More peace

[Bob Janova]

Glad to see peace. Sad to see that our strength has been used by others to demand extorted reps for wars that they declared.

We're really filling up the Hegemony bingo card in this thread. So far they've been 'justified' by ...
- 'We're not as bad as the Initiative!'
- 'But they agreed to them, they must be ok!' (That makes every surrender ever ok, including those ones that you all complain about like noCB)
- 'We don't care what you think anyway'
- 'The winners set the terms'

Apart from the first one, it's just like being in 2007. You have set reparations that would have been of a record size before Karma, for an alliance which was supporting its allies and which most of you declared on by your own choice. Karma was supposed to mark an end to attacking alliances and then extorting reps from them.

Edit: on a more positive note, a shout-out to Fish Master who put up a good fight and reduced my bill significantly.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Bob Janova

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='28 February 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1267363745' post='2208203']
Glad to see peace. Sad to see that our strength has been used by others to demand extorted reps for wars that they declared.

We're really filling up the Hegemony bingo card in this thread. So far they've been 'justified' by ...
- 'We're not as bad as the Initiative!'
- 'But they agreed to them, they must be ok!' (That makes every surrender ever ok, including those ones that you all complain about like noCB)
- 'We don't care what you think anyway'
- 'The winners set the terms'

Apart from the first one, it's just like being in 2007. You have set reparations that would have been of a record size before Karma, for an alliance which was supporting its allies and which most of you declared on by your own choice. Karma was supposed to mark an end to attacking alliances and then extorting reps from them.

Edit: on a more positive note, a shout-out to Fish Master who put up a good fight and reduced my bill significantly.
[/quote]The fact the terms aren't as bad and are reparations for much more damage makes all the difference. The fact that these are relatively harsh terms for an aggressive alliance of TOOL's size speaks well of the winners here, even if I wouldn't have set them so high.

I'd like to see an official statement that reads "[The Karma war] stands for the complete abolition of reparations."

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Alterego' date='28 February 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1267362568' post='2208194']
They're sore about losing their precious infra and tech. Its not enough for a group of bullies just to beat you up they have to rob you after. They then are surprised when people point out that its not right and their answer is usually that they agreed to give up their money.

Like the post below this, after being beaten up and robbed you are expected to give your bullies a pat on the back and congratulate them on a job well done.
[/quote]
right, your analogy seems to miss a few key points.
If a group of bullies decides to beat you up and then gets stopped by your friends, then the friends of the bullies decide to help out the bullies and loose as well. When things settle down the bullies and their friends get fined.

That sounds more like the events which happened here.

Frankly the amount of whining your side posts is disgusting.

[Letum]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1267354837' post='2208110']
Karma ended crushing terms
[/quote]

This made me laugh.

[clownbag]

To our opponents who were honourable with peace terms, thank you and good luck. 0/

To our opponents who were not so honourable with peace terms, and who frankly disgust me, this will not be forgotten.

[Rocky Horror]

I wonder if anyone is actually ever "disgusted" by reparations. Even the 82k tech reps from noCB just annoyed me, disgust is an emotion that I would've put beyond those that Internet browser games can elicit.

They invented the word "butthurt" for just this kind of occasion.

[Nobody Expects]

Disgraceful Reps.

[King Death II]

Guys stop complaining about the reps.

1. You arent the ones paying
2. TOOL would not have accepted these terms if they thought the reps were too high. If TOOL is ok with them, then you should be too.
3. A lot of nations were destroyed for the alliances taking reps, they want to give those nations a little boost in whatever rebuilding process they have.
4. We won, TOOL lost. If our side wants to take reps, they have every right to take whatever amount they want.

[Letum]

[quote name='King Death II' date='28 February 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1267365165' post='2208225']
2. TOOL would not have accepted these terms if they thought the reps were too high. If TOOL is ok with them, then you should be too.
[/quote]

This argument should really stop being used. Acceptance at gunpoint does not somehow mean that everything is okay. I definitely do not think the reps I'll be paying after this war are okay, and yet I "accepted" them.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Letum

[King Death II]

[quote name='Letum' date='28 February 2010 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1267365293' post='2208227']
This argument should really stop being used. Acceptance at gunpoint does not somehow mean that everything is okay. I definitely do not think the reps I'll be paying after this war are okay, and yet I "accepted" them.
[/quote]

We didnt force anything on them. We gave them our terms, said if you want to take them, take them, if not keep fighting. If they thought reps were too harsh, they could just as easily kept fighting. Most of them were turtles/peace mode anyways so its not like they would have taken more damage.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='King Death II' date='28 February 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1267365165' post='2208225']
Guys stop complaining about the reps.

1. You arent the ones paying
2. TOOL would not have accepted these terms if they thought the reps were too high. If TOOL is ok with them, then you should be too.
3. A lot of nations were destroyed for the alliances taking reps, they want to give those nations a little boost in whatever rebuilding process they have.
4. We won, TOOL lost. If our side wants to take reps, they have every right to take whatever amount they want.
[/quote]

Sigh, since when if an alliance accepting to pay reparations means they are "ok" with it?

[King Death II]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='28 February 2010 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1267365599' post='2208231']
Sigh, since when if an alliance accepting to pay reparations means they are "ok" with it?
[/quote]

Since they started accepting those terms

[Lusitan]

[quote name='King Death II' date='28 February 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1267365701' post='2208232']
Since they started accepting those terms
[/quote]

Lol come on, no one is stupid enough to believe what you just said, go ask Athens what they thought they had to pay a high percentage of their technology in reparations, if it was because they were ok with it.

[Letum]

[quote name='King Death II' date='28 February 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1267365468' post='2208230']
We didnt force anything on them. We gave them our terms, said if you want to take them, take them, if not keep fighting.
[/quote]

Forcing entails using coercive power to make people do what they don't want to do. So yes, that IS forcing.

[ROMMELHSQ]

o/ TOOL

Looks like you kicked their $@! really hard for them to ask such reps

[iamthey]

I have to say these reps are pretty sick (and not in the good way). They are paying roughly 1.6-1.7B or if converted to tech ~60k tech, for coming to the aid of their allies? Reviewing karma, you all levied reps amounting to 1.32B, or 44,000k (tech equivalent) against echelon who also only honored a treaty. Is this some kind of new standard? My respect goes out to those who didn't demand reps, as for the rest .

Note: 1.17B or 39,000k tech, was imposed on TPF. Next to previous standards how is 1.7B on TOOL, an alliance not part of the original core alliances reasonable at all? Looks like opportunism to me.

Edited February 28, 2010 by iamthey

[Alterego]

[quote name='King Death II' date='28 February 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1267365701' post='2208232']
Since they started accepting those terms
[/quote]
The alternative was a continuation of the beatdown and possible destruction of TOOL if they didnt comply with your [u]demands[/u]. They weighed up the excessive reps and possiblle destruction of their alliance and chose the lesser of two evils. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

[necAnt]

edit: forget it, overread an word

Edited February 28, 2010 by necAnt

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='28 February 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1267336300' post='2207702']
T If you've been involved in any backchannels, you'd consider this light compared to what some people were saying. And I highly doubt Sparta will make it difficult on you to pay.
[/quote]

I think your point lacks substance. For now on, I will initially ask for 1 trillion in reps, THEN, reduce it to 500 billion and call it mercy. If anyone complains, I simply will ay "BE THANKFUL, YOU COULD HAVE GOTTEN WORSE."

I understand reps in certain situations, but to say "you'd consider this light compared to what some people were saying," doesn't validate anything really, doesn't make them more merciful, but rather would have made them more redundant (Sparta).

[ty345]

Mia NOOOOOO!!!!!!!

On a serious note, peace!

[Buffalo Niagara]

Its funny how the ZOMG fair reps or its not fair squad turns when the tables are facing the other way.

Many have said it I will too after seeing opportunism at its finest...more of the same. TBH I can understand some of the thoughts of the KARMA folks. But, actions speak MUCH louder than words.

I for one am very disappointed in the rep amount. TBH I hate the use of reps personally, and I definitely would fight my own allies against pushing for reps on an alliance that entered a conflict due to treaty obligations.

I however wish to thank those whom did this, as it continues to make my friends seem more than fair for offering white peace for alliances that wanted out of this mess.

Spin how you wish, reps are to further beat down alliances, just be careful because that tide of influence just might shift and come back to bite you in the.... Bob is taking notice of your actions, and as those have said (about a year ago, KARMA is a....)

And shout out to the "u mad" crew. Nope not mad. Becoming more resolved, so thank you for continuing [b]your [/b]"revenge" doctrine. mkay

Congrats to TOOL for getting peace. If Olympus can do anything to help you please let us know.

GK
Mia

[Voodoo Nova]

Congrats on peace.

[Tyekuso]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='28 February 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1267336300' post='2207702']
This is the one post I wanted to choose out of them all... why... heaven knows.

I'd say Sparta if any combatant in this event was more inclined reps perhaps followed by Nemesis since they took a heavy hit it would appear for their size.

Fact is, they (Sparta) were defending their ally when you jumped in. I know you were defending your ally too, and the chaining, blah blah, but to the victors go the spoils? If you've been involved in any backchannels, you'd consider this light compared to what some people were saying. And I highly doubt Sparta will make it difficult on you to pay.

The issue, in my honest opinion here, is that we've got one side versus another basically saying "Hey, you thief, stop taking reps from this war!" and then going "Of course we'd never have done this to you if the shoe was on the other foot!" But the problem is... we never really would know. It's quite possible in 3 months things get reversed and if alliance such as yourself (no disrespect intended) lay out the same or harsher terms it'll be dubbed fair, right?

Meh... I'm tired of this war. Intelligence goes out the window in it and literally every war front is different from another. So my commenting here has to try and remain objective since I really don't know what went on overall.
[/quote]

What's this?? An extremely intelligent post? What's the OWF coming too?

No one likes paying reps, but it's war. Victors will demand what they desire, tis the nature of war. No hard feelings, even though as a member of TOOl I'll end up sending a bunch out. However, what really shocks me, is the change in tone of MK. I'd never thought that this alliance who strove to fight 'tyranny' with valor and style could allow its members to convert to trolling. Echoing what the dakotans said, it boggles the mind what TOOL did to have MK members want to troll us so viciously.

Seems to me that the old adage holds true in this case. Power corrupts!

[iamthey]

So on one hand unconditionally defending one's allies is venerated and in many cases demanded by the community (see goading, and bullying in TPF war), and yet alliances who act on such a maxim are punished for having 'aggressively' escalated the war. Everyone cheers for 'an interesting war' yet post war acts in such a way that inherently punishes risk and encourages year long stretches where no war takes place. How are these competing realities consistent?

Also note to those saying 'these reps will be easy'.

Only 72 TOOL nations even have over 1k tech, and even fewer have a over 5k infra, and the real question is how many are reliably active? Sure it could be paid off in under a month, but thats with perfect efficiency (on both sides of the exchange). Not every alliance has the ability to muster 100+ nations to IRC for a blitz, and tool doesn't really have the numbers that IRON or NPO had to cushion internal inactivity. Its easy to look at the statistics and on face proclaim that these terms are indeed 'light', but that really overlooks the reality of how that burden will actually fall.

Edited February 28, 2010 by iamthey

[der_ko]

[quote name='Tyekuso' date='28 February 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1267368658' post='2208270']
What's this?? An extremely intelligent post? What's the OWF coming too?

No one likes paying reps, but it's war. Victors will demand what they desire, tis the nature of war. No hard feelings, even though as a member of TOOl I'll end up sending a bunch out. However, what really shocks me, is the change in tone of MK. I'd never thought that this alliance who strove to fight 'tyranny' with valor and style could allow its members to convert to trolling. Echoing what the dakotans said, it boggles the mind what TOOL did to have MK members want to troll us so viciously.

Seems to me that the old adage holds true in this case. Power corrupts!
[/quote]
Don't mind the MK trolling. We are/were very excited to counter-blitz you in the WWE. We stayed up several nights in a row ready to hit you, but you were a no-show. A lot of our members became pretty frustrated and they vent it through trolling.