Karma for Sparta

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:01 AM' timestamp='1267427103' post='2209678']
...I think you're failing to grasp the concept of circular argument. Let me break it down for you:

I asked the question "How do we prove the accusations against Sparta false".

You answered by listing the individual accusations that made up the category "accusations against Sparta", and telling us that proving them all false would prove the statement false.

So you told us that proving the conclusion was true would make the conclusion true... that's a circular argument. Re-phrasing the conclusion you assumed to be true doesn't change anything.
[/quote]
Well, first of all you shouldn't have needed to ask the question you mentioned above in the first place. That's your first problem.

Your second:

Gtting mad at someone for starting to spell out the methods by which you prove the whole [see: 'accusations'] wrong (by splitting it into distinct pieces and picking them apart one at a time) is a tad ridiculous, actually. He was just trying to help you get started, since you apparently needed help with that; rather nice of him, don't you think?

[quote name='Pedron Niall' date='01 March 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1267427433' post='2209682']
Yes, I said that to prove you are right [b]you must prove it[/b] and you have failed to do so because you made no logical argument against the OP's implications. I am asking you to prove that Sparta's military record is not as poor as the OP suggests and that Sparta's foreign affairs have been honourable and not simply for the expedience of the moment. [b]Why are you purposely avoiding this question?[/b]
[/quote]
Because you haven't completely laid out how to defend against each accusation, and how to disprove the counter-points that might be made.


edit - added the second quote and its response.

Edited March 1, 2010 by F15pilotX

[Reason]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='01 March 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1267426959' post='2209671']
What's so simple is that those two things can speak for themselves.

No one needs to tell you what we are doing, we don't need to defend our image because there is nothing to be ashamed of. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is capable of making an informed decision, (despite many examples to the contrary) all you have to do is be able to tell the difference between information and dribble.
[/quote]
That's great, but I am not a person who is in a position and knows enough about Sparta to know this automatically. I told Olaf that, as an outside observer, I wish he had responded to the OP's arguments so I could see he is right or wrong. Can you please show the evidence or the logic behind why they 'speak for themselves' or provide me somewhere to find it for myself. All I have wanted is to make a fair decision with relevant information but other members of your alliance in this thread have not bothered to even give me a shred of respect in attempting to ask for some.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Pedron Niall' date='01 March 2010 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1267427654' post='2209687']
That's great, but I am not a person who is in a position and knows enough about Sparta to know this automatically. I told Olaf that, as an outside observer, I wish he had responded to the OP's arguments so I could see he is right or wrong. Can you please show the evidence or the logic behind why they 'speak for themselves' or provide me somewhere to find it for myself. All I have wanted is to make a fair decision with relevant information but other members of your alliance in this thread have not bothered to even give me a shred of respect in attempting to ask for some.
[/quote]
Check out the Cyber Nations wiki - to get the information you require (You'll probably get more than the collective amount within this thread, tbh.) all you really need to do is learn about the Karma War, since that's where most of the resentment towards us seems to stem from (See Title.)

Or you could register on our boards and ask, if you care enough to form your own opinion. (Kudos for that, btw.)

Edited March 1, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Pedron Niall' date='01 March 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1267427433' post='2209682']
Yes, I said that to prove you are right [b]you must prove it[/b] and you have failed to do so because you made no logical argument against the OP's implications. I am asking you to prove that Sparta's military record is not as poor as the OP suggests and that Sparta's foreign affairs have been honourable and not simply for the expedience of the moment. Why are you purposely avoiding this question?
[/quote]

Because I already answered it. Just because you made an accusation doesn't mean it's valid, we don't assume an argument is true if it has no proof. They've not provided sufficient proof, therefore I needn't provide any to refute it. I'm going to accuse you of being Almighty Grub because you play Cybernations, now go spend the next 20 minutes trying to prove to me you're not, and stop wasting my time. I'm going to ignore you now.

Same goes for you F15, I'm not even going to bother quoting what you said, it made about as much sense as Pedron's statement did anyway.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

The OP is just mad because he got beat down by CnG's side.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:01 AM' timestamp='1267427103' post='2209678']
I asked the question "How do we prove the accusations against Sparta false".
[/quote]

For bonus points for anyone reading this, how on earth do you "prove" a negative to start with?

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='xR1 Fatal Instinct' date='28 February 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1267427955' post='2209691']
The OP is just mad because he got beat down by CnG's side.
[/quote]

U mad.

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1267427919' post='2209690']Same goes for you F15, I'm not even going to bother quoting what you said, it made about as much sense as Pedron's statement did anyway.[/quote]You Spartans are mighty complementary tonight. First Perl, and now you.


You aren't quoting me because you can't argue against it. If you've looked at stats both here and in the previous global war, there is more than enough proof in those alone to debunk any arguments you might make for your military, so you don't argue against it.

As for your FA, while I despise the methods your alliance has used to put itself in the position it is in, the people running Sparta have been successful for various reasons in keeping you on the winning side for the past year or two, so I bid you no argument there, as it is simply a matter of opinion and personal principles.

[quote name='Aurion' date='01 March 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1267427977' post='2209692']
For bonus points for anyone reading this, how on earth do you "prove" a negative to start with?
[/quote]
By proving that the positive is not true.

I'll take cookies. Chocolate chip, with oatmeal.



edit - added second quote and its response.

Edited March 1, 2010 by F15pilotX

[wolfbain]

to counter on behalf of my alliance, Sparta:

I challenge the opposition to provide proof of said allegations, Post-Karma:

Though I was not present for this war, I'm of the understanding that Sparta did not represent itself well.

This is not under question, the question is wether or not we still act in this fashion.

Until facts are presented to support the claims of the OP' ; I contend that the proper response to an unsupported claim is to like wise offer an unsupported claim.

OP- 'sparta deserves to be rolled for - rep extortion and side-flipping'

Sparta - 'sparta is loyal and honorable'

neither side has established evidence - and as Sparta is the accused the burden of proof lies with the accuser. We await the evidence of our crimes, till then we shall not offer any in rebutal.

Edited March 1, 2010 by wolfbain

[Reason]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1267427919' post='2209690']
Because I already answered it. Just because you made an accusation doesn't mean it's valid, we don't assume an argument is true if it has no proof. They've not provided sufficient proof, therefore I needn't provide any to refute it. I'm going to accuse you of being Almighty Grub because you play Cybernations, now go spend the next 20 minutes trying to prove to me you're not, and stop wasting my time. I'm going to ignore you now.
[/quote]
That is true, an accusation is not automatically valid because it is made. However, it is not false simply because it is made either. I told you that you provided no proof to show the claim is false. Therefore, I stated that I would like you to disprove the OP's accusation. I don't understand why you're playing semantics other than it seems like you're just trying to avoid my question which you still have not answered.

@wilhelm: thank you. I will look it up.

@wolfbain: that was the first decent rebuttal I've seen this entire thread. Thank you for at least arguing against the OP logically and not on fallacies.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Pedron Niall

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1267428335' post='2209696']
As for your FA, while I despise the methods your alliance has used to put itself in the position it is in, the people running Sparta have been successful for various reasons in keeping you on the winning side for the past year or two, so I bid you no argument there, as it is simply a matter of opinion and personal principles.
[/quote]

This coming from somebody wearing an NPO tag... you'll excuse me if I find it hard to take any of this seriously.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Newhotness' date='28 February 2010 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1267426300' post='2209653']
i dont see karma coming back to get sparta. They arent very threatening. Nothing against sparta, but just watching bob, i dont really see anyone complaining about the oppressive sparta and how evil sparta is and all that good stuff. So i voted never
[/quote]

Well, a snake in the grass with no venom is not going to be oppressive, until it starts relying on that rattler and their family that takes others down, and requests reps from everyone and their mother for its' own ineptness.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Chalaskan

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='wolfbain' date='01 March 2010 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1267428399' post='2209697']
to counter on behalf of my alliance, Sparta:

I challenge the opposition to provide proof of said allegations, Post-Karma:

Though I was not present for this war, I'm of the understanding that Sparta did not represent itself well.

This is not under question, the question is wether or not we still act in this fashion.

Until facts are presented to support the claims of the OP' ; I contend that the proper response to an unsupported claim is to like wise offer an unsupported claim.

OP- 'sparta deserves to be rolled for - rep extortion and side-flipping'

Sparta - 'sparta is loyal and honorable'

neither side has established evidence - and as Sparta is the accused the burden of proof lies with the accuser. We await the evidence of our crimes, till then we shall not offer any in rebutal.
[/quote]You can sit and not rebut claims all you want, but that's not going to do anything towards changing peoples' minds.

Have fun waiting.

[uaciaut]

After Alterego quits.


edit:
[quote name='The Big Bad' date='28 February 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1267373095' post='2208354']
Sparta is not an alliance that leads they just follow. The have a complete lack of loyalty to anyone except themselves. So far this has allowed them to slip from side to side. In the grand scheme of things people think of them as irrelevant so they don't get much attention. They have however bean collecting a large group of enemies. Their allies are also aware that they have little value as a military ally and are not well liked or trusted. So I can see Sparta burning within the year if they don't collapse from inactivity and poor leadership first.
[/quote]

This made me laugh. Why were you less prone to say something like this during the Q era? Because every alliance in that bloc (including yours) fit the description.
Please, at least if you're gonna posture to try and bait someone do it better.

Edited March 1, 2010 by uaciaut

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='28 February 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1267428624' post='2209705']
You can sit and not rebut claims all you want, but that's not going to do anything towards changing peoples' minds.

Have fun waiting.
[/quote]

The proof lies in the reps they request from everyone, and the fact that so many of them have been inept in this war...but who needs to prove it?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Pedron Niall' date='01 March 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1267428450' post='2209698']
That is true, an accusation is not automatically valid because it is made. However, it is not false simply because it is made either. I told you that you provided no proof to show the claim is false. Therefore, I stated that I would like you to disprove the OP's accusation. I don't understand why you're playing semantics other than it seems like you're just trying to avoid my question which you still have not answered.

@wilhelm: thank you. I will look it up.

@wolfbain: that was the first decent rebuttal I've seen this entire thread. Thank you for at least arguing against the OP logically.
[/quote]

Here is the kicker: the onus is on the person MAKING the argument to prove it correct, not on the accused to prove it false. They didn't bother. Neither will I. By your logic, I think our arguments, mutually lacking proof, are equally valid and therefore this argument is null unless either one of us bothers to provide proof (though in reality, their failure to support their argument means it ceases to have any value whatsoever and I effectively win). I have no intention of doing so, seeing as the argument is null as is.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 02:26 AM' timestamp='1267428582' post='2209703']
Well, a snake in the grass with no venom is not going to be oppressive, until it starts relying on that rattler and their family that takes others down, and requests reps from everyone and their mother for its' own ineptness.
[/quote]
hsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:26 AM' timestamp='1267428624' post='2209705']
You can sit and not rebut claims all you want, but that's not going to do anything towards changing peoples' minds.

Have fun waiting.
[/quote]
The ones that want all the sides to the story will find them.

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1267428551' post='2209701']This coming from somebody wearing an NPO tag... you'll excuse me if I find it hard to take any of this seriously.[/quote]I'll admit, we screwed up massively pre-Karma.

That, however, does not preclude the fact that thus far in the game, the NPO has had far more impact and success than Sparta; thus, I'm rather confused as to why my tag would make you not take me seriously. Am I not being clear and logical enough in my posts, or is it my horrendous grammar?


This ridiculous idea of yours that ad-hominem arguments are actually valid and of any use needs to stop; really, how can you expect anyone to give your arguments any credit when you continue to use logical fallacies such as that?

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='01 March 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1267428990' post='2209711']The ones that want all the sides to the story will find them. [/quote]
I want only the truth. Since I believe I have it, having seen the facts, it is up to you to change my mind.

Edited March 1, 2010 by F15pilotX

[Aurion]

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1267428335' post='2209696']
By proving that the positive is not true.
[/quote]

That's pretty difficult with a non-absolute positive.

[quote]
I'll take cookies. Chocolate chip, with oatmeal.
[/quote]

...No accounting for taste I guess >_>

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='Aurion' date='01 March 2010 - 02:35 AM' timestamp='1267429164' post='2209714']
[b]That's pretty difficult[/b] with a non-absolute positive.



...No accounting for taste I guess >_>
[/quote]
Agreed, though for different reasons.


They must be better than my own cookies.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='28 February 2010 - 10:33 PM' timestamp='1267428990' post='2209711']
hsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


The ones that want all the sides to the story will find them.
[/quote]

So you admit you can bite by staggering, but have no ability to hurt me other then a bite that is really painless? Good job. I agree.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1267428795' post='2209709']
The proof lies in the reps they request from everyone, and the fact that so many of them have been inept in this war...[b]but who needs to prove it?[/b]
[/quote]

Typically, the ones doing the accusing.

'Course, IC Bob's pretty much Bizarro World. So whatever.

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1267429259' post='2209716']
Agreed, though for different reasons.
[/quote]

I'm sure

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1267429040' post='2209712']
I want only the truth. Since I believe I have it, having seen the facts, it is up to you to change my mind.
[/quote]Familiar with the concept of asking questions?

You don't build your case on: We asked them to prove us wrong, and they didn't. Just sayin'

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1267429323' post='2209718']
So you admit you can bite by staggering, but have no ability to hurt me other then a bite that is really painless? Good job. I agree.
[/quote]
Yeah, sure thing, whatever makes you happy enough to leave this discussion.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1267429040' post='2209712']
I'll admit, we screwed up massively pre-Karma.

That, however, does not preclude the fact that thus far in the game, the NPO has had far more impact and success than Sparta;[/quote]

Hmmm, I wonder if that could be because NPO is YEARS older than Sparta... no of course not, that would make too much sense. Besides, judging by our respective places now, Sparta is having far more success.

[quote name='F15pilotX' date='01 March 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1267429040' post='2209712']
This ridiculous idea of yours that ad-hominem arguments are actually valid and of any use needs to stop; really, how can you expect anyone to give your arguments any credit when you continue to use logical fallacies such as that?


I want only the truth. Since I believe I have it, having seen the facts, it is up to you to change my mind.
[/quote]

Yes, because it was MY idea to start this thread, a thinly veiled attack on Sparta, and It's been me making stupid leaps in logic and baseless accusations this entire time to drag us in to this argument. Of course, it makes so much sense! (and you accused ME of logical fallacy?)

I don't care what you want, your interests aren't compatible with mine, and until they are I have no interest in proving anything to you, nor do I care to change that monolithic one-track NPO mind of yours (if that was even possible to start with, something I highly doubt). You can fling all the insults and accusations you want at Sparta, and I'm going to respond to them by pointing out how poor in character or in substance they are. That doesn't mean I have any interest in what you think, but it is my job to defend Sparta, and that's what I'm going to do.

Fire away, buddy, I've got all night.

[F15pilotX]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='01 March 2010 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1267429643' post='2209724']
Familiar with the concept of asking questions?

You don't build your case on: We asked them to prove us wrong, and they didn't. Just sayin'[/quote]
I didn't build my case on that; I built it on: I have my opinion [a negative one, from your perspective], and if you want to change it [not saying you do - though I would if I were you], then you must disprove it.

Just sayin'