacked party, I do wonder where moral comes into the equation. The only parties that were attacked by IRON (and by DAWN) were the members of CnG. Curiously enough, IRON and DAWN both settled on a peaceful solution many months ago. Ie the victim of an aggressive attack agreed to a peace treaty with the attacker. That would by most definitions mean that IRON has found a morally acceptable solution with the victims of the attack, who also refused to accept any forms of verbal acknowledgement of guilt (by for example not being interested in a freely offered apology from all of TIDTT).
So morally speaking, gRAMlins as someone who themselves are aggressors, after the two parties concerned by the attack (ie the attacker and attacked) have found a solution, have really no part in this at all.[/quote]

Gre does not find that solution to be acceptable to them. Whether they are right or wrong in this matter, it has been argued about ad naseum, continuing to argue will not change this.

[quote]That would leave gRAMlins acting as some sort of moral police/moral authority, to basically serve as judicial institutions in a criminal case, where the civil case found its solution already by a settlement agreement between the two parties involved. This however seems rather dubious, for many reasons. The major one is that gRAMlins fought on the opposing side of NpO, which by attacking tech raiders, started the war in the first place, and fought for moral reasons. The precedent set by the winning side is that one may not start wars for moral reasons, thus gRAMlins directly participated in combating either the establishment of Polaris as a moral authority/moral police, or helped destroy it.[/quote]

Gre does not view themselves as fighting on the side of NpO, they view themselves as fighting on the side of their friends MK. Whether they are right or wrong in this matter, it has been argued about ad naseum, continuing to argue will not change this.

[quote]In either case, it doesn't make for a strong case of gRAMlins having established themselves as moral authority/moral police on Planet Bob.
The way in which IRON and DAWN where both asked to surrender to gRAMlins, ie first an unspecified disarmament, then unconditional surrender to be presented terms without negotiations, made the establishment of gRAMlins as moral police even less likely, simply by the fact that since we lack official supranational institutions here, the public opinions of most nation rulers is what sets the common standards for Planet Bob. And by just looking at the length of this thread, the sheer amount of posters calling the terms immoral, with a broad consensus even among those parties of the coalition for which gRAMlins fought, they all strongly disagreed with those terms.

So in every way gRAMlins could have established themselves as moral authority on this planet, they chose in fact to lessen their acceptance as widely accepted moral authority through their own actions.
[/quote]

Gre does not care what anyone else thinks, they only care what they think. Whether they are right or wrong in this matter, it has been argued about ad naseum, arguing will not change this.


[quote]All of this then leads me back to my original question, however more bluntly formulated: Why do you guys believe you actually are in any way concerned by the officially solved conflict of IRON/DAWN and CnG? You are neither militarily able to enforce a surrender, nor are you morally in any way in the position to demand such even despite not having the military capabilities to enforce it. And why of all things do you, when most who participated in this thread here, even from your own coalition, when your leader proved himself to be a liar, to be in the position to absolve anyone, and any group, of their sins?

Basically: You yourself strongly require an absolution of your sins, you are in no way shape or form able to absolve others of theirs, much less act morally superior when the last 4 months of your actions as an alliance as well as those of your leader proved you to be one of CN's most morally inferior alliances of all times.[/quote]

Plese see everything i just stated above. You aren't going to change their mind and they arent going to change your's. it's been 240+ pages, and honestly guys from IRON and DAWN, i don't see why you're still beating your heads against the wall, when it's pretty clear there is no solution other than simply finishing the war.

Edited July 15, 2010 by mike717

[Crymson]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='15 July 2010 - 06:52 AM' timestamp='1279198306' post='2372753']
Come on now, I've had my differences with both, but Crymson is a mere pale grey.
[/quote]

I don't think Synth has much perspective on things when it comes to Ramirus.

[Daimos]

PRIDE...a deadly sin.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Crymson' date='15 July 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1279217654' post='2373176']
I don't think Synth has much perspective on things when it comes to Ramirus.
[/quote]
Yeah,
I dislike Ramirus much much more than I dislike you
Doesn't stop me seeing that you pair are evil twins

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='mike717' date='15 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1279216891' post='2373152']...
Plese see everything i just stated above. You aren't going to change their mind and they arent going to change your's. it's been 240+ pages, and honestly guys from IRON and DAWN, i don't see why you're still beating your heads against the wall, when it's pretty clear there is no solution other than simply finishing the war.[/quote]Both sides are necessary to finish a war and Gramlins are obviously not willing to accept any solution which is not a complete destruction of their own alliance. I guess that we have no choice but to give it to them.
If they want to discuss other possible resolutions of the conflict, they can find us in our IRC channels and our forums.
(Yeah, I know that they are ready to accept our unconditional surrender, but this is not an option).

[mike717]

[quote name='Golan 1st' date='15 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279220863' post='2373266']
Both sides are necessary to finish a war and Gramlins are obviously not willing to accept any solution which is not a complete destruction of their own alliance. I guess that we have no choice but to give it to them.
If they want to discuss other possible resolutions of the conflict, they can find us in our IRC channels and our forums.
(Yeah, I know that they are ready to accept our unconditional surrender, but this is not an option).
[/quote]


when i said "finish the war", i more or less meant, "take them all to ZI/ZT"

Edited July 15, 2010 by mike717

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='mike717' date='15 July 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1279224447' post='2373344']
when i said "finish the war", i more or less meant, "take them all to ZI/ZT"
[/quote]

They're on their way. Stargirl actually was brought to 0 NS before she deleted to inactivity.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Dom Zak

[Crymson]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='15 July 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1279220491' post='2373245']
Yeah,
I dislike Ramirus much much more than I dislike you
Doesn't stop me seeing that you pair are evil twins
[/quote]

Yeah, sure. You dislike him so much, yet you still regularly regurgitate the "facts" and styles of thinking he fed to you for so long.

[eejack]

[quote name='Crymson' date='14 July 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1279149905' post='2371757']Maybe you're unaware of just how horrid he is in conversation, though I doubt it. More likely you're just in denial, as you seem to view him as a Cybernations deity.

Rest assured that TOP isn't the only alliance he treated like garbage. I think you'll find that the vast majority of people who have spoken to him at the government level have found him to be unapproachable and insufferable. Of course, I doubt you'll ever believe that such is what he's like.
[/quote]

I can vouch for this. While my dealing with Ram was fairly limited during my time at Citadel he was abusive, threatening and extremely cocksure about his own place in the cyberverse. While he may or may not have completely orchestrated the Karma war it was his stated opinion that he did indeed do so and Old Guard only survived the conflict due to his 'sufferance'. Honestly, I am still perplexed how good solid folks and leaders like SynthFG, MatthewPK, Chill and Oman Nams gave way to such a boorish and inept leader.

I keep expecting to find out this is a joke and someone just forget to tell the punch line.

EEjack

[kotic]

I don't care who's doing the withdraw from accepted terms it's still bad PR.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='EEjack' date='16 July 2010 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1279247769' post='2373984']
Honestly, I am still perplexed how good solid folks and leaders like SynthFG, MatthewPK, Chill and Oman Nams gave way to such a boorish and inept leader.

[/quote]

You EEjack have asked one of the greatest riddles the cyberverse has seen and the names you have listed are a short glimpse of a long list of who's who from the citadel bloc and beyond. Ramirus was a known entity, heck even you knew it back when OG was in citadel, was it a year or 2 that you first became aware of this this "boorish and inept leader"?

The good solid folks, which are numerous are complicit in allowing this to go on this long, Ramirus could have been removed from Gramlins years ago. Many of the same people whinning in this thread, participated in a thread at gramlins where that very subject was discussed at length, they did nothing. Wait, no Im sorry, they left then !@#$%*ed about the gramlins decline from the arm chair.

It was entertaining the first 100 or so times, now its ridiculous on par with Ramirus lack of humility. If he had that one simple trait and was able to harness it in key situations, he would be running this place and pulling the strings he thinks he pulls/pulled. I have a lot of respect for Ramirus, I just dont like him personally but thats on me, not him, he's been consistant for years. To bad after all this time it still has you and seemingly a lot of other people perplexed.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='15 July 2010 - 08:10 AM' timestamp='1279206622' post='2372891']
I admit, something I haven't quite figured out is how you actually can absolve anyone of anything?[/quote]
We are at war with you. We, and only we, can absolve you of your actions which caused our entrance.
Who else would possibly have the authority to absolve you in the eyes of The Gremlins.
Sometimes such absolution may accompany disengagement from our friends; there is no reason that it must.
In this case, we're after some very simple and specific things.

[quote]Surrender would imply defeat, obviously, we have/are defeating you, so surrender due to defeat is obviously not what you can or should be after (and you made remarks that seem to accept this reality, for which I have to commend you).[/quote]
Surrender [b]typically[/b] follows defeat but it doesn't always indicate such. As I've stated before, surrendering is a functional equivalent of submitting yourself in response to your wrongdoing.
Just because a party *can* escape restitution for their actions doesn't make it the right thing to do.
If I were to shoplift and I made it out of the store the odds of my being "caught" are quite low; but that doesn't mean it isn't right to acknowledge my wrongdoing.

[quote]So since option 1 of 2 options doesn't work, ie surrender due to military pressure, surrender due to moral pressure is the option you chose and expect us to take.
This is where I am curious:
You attacked IRON without treaty obligations, the very large part of posters in this thread would consider that an aggressive attack, even though I will go so far and believe you that you had indeed defensive intentions when you attacked IRON. But since you at least aren't the attacked party, I do wonder where moral comes into the equation. The only parties that were attacked by IRON (and by DAWN) were the members of CnG. Curiously enough, IRON and DAWN both settled on a peaceful solution many months ago. Ie the victim of an aggressive attack agreed to a peace treaty with the attacker. That would by most definitions mean that IRON has found a morally acceptable solution with the victims of the attack, who also refused to accept any forms of verbal acknowledgement of guilt (by for example not being interested in a freely offered apology from all of TIDTT).[/quote]

Treaties are irrelevant. I know you're sick of hearing this from me but I will keep repeating it as long as you keep bringing them up.

Surely you must see the folly in depending on the sincerity of an apology offered under duress?
Especially considering so many IRON and DAWN members here have made it clear that you are not "sorry"


[quote]So morally speaking, gRAMlins as someone who themselves are aggressors, after the two parties concerned by the attack (ie the attacker and attacked) have found a solution, have really no part in this at all.[/quote]

Gremlins play the part in this situation because nobody else is left to demand that you honorably make yourself accountable.
This is circumstantial.

[quote]That would leave gRAMlins acting as some sort of moral police/moral authority, to basically serve as judicial institutions in a criminal case, where the civil case found its solution already by a settlement agreement between the two parties involved. This however seems rather dubious, for many reasons. The major one is that gRAMlins fought on the opposing side of NpO, which by attacking tech raiders, started the war in the first place, and fought for moral reasons. The precedent set by the winning side is that one may not start wars for moral reasons, thus gRAMlins directly participated in combating either the establishment of Polaris as a moral authority/moral police, or helped destroy it.
In either case, it doesn't make for a strong case of gRAMlins having established themselves as moral authority/moral police on Planet Bob.[/quote]

The Gremlins don't seek to be a moral police for the world. We merely seek for you to submit [b]because your behavior in this particular instance[/b] was wrong [b]and impacted us and our friends directly[/b].
That said, please don't try to spin this as if the war was fought over "tech raiding." That's the same tripe we all heard during the Unjust War.


[quote]The way in which IRON and DAWN where both asked to surrender to gRAMlins, ie first an unspecified disarmament, then unconditional surrender to be presented terms without negotiations, made the establishment of gRAMlins as moral police even less likely, simply by the fact that since we lack official supranational institutions here, the public opinions of most nation rulers is what sets the common standards for Planet Bob. And by just looking at the length of this thread, the sheer amount of posters calling the terms immoral, with a broad consensus even among those parties of the coalition for which gRAMlins fought, they all strongly disagreed with those terms.[/quote]

Many of those who took the time to actually understand the process and the motivation are no longer outraged.
This thread has been dominantly driven by people claiming things that GRE never said and never did.
Even if you disagree with our actions after all this discussion you surely must acknowledge that a significant amount of the jabs in this thread are opportunistic and/or delivered by people who haven't put forth the effort to understand [b]either[/b] of our positions.

Your disarm orders will be delivered following your surrender and when you are quartered. The terms will be delivered and you will [b]choose[[/b] to accept or decline them.
This has always been the case since day one.

[quote]So in every way gRAMlins could have established themselves as moral authority on this planet, they chose in fact to lessen their acceptance as widely accepted moral authority through their own actions.[/quote]

We don't seek to be any such moral authority for the planet. Your actions directly impacted us and our friends and our demands are contingent upon this specific war.


[quote]All of this then leads me back to my original question, however more bluntly formulated: Why do you guys believe you actually are in any way concerned by the officially solved conflict of IRON/DAWN and CnG? You are neither militarily able to enforce a surrender, nor are you morally in any way in the position to demand such even despite not having the military capabilities to enforce it. And why of all things do you, when most who participated in this thread here, even from your own coalition, when your leader proved himself to be a liar, to be in the position to absolve anyone, and any group, of their sins?[/quote]

As stated above: this is specifically related to how your actions affected our friends and us.
Furthermore, our friends discussed with us alternatives to our demands and we presented one in the form of an ESA amendment.
We've made it clear your white peace is unacceptable; any bright ideas?

[quote]Basically: You yourself strongly require an absolution of your sins, you are in no way shape or form able to absolve others of theirs, much less act morally superior when the last 4 months of your actions as an alliance as well as those of your leader proved you to be one of CN's most morally inferior alliances of all times.
[/quote]

Non Sequitor.

Our actions of the last 4 months, in fact, demonstrate our principles and our convictions. That we have not compromised, even when facing "the world" (as you claim) should demonstrate this quite adequately to you.
I still affirm that we are not, and never have been, demanding anything unjust, immoral, insidious or tyrannical.

Our path to peace is justified, appropriate and honorable given the circumstances.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
[b]and impacted us and our friends directly[/b][/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Did I miss something? While I know that IRON's attack on MK and CnG directly impacted, say, MK and CnG, how did it impact Gremlins [directly]? You after all have no treaties with them and no obligations, so really any impact their actions had on you would exist only because you wanted it to.[/color]

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='16 July 2010 - 02:06 AM' timestamp='1279260388' post='2374262']
Did I miss something? While I know that IRON's attack on MK and CnG directly impacted, say, MK and CnG, how did it impact Gremlins [directly]? You after all have no treaties with them and no obligations, so really any impact their actions had on you would exist only because you wanted it to.
[/quote]

Shhh...RV, he's having one of his delusions where he and Gramlins are still relevant to world events. He'll snap out of it soon enough and resume blankly staring at the sunset again soon.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252'][b]As stated above: this is specifically related to how your actions affected our friends and us.[/b]
Furthermore, our friends discussed with us alternatives to our demands and we presented one in the form of an ESA amendment.
We've made it clear your white peace is unacceptable; any bright ideas?[/quote]As for the bolded part, so stop crapping about moral. You are trying to improve your strategic position. I must admit that, seeing the results of your brilliant policy so far, this is a huge success.

We have no interest in amending the ESA.
Gramlins were members of the winning coalition. You could get quite a lot back then. However, you refused to join the peace settlement. You chose to continue the war, causing us additional direct and indirect damages.
Now you want to go back to the ESA as if nothing happened since.
No, Gramlins, this is not going to happen. You lost the war. Whether you realize this already or not isn't really important anymore. You won't get ANYTHING as a reward for your idiocy.
You want alternatives to white peace?
Here are some:
1. A complete destruction of Gramlins (looks like the option of your choice).
2. Gramlins making an apology and pay reparations for the damages you caused since the ESA.
3. Eternal war until there is no Gramlin left to fight (not because we want it, but because we are unable to push into your minds the realization that you have been defeated in the war).

Edited July 16, 2010 by Golan 1st

[ZeTyon]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
We, and only we, can absolve you of your actions which caused [u][b]our entrance[/b][/u].
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/TigerTankTyon/PI/EU3/-2stab.jpg[/IMG]

I just hope that CN doesnt run like Magna Mundi, because then you will really miss those 2 stability.

[amad123]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
We are at war with you. We, and only we, can absolve you of your actions which caused our entrance. Who else would possibly have the authority to absolve you in the eyes of The Gremlins. [/quote]
Actually I went to confess all my sins to Father Joseph last week before mass. I specifically mentioned that we attacked Gramlin nations that attacked our treaty partners (Iron) and I asked for absolution. He told me I was absolved of all my sins if I said three Hail Mary's and did a Rosary. So I'm sin free at the moment.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
As I've stated before, surrendering is a functional equivalent of submitting yourself in response to your wrongdoing. [/quote]
Well we were wrong in starting a major war which we couldn't win. We will know better next time, rest assured. And at the time ESA was signed we felt sorry enough for our actions to agree to restitution to Gramlins, however the citizens of my nation no longer feel sorry at all for attacking Gramlin nations and daily call out for more blood. We are building nukes as fast as we can and the bloodthirst to nuke Gramlins until they no longer exist continues to grow. I'd say Gramlins not only failed at ESA but since then their failure continues to grow.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
Surely you must see the folly in depending on the sincerity of an apology offered under duress? Especially considering so many IRON and DAWN members here have made it clear that you are not "sorry" Gremlins play the part in this situation because nobody else is left to demand that you honorably make yourself accountable. This is circumstantial. [/quote]
You might have got an insincere apology several months ago. Now you get the finger. But I think you made the right choice and you are getting what you deserve.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
The Gremlins don't seek to be a moral police for the world. [/quote]
ROFL



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
We merely seek for you to submit [b]because your behavior in this particular instance[/b] was wrong [b]and impacted us and our friends directly[/b]. [/quote]
Yeah we said it was "wrong" and Father Joseph absolved us so now what?



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
Even if you disagree with our actions after all this discussion you surely must acknowledge that a significant amount of the jabs in this thread are opportunistic and/or delivered by people who haven't put forth the effort to understand [b]either[/b] of our positions. [/quote]
We understand your position and offer that only truly worthy response "Nuts" or maybe it should be "Nukes".



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
Your disarm orders will be delivered following your surrender and when you are quartered. The terms will be delivered and you will [b]choose[[/b] to accept or decline them. This has always been the case since day one. [/quote]
Not going to happen, nuking you guys is just too much fun.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
We've made it clear your white peace is unacceptable; any bright ideas? Non Sequitor. Our actions of the last 4 months, in fact, demonstrate our principles and our convictions. [/quote]
White Peace or nukes are your choices, personally I'm glad you have chosen nukes.



[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
I still affirm that we are not, and never have been, demanding anything unjust, immoral, insidious or tyrannical. Our path to peace is justified, appropriate and honorable given the circumstances.
[/quote]
We don't really care what you are demanding anymore, notice the lack of interest on our part for your terms. You just keep them safe and hidden away, that way no one will ever know the true depth of your idiocy.

Personally I'd like to thank the Gramlins for teaching us how to defeat an alliance with a superior upper tier. They have provided us invaluable training that is sure to come in handy in the future. I know your friends on the other side of our treaty web are thrilled with your actions. You have much to be proud of.


.

[flak attack]

[quote name='ZeTyon' date='16 July 2010 - 03:27 AM' timestamp='1279265254' post='2374291']
[IMG]http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/TigerTankTyon/PI/EU3/-2stab.jpg[/IMG]

I just hope that CN doesnt run like Magna Mundi, because then you will really miss those 2 stability.
[/quote]
Since you must have missed it: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79442

That looks like a CB to me.