More peace

[D34th]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='28 February 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1267346424' post='2208010']
Thank you pez you heart warming words mean lots to me Luckily most Nemesis members couldn't give a flying $%&@ about any of you!!! The only people we really care for in this are our direct allies who we entered in with.
[/quote]

"We don't care for what you think" is an amazing argument, congratulations.

[Hiro Nakara]

I wasn't argueing I was making a comment and it's a truthful one But I can see how you would view honest as bad. With you being NpO and all.

[Il Impero Romano]

Well, this sure turned creative. Can't say I really care to much either way though.

Good fight TOOL, sorry about punching you all in the eye, your a rather likable bunch.

[D34th]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='28 February 2010 - 05:40 AM' timestamp='1267346656' post='2208014']
I wasn't argueing I was making a comment and it's a truthful one But I can see how you would view honest as bad. With you being NpO and all.
[/quote]

Now an [i]ad Hominem[/i] argument, another point for you.

[Hiro Nakara]

Yet again another truthful one, but hey ho, as I commented on, you obviously have a problem with that.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='D34th' date='28 February 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1267346557' post='2208012']
"We don't care for what you think" is an amazing argument, congratulations.
[/quote]

I'm willing to have a reasonable one, if you're game.

[juslen]

All I have to say is.. RIA.. LOUD.. you guys are awesome. You are getting a lot of support from R&R on this one, I can tell you that much. Very impressed and proud to call you guys allies

[Gaeta]

Good fight TOOL, the two members that I had the pleasure of battling were most enjoyable...except for their magic nukes. Someone must've given them the codes to my SDI for all the good it did me.

Good luck with the rebuilding and reps jazz

[pezstar]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' date='28 February 2010 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1267346424' post='2208010']
Thank you pez you heart warming words mean lots to me Luckily most Nemesis members couldn't give a flying $%&@ about any of you!!! The only people we really care for in this are our direct allies who we entered in with.
[/quote]


One of our allies is your direct ally, holding the exact same level treaty with us as with you. Because of the nature of the treaty web, most of Nemesis's members should absolutely give the "flying $%&@" you so eloquently described about many of us. We may very well be called upon to defend your pathetic alliance someday.

Don't worry. Thanks to your actions, we'll probably decline to do so. Feel free to continue not caring what anyone thinks of you.

Edited February 28, 2010 by pezstar

[PrideAssassin]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='28 February 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1267346986' post='2208021']
I'm willing to have a reasonable one, if you're game.
[/quote]
I fail to see any reason in 1 billion dollars worth of terms over TOOL's actions in this conflict.
Go ahead and spin it though. It'll be amusing to watch the gymnastics.

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='28 February 2010 - 02:21 AM' timestamp='1267345516' post='2208001']
Oh, most of them can be quite nice when they want. I'm even friends with a few people that I know for a fact have acted like jerks in negotiations and things, though you wouldn't know it talking to them in any other context. To be perfectly honest, I've always been quite sure you act the way you do because you really have no idea what you inherited and I imagine it would make the reactions to it very difficult to understand or put in context.

Attitudes in CN have shifted [I]drastically[/I] over the years, and most of the people complaining today don't know what it was like it legitimately live in fear of having your alliance rolled if you said the wrong thing. Bros used to do a Sims house based on CN called WUT house where he made prominent characters and told stories about what they did in the house with screen grabs. He had bidding going at one point to get to pick a character (or made it was advertising? He did a couple bidding things and I forget which this was). WUT won the bidding by threatening to roll anyone who outbid them. Hell, I was afraid FAN would even notice my alliance existed because they used small alliances for training exercises.

People today have no concept of what living in fear is actually like.
[/quote]
This, most definitely this. The two eras of Planet Bob are just not the same.

[Hiro Nakara]

Don't worry pez, I wont lose sleep over it.

[ForPointSix]

Seeing this OP makes me really wish STA would have given our side of the war a big middle finger, and stuck it out with our friends in the NSO....

[Delta1212]

Edit: In response to Yggdrasil who I apparently forgot to quote.

Fark was held at war for several months during a time in which the term "war chest" hadn't been invented yet and the typical war lasted a week, maybe two. They were held at war because they got a lot of members joining all at once and GOONS was afraid that Fark would be strong opposition. A WUT-sponsored alliance was then formed under Slayer99 who abandoned Fark and then spent the next several months telling everyone that Fark's government was corrupt and they should stop fighting and come joining TotalFark! instead. Then Fark got to pay reps to GOONS and Gen[M]ay and had a viceroy with complete veto-power over all Fark gov decisions installed with no end date.

VE cancelled all of her treaties (being a WUT member at the time) to pursue an independent FA direction shortly after Great War III, with the understanding they'd remain friendly with their old allies. Bilrow, then Triumvir of GGA, decided he wanted to control Green so WUT promptly declared war on ther ex-ally and the war ended in VE's disbandment.

FAN was known for having a literal shoot first, ask questions later attitude that terrorized most smaller alliances. Eventually that got them into trouble and WUT kicked them out and declared war on them the same day. Two months later they surrendered to NPO, decommed everything and stayed that way for several months until the terms were about to run out at which point 1V promptly redeclared on them for having to many people with soldier counts over 20% despite the terms explicitly stating that violators were to be dealt with individually and FAN was not responsible for anyone who didn't follow the terms. FAN was then held at war for two years.

GATO had war declared on them for having let a gov member who had been banned back into gov under an assumed name that the alliance didn't know about unti months after left again. During the course of the war, it was decided that GATO had too many members in peace mode, so NPO declared that anyone who didn't exist peace mode within the week would be PZI'd.

Speaking of which, there used to be only one time of ZI list. Contrary to what is probably popular belief, it was not the modern ZI, but is currently called EZI. This wasn't an evil perpetratedby the ruling alliances. This was just normal punishment that many upstanding alliances did and nobody gave all that much thought to. Imagine living in a world where that is baseline normal. Now imagine that the people who have taken control are the ones who like playing the villains. In comparison to EZI being commonplace and not cosidered bad.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Delta1212

[Fantastico]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='28 February 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1267347391' post='2208029']
This, most definitely this. The two eras of Planet Bob are just not the same.
[/quote]
I'll reply "but no, [i]not this[/i]." I believe most of us complaining do have memories of the old hegemony and that is precisely why we are whining about these terms for TOOL.

Here is a question for you: Now, since you also stated earlier that you find these terms objectionable, what can we do about it? Do we just respectfully state our objections and that's it? Are these terms okay since they are not "as bad" as what we fought against?

Also, I see Delta has another big answer with more heavy reference to the past, is that really what these terms are, a moral comeuppance, some fuzzy relativistic math? Here we post every bad thing the old hegemony did to justify these terms?

[Krack]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='28 February 2010 - 02:58 AM' timestamp='1267347722' post='2208033']
A lengthy history of Cybernations war consequences
[/quote]

Um ... FARK made Ivan drink a glass of milk and pay a dollar. I think we can all acknowledge it's right up there with the worst surrender terms in the history of Cybernations. Let's be honest, not only did it completely humiliate NSO and destroy them for the foreseeable future (at least several hours, right?) ... it ruined TPF's rebuilding too because mhawk lost an aid slot for a couple days.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Krack

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='28 February 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1267348070' post='2208036']
I'll reply "but no, [i]not this[/i]." I believe most of us complaining do have memories of the old hegemony and that is precisely why we are whining about these terms for TOOL.

Here is a question for you: Now, since you also stated earlier that you find these terms objectionable, what can we do about it? Do we just respectfully state our objections and that's it? Are these terms okay since they are not "as bad" as what we fought against?

Also, I see Delta has another big answer with more heavy reference to the past, is that really what these terms are, a moral comeuppance, some fuzzy relativistic math? Here we post every bad thing the old hegemony did to justify these terms?
[/quote]
I didn't take reps. I'm not really interested in people's opinion of them. I do take issue with the constant cries that reps are the worst thing ever because it trivializes all of the considerably worse crap that is actually contained in "ever."

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='28 February 2010 - 03:50 AM' timestamp='1267347246' post='2208028']
I fail to see any reason in 1 billion dollars worth of terms over TOOL's actions in this conflict.
Go ahead and spin it though. It'll be amusing to watch the gymnastics.
[/quote]

To the winner goes the spoils. I fail to see why any other reason is necessary.

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='28 February 2010 - 03:04 AM' timestamp='1267348070' post='2208036']
I'll reply "but no, [i]not this[/i]." I believe most of us complaining do have memories of the old hegemony and that is precisely why we are whining about these terms for TOOL.

Here is a question for you: Now, since you also stated earlier that you find these terms objectionable, what can we do about it? Do we just respectfully state our objections and that's it? Are these terms okay since they are not "as bad" as what we fought against?

Also, I see Delta has another big answer with more heavy reference to the past, is that really what these terms are, a moral comeuppance, some fuzzy relativistic math? Here we post every bad thing the old hegemony did to justify these terms?
[/quote]
Respectfully state your objections and develop your alliances to oppose what you perceive as injustice. If you find yourself on the winning side of the war, though, don't impose brutal reps on them, because frankly they don't deserve it.



Here were NPO "terms" to Legion at one point:
Legion admits wrongdoing
Legion submits to authority of an NPO viceroy
Legion relocates to Grey team (none)
Legion agrees to monthly payments in amounts to be determined (apparently 300 million PER WEEK according to Zhadum's post)
Legion shall support Valhalla candidates on the Purple Senate.



You know you're boned when the terms are "you are our personal bank forever." And then all your treaties are suspended.
Want to join a different alliance? Sorry, you get ZI'd for that.






Stuff like this has left a rather bitter taste in my mouth which I think is rather justified, but I don't consider Sparta to be on anywhere NEAR the plane that NPO used to be, and I think it's important to keep that in mind before jumping on the "Hegemony" bandwagon.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='28 February 2010 - 03:11 AM' timestamp='1267348486' post='2208042']
I didn't take reps. I'm not really interested in people's opinion of them. I do take issue with the constant cries that reps are the worst thing ever because it trivializes all of the considerably worse crap that is actually contained in "ever."
[/quote]

Right-o and I happily tipped my hat to you and the RIA for taking the high road some pages back.

What I find objectionable is your subtle way of suggesting the others receiving reps here might be justified based on some dark ages we want to escape. I do not call that your intent, especially since I applaud the RIA, but dredging up the past here for comparison has that effect.

[Delta1212]

My other option would be to sit here and listen to people claiming that they are as bad or worse than the Hegemony, despite the fact that this is objectively false. If people don't want to invite period relativism then they need to stop invoking it.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='28 February 2010 - 03:50 AM' timestamp='1267347246' post='2208028']
I fail to see any reason in 1 billion dollars worth of terms over TOOL's actions in this conflict.
Go ahead and spin it though. It'll be amusing to watch the gymnastics.
[/quote]

Better save some of that faux moral outrage for yourself, I have no idea what C&G plans, but if I had to guess, it won't be small.

Then the truly amusing part will come when we get to watch you try to justify preemptive strikes.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='28 February 2010 - 03:11 AM' timestamp='1267348524' post='2208044']
Respectfully state your objections and develop your alliances to oppose what you perceive as injustice. If you find yourself on the winning side of the war, though, don't impose brutal reps on them, because frankly they don't deserve it.

Here were NPO "terms" to Legion at one point:
Legion admits wrongdoing
Legion submits to authority of an NPO viceroy
Legion relocates to Grey team (none)
Legion agrees to monthly payments in amounts to be determined (apparently 300 million PER WEEK according to Zhadum's post)
Legion shall support Valhalla candidates on the Purple Senate.

You know you're boned when the terms are "you are our personal bank forever." And then all your treaties are suspended.
Want to join a different alliance? Sorry, you get ZI'd for that.

Stuff like this has left a rather bitter taste in my mouth which I think is rather justified, but I don't consider Sparta to be on anywhere NEAR the plane that NPO used to be, and I think it's important to keep that in mind before jumping on the "Hegemony" bandwagon.
[/quote]

Understand and agreed that our past is awful and we need to learn from it and move far beyond it.

Where I disagree with these terms in light of this past is on several levels:

1. Asking for less reps when no reps at all are justified is still not right
2. Some of those asking for reps, as well as those encouraging them, represent the old hegemony way of thinking
3. Finally, I also recall that the old hegemony started in steps, each set of surrender terms being more severe than the previous,

This is why my volume is so high, when you set down the wrong path, it does not matter how far you have traveled, you are still going the wrong direction.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Fantastico

[Xiphosis]

[quote]Then the truly amusing part will come when we get to watch you try to justify preemptive strikes. [/quote]

Welcome to opposite CN; where dishonor is honor and good is evil.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='28 February 2010 - 03:19 AM' timestamp='1267348998' post='2208050']
My other option would be to sit here and listen to people claiming that they are as bad or worse than the Hegemony, despite the fact that this is objectively false. If people don't want to invite period relativism then they need to stop invoking it.
[/quote]
Right you are that this is not the same as the old hegemony's way. But it's also not a debate to dismiss since what we have here are reduced degrees of a common temperament. That makes this something much more challenging to confront since it is easier for most to speak from moods rather than principles.