Accepting the Consequenses of War

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='13 March 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1268512277' post='2224626']
According to the (lack of) CB, the "picture" was anything to do with the game.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you that their DoW was bad. The sentiment it expressed was not the reason the rest of us entered, nor was it the reason TOP expressed in planning. You wont get any argument about that from me.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='13 March 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1268507957' post='2224527']
DAWN's rep total for instance is absolute insanity for an alliance of their size and structure.
[/quote]

I will admit I have not looked closely at the numbers for DAWN (or TSO and TORN for that matter), and at first glance they do seem rather high. They seem to be built of high-end nations though (100% MP coverage), so they are perhaps not totally ridiculous. If you take a look at TOP's counteroffer, they have DAWN paying 1/10th as much as TOP is paying, which is a higher percentage than in C&G's offer.

250 slots for tech, ~110 for money, that's a minimum of about 50 days. I'm not a fan of seeing such high numbers for a small alliance, but at the same time they participated in the preemptive strike the same as the rest of you, why should their relative punishment be any less?

I do find it unusual that TORN's reps are lower when they are twice the size of DAWN.

[greatmagnus]

[quote name='President Sitruk' date='13 March 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1268510888' post='2224595']
a perfect example of people forgetting that the "picture" was \m/-Polar, not TOP-CnG. but this isnt the place to discuss that since there's an 80+ page thread in the subforum.
[/quote]

I wasn't talking about whether it is one war or two, and to be honest I could not care less over the semantics of such a thing. TOP/IRON/whoever wanted CnG removed as a power, tried to BS their way into it, and now that it did not go well the try to make themselves be the victims. Before ANYONE accuses CnG and company of being the bad guys, WE were the ones who were blindsided. Attacking without a CB is about as "hegemonic" as it gets. IRON got a pretty sweet deal from the Karma peace and decided to throw that away, (thanks to TOP actually) so they obviously have not learned the error of their ways.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1268509756' post='2224570']
Lol, this is hilarious. TOP and company broke the established rules of warfare for Bob
[/quote]
[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1268509756' post='2224570']
TOP and company broke the established rules of warfare
[/quote]
[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1268509756' post='2224570']
established rules of warfare
[/quote]
[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1268509756' post='2224570']
rules of warfare
[/quote]
[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1268509756' post='2224570']
[b][i]Bob[/i][/b]
[/quote]

Right

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='13 March 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1268513357' post='2224644']
I will admit I have not looked closely at the numbers for DAWN (or TSO and TORN for that matter), and at first glance they do seem rather high. They seem to be built of high-end nations though (100% MP coverage), so they are perhaps not totally ridiculous. If you take a look at TOP's counteroffer, they have DAWN paying 1/10th as much as TOP is paying, which is a higher percentage than in C&G's offer.

250 slots for tech, ~110 for money, that's a minimum of about 50 days. I'm not a fan of seeing such high numbers for a small alliance, but at the same time they participated in the preemptive strike the same as the rest of you, why should their relative punishment be any less?

I do find it unusual that TORN's reps are lower when they are twice the size of DAWN.
[/quote]

They are built off what [i]used to be[/i] high end nations. Their relative punishment is not any less, it is relatively greater as you say 1/10th TOP's offer was considered the least the would be able to pay by their assessment of the demands against them. Add in that ODN is asking to ZI one of them members after the conflict is over and you get very harsh terms for DAWN.

Our terms are where they are because we have been fighting some classy alliances. tR and the Rosular Kingdom have both not asked for any reps from us. IAA is the only outlier and they more than made up for the others' generosity.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='mythicknight' date='13 March 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1268513722' post='2224650']
Right
[/quote]
While there aren't really any rules of warfare, it's pretty much the norm to have a certain level of respect.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='13 March 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1268514084' post='2224652']
While there aren't really any rules of warfare, it's pretty much the norm to have a certain level of respect.
[/quote]

Believe me, I am very respectfully nuking the crap out of my enemies You and he are arguing different things.

[franciscus]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='13 March 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1268513357' post='2224644']
I will admit I have not looked closely at the numbers for DAWN (or TSO and TORN for that matter), and at first glance they do seem rather high. They seem to be built of high-end nations though (100% MP coverage), so they are perhaps not totally ridiculous. [b]If you take a look at TOP's counteroffer, they have DAWN paying 1/10th as much as TOP is paying, which is a higher percentage than in C&G's offer.[/b]

250 slots for tech, ~110 for money, that's a minimum of about 50 days. I'm not a fan of seeing such high numbers for a small alliance, but at the same time they participated in the preemptive strike the same as the rest of you, why should their relative punishment be any less?

I do find it unusual that TORN's reps are lower when they are twice the size of DAWN.
[/quote]

I will address only the bolded part in your post:
CnG&co's first offer for DAWN was for a total of 22.5k tech, more than 2/3 of our total tech at the time + 1 member to be left on the battlefield for untold punishment of untrue accusations. That's 1/10th of TOP's, too.
While we feel able to pay reps possibly equal or slightly lower than TORN's, due to the NS similarities (and "crime", lol) DAWN's offered reps in the initial talks were similar to TOP's.

Edited March 13, 2010 by franciscus

[franciscus]

silly internet, delete please.

Edited March 13, 2010 by franciscus

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='greatmagnus' date='13 March 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1268513504' post='2224647']
I wasn't talking about whether it is one war or two, and to be honest I could not care less over the semantics of such a thing. TOP/IRON/whoever wanted CnG removed as a power, tried to BS their way into it, and now that it did not go well the try to make themselves be the victims. Before ANYONE accuses CnG and company of being the bad guys, WE were the ones who were blindsided. Attacking without a CB is about as "hegemonic" as it gets. IRON got a pretty sweet deal from the Karma peace and decided to throw that away, (thanks to TOP actually) so they obviously have not learned the error of their ways.
[/quote]

LOL. Now we are hegemonic because we did a pre-emptive attack. Do you just call everyone you are at war with the hegemony? Can you ever fight someone without making them out to be worse than they really are?

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='14 March 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1268517841' post='2224708']
LOL. Now we are hegemonic because we did a pre-emptive attack. Do you just call everyone you are at war with the hegemony? Can you ever fight someone without making them out to be worse than they really are?
[/quote]

Yes, because as we all know "pre-emptive attack"="Attacking without a CB"

Now, I don't think the actions you took were hegemonic and I don't think the amount of reps we are asking for make us hegemonic either. When either side starts with this stupid argument all we get is a pathetic back-and-forth which doesn't achieve anything apart from making everybody involved look like idiots.

EDIT: Typo

Edited March 13, 2010 by Ryuzaki

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='13 March 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1268519272' post='2224729']
Yes, because as we all know "pre-emptive attack"="Attacking without a CB"

Now, I don't think the actions you took were hegemonic and I don't think the amount of reps we are asking for make us hegemonic either. When either side starts with this stupid argument all we get is a pathetic back-and-forth which doesn't achieve anything apart from making everybody involved look like idiots.

EDIT: Typo
[/quote]

I don't think any one is accusing you of "hegemony" in the sense that the CN universe seems to equate the word. You are "hegemonic" in that you have a preponderance of power and are using it to try and get what we deem to be unacceptable. You and we do not see eye to eye on rep amounts, and thus we are still fighting and negotiating. Thats fine with us, I'm looking at going for the TORN gold medal for wars. Already got the Gold for nooks eaten, might as well rack the commendations up while I can

I think what we're poking fun of in this thread is the fact that you guys have "hegemonic" power, and are giving us a bit of a beat down (TORN is down over 70% NS since this started), and yet you insist on accusing us of "war crimes" and breaking "established rules of war". Somehow it is not enough for us to lose a bunch of NS, we must also be evil baby eaters as well. Can't we ever just have a good old fashioned slug feast? You won we lost end of story?

[shilo]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='13 March 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1268520368' post='2224744']
I think what we're poking fun of in this thread is the fact that you guys have "hegemonic" power, and are giving us a bit of a beat down (TORN is down over 70% NS since this started), and yet you insist on accusing us of "war crimes" and breaking "established rules of war". Somehow it is not enough for us to lose a bunch of NS, we must also be evil baby eaters as well. Can't we ever just have a good old fashioned slug feast? You won we lost end of story?
[/quote]
That's likely the most significant and only really interesting difference between the Supercomplaints hegemony and the former NPO centered hegemony:
both are quite hegemonic, but Supercomplaints can't just roll an alliance cause they don't like them, they need to attempt to morally justify all their acts

In that sense, no one can say they are one and the same, I'll admit that

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='shilo' date='14 March 2010 - 10:44 AM' timestamp='1268520580' post='2224748']
That's likely the most significant and only really interesting difference between the Supercomplaints hegemony and the former NPO centered hegemony:
both are quite hegemonic, but Supercomplaints can't just roll an alliance cause they don't like them, they need to attempt to morally justify all their acts

In that sense, no one can say they are one and the same, I'll admit that
[/quote]

When has Supercomplaints rolled an alliance?

[Banksy]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='14 March 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1268522024' post='2224771']
When has Supercomplaints rolled an alliance?
[/quote]
Oh- you know....that alliance. I forget it's name. Um...back a while ago I think. I'm sure they did it.

*cough*[/sarcasm]

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='shilo' date='13 March 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1268520580' post='2224748']
That's likely the most significant and only really interesting difference between the Supercomplaints hegemony and the former NPO centered hegemony:
both are quite hegemonic, but Supercomplaints can't just roll an alliance cause they don't like them, they need to attempt to morally justify all their acts

In that sense, no one can say they are one and the same, I'll admit that
[/quote]
What?

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='13 March 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1268520368' post='2224744']
Can't we ever just have a good old fashioned slug feast? You won we lost end of story?
[/quote]
It would be nice, but due to the political nature of the game it won't happen very often (mainly for backlash such as TOP is receiving)

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

People also need to start paying attention to the alliances they are asking reps from. TOP can easily move nine or ten billions in reparations: we are/were higher-end nations. That said, if you ask us massive direct tech reps - or DAWN or TORN for that purpose -, after ZIing us, you're essentially asking us to ZT ourselves. That's how I took the first offer to DAWN. On the other hand, massive tech reps from a mass-member alliance just mean they will use their lower-end nations as permanent tech sellers.

Now, new numbers are mostly indirect tech which seems to be more logical: it uses our slots and means we can't grow tech for a certain ammount of time, thus cancelling our tech advantage without necessarily ZTing us.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[shilo]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='14 March 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1268522024' post='2224771']
When has Supercomplaints rolled an alliance?
[/quote]
TPF comes to mind, I hope you haven't suppressed that memory yet

[flak attack]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='13 March 2010 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1268522617' post='2224779']you're essentially asking us to ZT ourselves.[/quote]
Yes, asking for you to directly send 1/4 of your tech, and what was about 1/5 at the time of the offer, if the same as making you ZT yourself. Seems pretty light after the reps you put on Polar after you preemptive struck them.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='14 March 2010 - 06:56 AM' timestamp='1268514084' post='2224652']
While there aren't really any rules of warfare, it's pretty much the norm to have a certain level of respect.
[/quote]

There is no respect, perhaps at some point in the past when the world was a more stable place the was some rules & respect.

But now nobody is interested in peace and people will pick fights with anyone they think they can beat.

The phrase "If you don't like it, do something about it" is the motto of this new era.

Diplomacy , coexistence, peace and respect are now concepts in peril of being forgotten.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='14 March 2010 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1268553705' post='2225192']
There is no respect, perhaps at some point in the past when the world was a more stable place the was some rules & respect.

But now nobody is interested in peace and people will pick fights with anyone they think they can beat.

The phrase "If you don't like it, do something about it" is the motto of this new era.

Diplomacy , coexistence, peace and respect are now concepts in peril of being forgotten.
[/quote]

That sure is something.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='flak attack' date='14 March 2010 - 04:58 AM' timestamp='1268543003' post='2225116']
Yes, asking for you to directly send 1/4 of your tech, and what was about 1/5 at the time of the offer, if the same as making you ZT yourself. Seems pretty light after the reps you put on Polar after you preemptive struck them.
[/quote]

So is this whole war to get revenge on us for what we did to Polar? Funny considering we did enter this war on their side...

[Voytek]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='15 March 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1268576393' post='2225308']So is this whole war to get revenge on us for what we did to Polar?[/quote]

You're right, that's [i]exactly[/i] what he said.

(actually it wasn't; you could really do with a lesson in logic and debate skills along with most of your side's OWF posters)

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Voytek' date='14 March 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1268576931' post='2225312']
You're right, that's [i]exactly[/i] what he said.

(actually it wasn't; you could really do with a lesson in logic and debate skills along with most of your side's OWF posters)
[/quote]

He's saying we deserve these reps because of what we did to Polar. So we are paying for our past actions. That sounds like revenge to me.

And your side sure is one to criticize about OWF posting.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='15 March 2010 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1268580968' post='2225336']He's saying we deserve these reps because of what we did to Polar. So we are paying for our past actions. That sounds like revenge to me.[/quote]
No he's not, he's using the size of the reps you gave to Polar as a point of comparison to show that a) the terms being offered to you are pretty damn light and b) you don't have any room to complain.

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' date='15 March 2010 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1268580968' post='2225336']And your side sure is one to criticize about OWF posting. [/quote]
Yes we are. Thanks!
(There have been a few bad posts from us to be sure, but you have like 5 or 6 people that appear to be making it their mission to post as badly and as [i]consistently[/i] badly as they possibly can)

Edited March 14, 2010 by Voytek