Ashoka the Great Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='chefjoe' date='10 March 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1268258278' post='2221282'] Look, here is the bottom line. We all need a few months to rebuild our warchests after this latest war. Hence there isnt going to be a war regarding this issue(unless something drasticly changes in this situation). Sooo can we just put this thread away for 60 days and revisit it when we all are more capable of blowing the !@#$ out of each other? Thats my vote after seeing 22 pages that make my head hurt. /me shrugs [/quote] No. We must babble about this pointlessly for days, eventually devolving into a discussion of the NpO's attack on \m/ for comparative purposes, before moving on to TOP's reps and....oh, I dunno....throw in a "you're just as bad as 'x' was" comment or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='chefjoe' date='10 March 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1268258278' post='2221282'] Look, here is the bottom line. We all need a few months to rebuild our warchests after this latest war. Hence there isnt going to be a war regarding this issue(unless something drasticly changes in this situation). Sooo can we just put this thread away for 60 days and revisit it when we all are more capable of blowing the !@#$ out of each other? Thats my vote after seeing 22 pages that make my head hurt. /me shrugs [/quote] Hell, we are all equally beat up, it might be fun, we can call it the "Bill lock war" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Hey Chefjoe, maybe Echelon could sign an MADP with WTF and that would solve the situation right away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='10 March 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1268258645' post='2221287'] No. We must babble about this pointlessly for days, eventually devolving into a discussion of the NpO's attack on \m/ for comparative purposes, before moving on to TOP's reps and....oh, I dunno....throw in a "you're just as bad as 'x' was" comment or two. [/quote] Unfortunate but true, I to would like to see a "DoW" or a "U suck and we'll be back later" statement and be done with it. All this waiting around for a possible, maybe, something is putting a dampener in raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaitlinK Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 22 pages later the fact remains you can't call it an attack on an alliance when no alliance exists to be attacked. PC did their homework and put more effort into the research than most raiders would have. I am curious (and perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere) How much has Echelon collected in reparations for these nations in the past (July 09-Feb 10) when these nations were raided before PC latest raid? Echelon, those that fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it in other words... this has Caffine's style of FA work written all over it. Ummm good luck with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memoryproblems Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='KaitlinK' date='10 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268259061' post='2221293'] 22 pages later the fact remains you can't call it an attack on an alliance when no alliance exists to be attacked.[/quote] Really, just because a wiki entry was edited by an party not affiliated by either SBA or Echelon - read the wiki edit history (I wouldn't really count the one on October 17th, it was added hastily and then due to other factors the merger didn't happen, it was removed), you say they don't exist anymore? Your only evidence supporting was a wiki edit based on false information, there was never any OWF annoucement, their treaty remains on Echelon's treaty lists both on our own wiki entry and on our own forums, and 13 members remain on the alliance affiliation, four of which have alliance seniority recorded to have started AFTER the October 17th date their wiki formerly (and falsely) noted that they merged into Echelon. [quote name='KaitlinK' date='10 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268259061' post='2221293']PC did their homework and put more effort into the research than most raiders would have. [/quote] I'm not seeing that at all. They relied too heavily on the wiki, a resource that is publicly editable by anybody, even those not affiliated with the alliance. There was a plethora of other evidence, easy to find, that would have averted this situation entirely. [quote name='KaitlinK' date='10 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268259061' post='2221293'] I am curious (and perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere) How much has Echelon collected in reparations for these nations in the past (July 09-Feb 10) when these nations were raided before PC latest raid? [/quote] At the time, the raided nation failed to provide logs of the damage reports, and as such we could not evaluate damages so the issue was dropped. Edited March 10, 2010 by memoryproblems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcurley Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1268177913' post='2219837'] Enjoy forty pages of the usual people strutting and bleating about how they're not going to pay reparations after they aggressively attack a sovereign alliance. [/quote] I am so glad you don't strut around the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldr Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='KaitlinK' date='10 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268259061' post='2221293'] 22 pages later the fact remains you can't call it an attack on an alliance when no alliance exists to be attacked. [/quote] Brilliant. You're arguing that SBA doesn't exist, despite all evidence that it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannatech Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Baldr' date='10 March 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1268257432' post='2221268'] Most of the very vocal supporters, the ones screaming "PC did nothing wrong, it's all Echelon's fault, and if it comes to war, we'll ride with PC" are people from Athens, \m/, FOK, The Corporation, etc. That is, alliances that tech raid, alliances that have tech raided other alliances. Bottom line, they don't care. Their theory is that if you aren't big enough or well connected enough to stop them from tech raiding you, that they have the right to do what they want. All of the "Echelon didn't make it clear that this was a protected alliance" stuff ignores the fact that PC raided that alliance twice before, and that Echelon has contacted PC before to say "Hey, you're raiding an alliance we are protecting". PC knew SBA was protected, they just didn't care. And they aren't going to start caring unless significant military force lines up against them. Beating up on smaller nations/alliances is what they do. Personally, I think the SBA nations who were attacked made a mistake in accepting peace. If you don't fight back, you give the tech raiders what they want. [/quote] You don't know the situation....I buffed up my military completely and bought 5 guerilla camps, 5 barracks, and fully deployed my military. Even then they had so much tech that I couldn't get odds over 30 percent. Not to mention they all had nuclear weapons. I wasn't about to try anything stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilien Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='kpcurley' date='10 March 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1268259927' post='2221310'] I am so glad you don't strut around the forums! [/quote] Do I know you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaitlinK Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='chefjoe' date='10 March 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1268258278' post='2221282'] Look, here is the bottom line. We all need a few months to rebuild our warchests after this latest war. Hence there isnt going to be a war regarding this issue(unless something drasticly changes in this situation). Sooo can we just put this thread away for 60 days and revisit it when we all are more capable of blowing the !@#$ out of each other? Thats my vote after seeing 22 pages that make my head hurt. /me shrugs [/quote] ChefJoe, I know its been a while since I have told you this but I do you! [quote name='memoryproblems' date='10 March 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1268259547' post='2221303'] I'm not seeing that at all. They relied too heavily on the wiki, a resource that is publicly editable by anybody, even those not affiliated with the alliance. There was a plethora of other evidence, easy to find, that would have averted this situation entirely. [/quote] I think your forgetting about them actually contacting a nation wearing the AA, & checking their forums for signs of life? [quote name='memoryproblems' date='10 March 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1268259547' post='2221303'] At the time, the raided nation failed to provide logs of the damage reports, and as such we could not evaluate damages so the issue was dropped. [/quote] So your telling me this group of nations has NEVER been raided by anyone other than PC in all the time since their disbandmentmergewhateveryourcallingittoday thing? Really? Cause that would make these 12 sizeable nations the luckiest CN players in the game. CN raiders if this is true I am disappointed in each and every one of you, and you should all be ashamed of yourselves... Edited March 10, 2010 by KaitlinK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Augusta Antonia' date='10 March 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1268256290' post='2221258'] Well said MD. You beat me to it, you hit the nail on the head. All the semantics that have been tossed about by the neo-hegemony side boils down to one thing (which btw several posters have outright stated): Hatred of Echelon. Plain and simple. [/quote] If this is true, I would suggest that years of thumbing their noses at people, threatening people with their allies' strength...general lapdog mentality...sowed those seeds. For the hatred of them, the blame rests only with them, and a few...."select"...government members who cant seem to figure out how to thrive in the world with a bullseye on their back. I suggest asking my friends in the Kingdom for lessons, they mastered that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobiash Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I for one would like to thank Echelon for bringing this to the OWF. Now we all know what to expect from Athens, FOK, The Corporation & MK. (I hope that they, atleast in private, told PC that behavior like this is not accepteble). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puppet Master Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Rush Sykes' date='10 March 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1268261506' post='2221342'] If this is true, I would suggest that years of thumbing their noses at people, threatening people with their allies' strength...general lapdog mentality...sowed those seeds. [/quote] Right because doing the same back to them is sooo much better. And the wheel continues to spin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='Rush Sykes' date='10 March 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1268261506' post='2221342'] If this is true, I would suggest that years of thumbing their noses at people, threatening people with their allies' strength...general lapdog mentality...sowed those seeds. For the hatred of them, the blame rests only with them, and a few...."select"...government members who cant seem to figure out how to thrive in the world with a bullseye on their back. I suggest asking my friends in the Kingdom for lessons, they mastered that role. [/quote] so essentially you are stating because Echelon did this, now it is time for it to be done to Echelon? how quaint. i don't have much love at all for Echelon, but even i feel that regardless of Echelon, SBA deserves better than this kind of treatment. Echelon be damned, what did SBA do to be treated this way? can anyone honestly say? /me waits for the "SBA chose Echelon as protectors" replies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='tobiash' date='10 March 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1268263036' post='2221379'] Now we all know what to expect from Athens, FOK, The Corporation & MK. (I hope that they, atleast in private, told PC that behavior like this is not accepteble). [/quote] You know nothing of Corp to include us in a comment like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgoods45 Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 [quote name='tobiash' date='10 March 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1268263036' post='2221379'] I for one would like to thank Echelon for bringing this to the OWF. Now we all know what to expect from Athens, FOK, The Corporation & MK. (I hope that they, atleast in private, told PC that behavior like this is not accepteble). [/quote] Speaking for myself and not the rest of Athens, I was pretty lulzed over it seeing as I don't give a rats $@! about SBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Jaym Il Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I can't believe some of the arguments being used here. My question to the people defending this is, when you take the "They're my ally or my ally's ally" factor out, do you really believe that PC hasn't made a mistake? Are you really attempting to blame the fact that they did not research enough on Echelon? In the end, Echelon government should have been approached. Wiki said they were disbanded/merged? Most alliances protect the disbanded AA for some time after the fact, which leads to the conclusion of checking with Echelon. Former member said they were no longer treatied? Check with Echelon to confirm. Whatever way you look at the situation, the responsibility lies with the raider to check with the current/former protector to make sure that they are no longer protecting the AA. That said, I don't believe PC did this with any malicious intent. I also believe that in their eyes, they thought that they had checked all that they needed to. This was nothing more than a simple mistake, however when you make a mistake, you should take responsibility for it and do what's right instead of what's easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePePe Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) The point is this, though they may not admit it: If you take all bias away and examine the facts, PC knows they dropped the ball on this one. The question is not whether they did or not, because the information was out there had the proper research been done. The question is: Does PC even [i]care[/i] that they offended Echelon/SDA? Is their ambivalence toward Echelon's proposal justified and do they perhaps have no reason to care? From a mostly-objective standpoint, that is my view. I cannot answer those questions having not experienced everything firsthand, so perhaps those that have can answer those questions. Either way, as I mentioned on one of the first pages, this thread will not make PC give you reps. So, if this was Echelon's only intent, than the thread was to no avail. If, however, this is a propaganda or political move, I'd say that with 23 and counting pages, this could have a positive effect for Echelon. I guess only time will tell. Edited March 10, 2010 by RePePe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobiash Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 [quote name='Kevin McDonald' date='11 March 2010 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1268263460' post='2221395'] You know nothing of Corp to include us in a comment like that. [/quote] No, you are right and I am sorry for putting you there I simply forgot to remove you after C/P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) [quote name='KaitlinK' date='10 March 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1268259061' post='2221293'] 22 pages later the fact remains you can't call it an attack on an alliance when no alliance exists to be attacked. PC did their homework and put more effort into the research than most raiders would have. I am curious (and perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere) How much has Echelon collected in reparations for these nations in the past (July 09-Feb 10) when these nations were raided before PC latest raid? Echelon, those that fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it in other words... this has Caffine's style of FA work written all over it. Ummm good luck with that? [/quote] This is the dumbest post I have ever seen. The alliance clearly existed for over 1000 days. Just because an out of date wiki and a former member say one thing doesn't make it fact. Should probably be checking with current members. The interesting thing to point out is I believe the last time PC raided SBA, was right when Echelon was 2 weeks removed from the Karma war and weren't in a position to defend. And now they raid SBA as Echelon is about 2 weeks out of TOP conflict.......I see a pattern here and everything else is just a smoke screen. PC is being opportunistic, and taking a chance that Echelon can't defend SBA and has no back up. All this crap about wiki and nation bios is a smoke screen to fool you people into thinking this wasn't pre-meditated. Edited March 11, 2010 by AirMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Anglia Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 [quote name='Haflinger' date='10 March 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1268258789' post='2221289'] Hey Chefjoe, maybe Echelon could sign an MADP with WTF and that would solve the situation right away [/quote] Heey you know we do have friends there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Anglia Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Also hai Kait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 [quote name='AirMe' date='10 March 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1268266777' post='2221478'] All this crap about wiki and nation bios is a smoke screen to fool you people into thinking this wasn't pre-meditated. [/quote] You don't have to like us, but don't let hatred fool you into believing preposterous theories. You're better then that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Choader' date='10 March 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1268267627' post='2221495'] You don't have to like us, but don't let hatred fool you into believing preposterous theories. You're better then that. [/quote] It isn't a preposterous theory, it is a pattern. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of what you want. EDIT: If for some reason you were on the other side of this issue, I would be supporting you as much as I am supporting Echelon. Edited March 11, 2010 by AirMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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